Castle Aching

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

When we went Gregorian, the Vox Populii cry was "Give us back our 11 days!", so I assume with Solar Creep, Julian is probably so adrift by now that Thursday IS Friday, though the week has been lapped twice...

 

Other Calendars are available...

 

Well, I'm sure that we will soon be able to take back control of our calendar!

 

I can already hear the cries of .....

 

"Every year the NHS will have an extra 11 days in which to treat patients!"

 

"Get Julian done, no ifs, no buts!"

 

"But the People had no idea what kind of 11 days they were voting for!"

 

"We'll avoid the backstop by putting an international date line down the Irish Sea!"

 

"This is a betrayal, this is JUNO (Julian in name only (and his friend, Sandy))"

[Nearholmer]

Regularity

 

I’m not attempting to persuade anyone to abandon their faith, nor am I saying that the faithless are better than the faith-filled, or vice-versa come to that, or to promote use of a comparative misery-o-meter, which undoubtedly wouldn’t reflect well on either camp.

 

What I am saying is that faith can lead to people doing extreme things, both good and bad.

 

Which doesn’t seem a very controversial thing to say.

 

Kevin

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Northroader said:

It’s Thursday?

So am I. Let's go for a drink...

 

14 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m not attempting to persuade anyone to abandon their faith, nor am I saying that the faithless are better than the faith-filled, or vice-versa come to that, or to promote use of a comparative misery-o-meter, which undoubtedly wouldn’t reflect well on either camp.

 

What I am saying is that faith can lead to people doing extreme things, both good and bad.

I am not saying that you said any of that, merely pointing out that the most extreme things in human have been promulgated by atheists who simply want to rule by fear and grind people down. Mind you, if you were to define suffering in terms of total time spent being extreme, then faith has caused (or been misused to cause) misery and oppression for longer!

It was a germane point to the conversation, I thought, not a personal rejection of anything you have said. I was merely expounding on the idea.

39 minutes ago, Hroth said:

There is the school of thought that all "life" on Earth is merely an unfortunate surface infection that should clear up sooner or later.  If it persists, the application of a topical antibiotic should solve the problem....

Yea, I have read Douglas Adams and Terry Pratchett as well.

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Regularity

 

I’m not attempting to persuade anyone to abandon their faith, nor am I saying that the faithless are better than the faith-filled, or vice-versa come to that, or to promote use of a comparative misery-o-meter, which would undoubtedly wouldn’t reflect well on either camp.

 

What I am saying is that faith can lead to people doing extreme things, both good and bad.

 

Which doesn’t seem a very controversial thing to say.

 

Kevin

 

I recall, many years ago, that the then religious correspondent of the Guardian wrote something that made me think, and that, for all these years, I've remembered.

 

No one, he wrote, is as touchy about their faith as atheists.

 

If you will both forgive me for saying so, I see this as nothing to do with a dichotomy between the religious and the secular, the superstitious and the rational.  We are a long way from the Enlightenment these days, but even that spawned its rationