Castle Aching

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Madder Valley Railway must have had such a siding

Inside the tunnel through the Madderhorn?

[Annie]

I'm reminded of the K&ESR that had mainline connections at both ends which were used for shunting goods wagons from the SECR lines to the K&ESR goods yards at Robertsbridge  and Headcorn.  What could be described as a semi-closed system I suppose.

[Compound2632]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

PPS: A closed island system has one massive advantage, of course: a good deep moat to keep Midland five-plankers out of the place!

 

No chance. Almost certainly a couple of dozen bought from a second-hand dealer at a budget price around 1908-1914.

[Hroth]

14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No chance. Almost certainly a couple of dozen bought from a second-hand dealer at a budget price around 1908-1914.

Currently stored in the cripples siding....

 

[Andy W]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No chance. Almost certainly a couple of dozen bought from a second-hand dealer at a budget price around 1908-1914.

Or even worse, take Ireland - you'd think that being an island with no trainferries and a different track gauge would make it safe from the Midland - but they went and bought one of the local companies (B&NCR) purely so they could spread Midland inspired rolling stock even wider. They never quite succeeded as the strong minded folk in Belfast seem to have insisted on retaining relatively archaic features rather than the pure gospel according to Derby, and certainly painted NCC on rolling stock rather than MR.

[Edwardian]

13 minutes ago, Annie said:

I'm reminded of the K&ESR that had mainline connections at both ends which were used for shunting goods wagons from the SECR lines to the K&ESR goods yards at Robertsbridge  and Headcorn.  What could be described as a semi-closed system I suppose.

 

Yes, which brings us back to the point that, unless you are modelling the whole line, modelling a closed or semi-closed system is no different from modelling any other stretch of line.

 

Sticking with the Light Railway genre and the K&ESR in particular, to model the K&ESR in full, you would need at least a siding/cassette at each end (Robertsbridge and Headcorn) to feed goods traffic in and out of the system. Others would need such a scenic feed at one end with a terminus at the other.

 

How is that any different from modelling one of the stations and having a traverser/cassette/fiddleyard at each end?  Well, based on Don's idea, it allows you a scenic or semi-scenic feeder at each end where there is a network connection.  This could be represented, perhaps, by a cosmetic siding or two and the adjacent or nearby mainline stations represented on the backscene, if at all.  I suppose you might be able to do this with the SE&CR at Robertsbridge and Headcorn, for example.

 

Otherwise, as I say, if you model anything short of the whole of a closed or semi-closed system, it's not much different from any non-closed stretch of line. Of course, typically on a closed or semi-closed Light Railway, your passenger trains stay 'in system'. But how is this different from, say, a through station or terminus on a mainline company's branchline where, similarly, one has the combination of through goods stock (or services) and a passenger train that goes back and forth confined to the branch (with only the occasional through coach or service)? 

 

Interestingly here, the KE&SR seems to have operated its passenger services as two end-to-end branch lines, meeting at Tenterden. The extent to which wagons worked the whole length, as opposed to just from the ends to the middle, is, perhaps, moot.  Though there appear to have been goods trains from time to time, these appear to have been rare, and most goods were conveyed via mixed trains that, as I say, as a rule tended to run on only half of the line.   

[ianathompson]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Narrow gauge

 

Here, again, for the survival or your system, if it is to be a public railway, there needs to be a connection with the Wider World, but here a transhipment siding with a purely decorative length of SG suffices; there is a transfer of goods, but not of stock*

 

EDIT: * (a) The Leek & Manifold introducing and interesting twist, of course. (b) The Lynton & Barnstaple having a transhipment siding at Barnstaple Town but, apparently often neglected in favour of carting goods by road across the river from the LSWR station at Barnstaple Junction.

 

The advantage odf the NG, if you are so inclined, is that every nook and cranny of the system can be modelled in their entirity.

As you point out that does not preclude transfer traffic but the transhipment facilities can be modelled.

In the majority of British cases this simply amounts to a shed with a NG siding on "your" side and a SG siding on the other.

 

Continental railways used either rollbocke or rollwagon to transport SG wagons over their system.

The two methods were largely incompatible.

The loading facilities are easy to model and once again mark a definitive "end" to the NG system.

 

I must admit that the AFK does not model every piece of track because such an arrangement would overwhelm the layout.

The massive transfer facilities, storage sidings, running shed and works at the junction are nominally represented in the "Working Instructions".

In actality they are a fiddle yard.

Layouts representing smaller systems, such as the Aire Valley, and to a lesser extent he Madder Valley, included such facilities.

 

My complaint about fiddle yards is that they consume immense amounts of space in comparison to what is modelled.

This is a bee in my bonnet and I covered the subject in some detail on my website.

If you really want to read my views on narrow gauge modelling and about layout design follow the links.

Good luck if you do this!

 

For those that have maybe better things to do I will close with a picture of Relforka, the junction with the national SG system.

 

5-56 by Ian Thompson, on Flickr

 

This is a photo of an older session and shows almost the whole extent of my fiddle yard.

The SG crossings in the NG do not function and the connecting passenger train never leaves.

The footbridge across the paltforms marks the end of the modelled section and the station building is painted onto the backscene.

The advantage of this arrangement is that the journey has a tangible beginning or end.

The train does not descend into or emerge from a shadowy limboland.

 

In truth there are probably aound 50 SG items held in various drawers, for use on transporters and nearly 100 NG wagons and coaches.

There are also many factory sidings which act as open staging as well as the train ferry.

I am not against storage facilities but I detest giving over my hard won space to the things!

 

End of rant. I am going to run some trains!

 

Ian T

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Andy W said:

Or even worse, take Ireland - you'd think that being an island with no trainferries and a different track gauge would make it safe from the Midland - but they went and bought one of the local companies (B&NCR) purely so they could spread Midland inspired rolling stock even wider. They never quite succeeded as the strong minded folk in Belfast seem to have insisted on retaining relatively archaic features rather than the pure gospel according to Derby, and certainly painted NCC on rolling stock rather than MR.

 

The LNWR in Ireland - DN&GR - contrived to look very like the LNWR in Britain - its entire locomotive fleet consisted of half-a-dozen Ramsbottom saddle tanks and the carriages were typical Wolverton 6-wheelers. I don't know anything about its goods stock, though.

 

The NCC goods stock was lettered M R with N C C in smaller letters underneath in Midland days; I don't know what happened in under the LMS. I don't know much about Irish goods stock generally but I get the impression that apart from vehicles for specific traffic flows, very little new stock was built after about 1880.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Compound2632

[webbcompound]

How you handle in or out of system traffic might depend on what sort of traffic you envisage.

 

[Regularity]

Whale oil beef hooked...

[St Enodoc]

10 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Whale oil beef hooked...

Didn't realise you were from the Black Country Simon.

[Edwardian]

11 minutes ago, ianathompson said:

 

The advantage odf the NG, if you are so inclined, is that every nook and cranny of the system can be modelled in their entirity.

As you point out that does not preclude transfer traffic but the transhipment facilities can be modelled.

In the majority of British cases this simply amounts to a shed with a NG siding on "your" side and a SG siding on the other.

 

Continental railways used either rollbocke or rollwagon to transport SG wagons over their system.

The two methods were largely incompatible.

The loading facilities are easy to model and once again mark a definitive "end" to the NG system.

 

I must admit that the AFK does not model every piece of track because such an arrangement would overwhelm the layout.

The massive transfer facilities, storage sidings, running shed and works at the junction are nominally represented in the "Working Instructions".

In actality they are a fiddle yard.

Layouts representing smaller systems, such as the Aire Valley, and to a lesser extent he Madder Valley, included such facilities.

 

My complaint about fiddle yards is that they consume immense amounts of space in comparison to what is modelled.

This is a bee in my bonnet and I covered the subject in some detail on my website.

If you really want to read my views on narrow gauge modelling and about layout design follow the links.

Good luck if you do this!

 

I will. 

 

Pace all those with vast bare return loops and fiddle yards; if you want to model, say, a prototype through station, often and hone and, in particular, in exhibition format, there most often really is no choice.

 

Thus, I regret, rather than condemn.  I regret because, for me (and these are very subjective personal views) the value of a modelled railway is in its modelled sections.  However necessary the offstage portions may be, that is not what I want to look at, or, devote space to where this is to the sacrifice of the modelled scene. 

 

Offstage is not attractive. Imagine going to the theatre and seeing backstage, the dressing rooms, the props room etc all exposed to view and seeing them at the same time as watching the action on stage?   Further, and more importantly, space is too precious to be left unmodelled!

 

Where free from the constraints of portraying a particular prototype to a particular format, I tend to see schemes with anything but a minority of visible real estate devoted to the 'offstage' use as design failures. 

 

11 minutes ago, ianathompson said:

For those that have maybe better things to do I will close with a picture of Relforka, the junction with the national SG system.

 

5-56 by Ian Thompson, on Flickr

 

This is a photo of an older session and shows almost the whole extent of my fiddle yard.

The SG crossings in the NG do not function and the connecting passenger train never leaves.

The footbridge across the paltforms marks the end of the modelled section and the station building is painted onto the backscene.

The advantage of this arrangement is that the journey has a tangible beginning or end.

The train does not descend into or emerge from a shadowy limboland.

 

I have been crawling, snail-like, over the AFK website. and find it is a scheme very much after my own heart.

 

11 minutes ago, ianathompson said:

In truth there are probably aound 50 SG items held in various drawers, for use on transporters and nearly 100 NG wagons and coaches.

There are also many factory sidings which act as open staging as well as the train ferry.

I am not against storage facilities but I detest giving over my hard won space to the things!

 

End of rant. I am going to run some trains!

 

Ian T

 

 

 

 

Indeed, I agree

 

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The LNWR in Ireland - DN&GR - contrived to look very like the LNWR in Britain - its entire locomotive fleet consisted of half-a-dozen Ramsbottom saddle tanks and the carriages were typical Wolverton 6-wheelers. I don't know anything about its goods stock, though.

 

The NCC goods stock was lettered M R with N C C in smaller letters underneath in Midland days; I don't know what happened in under the LMS. I don't know much about Irish goods stock generally but I get the impression that apart from vehicles for specific traffic flows, very little new stock was built after about 1880.

 

Interestingly, the North Western in India seems to have aped the Premier Line. It's locos were black but when, during the Edwardian period, it adopted more UK-outline looking coaches (possible due to advances in ventilation), its coaches were painted in a version of the LNWR scheme.  

[CKPR]

16 hours ago, Edwardian said:

'The rest of the world' is represented by a single siding. 

 

This is leading into CKPR's parallel library of 1960s Model Railroader magazines, in which the great majority of the layout plans for the 'Uptha Creek & Enyon Valley RR' variety are 'closed' systems with an 'interchange' siding or two on which cars are manually placed on and taken off in broad daylight. Even the layouts based on prototypes, which are usually independent short-lines,  use the same arrangement to represent the PRR, UP, etc.  Reading Model Railroader from the 1950s and 1960 is a fascinating exercise in spotting the transatlantic influences on the then contemporary UK railway modelling scene, particularly with regard to the  Craig & Mertonford.

Edited June 16, 2020 by CKPR

[Donw]

You may have meant it to stand for Island systems but to me the biggest thing about Sodor was that it is ficticious. Despite the protests of The Rev Awdry to the contrary. Its true that closed lines have limited stock, but then so did quite a lot of branch lines apart from the wagons. Fiddleyards really become necessary when you start to run a proper service. If you a merely running trains on a whim. You can store them on the layout but if you are running a service 

 

Don

[Regularity]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Didn't realise you were from the Black Country Simon.

Oi’m not, but it’s a bostin’ place to visit.

[monkeysarefun]

 Now I do understand that The Guardian does lean a little to the left but this headline that I just came upon while reading the Australian version  did seem a  little harsh.

 

 

 

I have since had a happy 10 minutes  hitting the refresh button to see what comes up - this John Crace dude looks mild mannered but  he sure must hate Boris Johnson

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hroth]

On 16/06/2020 at 11:13, webbcompound said:

How you handle in or out of system traffic might depend on what sort of traffic you envisage.

 

 

They could have done with one of those in North Wales this week.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53083945

 

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

5th one down was a coffee-splutter moment for me.  Not a term I had before come across.  I will treasure it. 

[monkeysarefun]

Further investigation reveals someone has installed a Firefox extension on my work computer that is  coming up with the Boris Johnson epiphets, what will they think of next?5

[Compound2632]

On 16/06/2020 at 11:58, Edwardian said:

Offstage is not attractive. Imagine going to the theatre and seeing backstage, the dressing rooms, the props room etc all exposed to view and seeing them at the same time as watching the action on stage?   Further, and more importantly, space is too precious to be left unmodelled!

 

Oh dear. In that case I'm the one hanging round the stage door hoping to inspect more closely the finely-modelled features of the star of the show, whether they be locomotive, carriage, or wagon.

[brack]

54 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Oh dear. In that case I'm the one hanging round the stage door hoping to inspect more closely the finely-modelled features of the star of the show, whether they be locomotive, carriage, or wagon.

Not sure if anyone is/was familiar with Hull MRC's Crumley & Little Wickhill: 

http://www.hullmrs.org/crumley.html

 

It was an exceptional layout, triangular in shape with viewing areas from the two ends of the valley. Unusual, well modelled, great to watch.

 

 

However I always tried to spy into the fiddleyards (past the 2 operators) to see what else was there - Paul Windle was part of the team and he had quite an array of rather special locos which might turn up as interlopers, such as a Hunslet Andean 280 or the avonside geared locos from south african sugar plantations.

 

More photos:

http://3dkblog.blogspot.com/2013/12/perfection.html?m=1

 

I often find the contents of fiddle yards quite fascinating, so you aren't alone Compound.

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, monkeysarefun said:

what will they think of next?

Probably a fake, but funny, auto-headline generator system.

 

BJ does seem to be marooned on a mountaintop of his own making right now, surrounded by increasingly grumpy members of his own party, and increasingly grumpy members of other parties, and increasingly grumpy members of no party whatsoever, all wanting perfectly reasonable, but entirely mutually incompatible things.

 

I bet when he said he wanted to be “world king”, this isn’t quite what he had in mind!

[Donw]

we all want to peep behind the curtain so to speak. However I do remember sitting on a Bench at Pendon  while a variety of trains rolled across the viaduct here was some anticipated of what's next and Roye explained all the salient facts of each. Model railway exhibitions don't seem to allow much opportunity for a leisurly viewing these days.

 

Don

[Nearholmer]

I don’t tend to go to the big/popular exhibitions, because they are far too busy. Much prefer the smaller sort of events, more specialist and quieter, where it is possible to look at things properly, in depth, and chat with the always-knowledgeable exhibitors.

[Edwardian]

RIP Vera Lynn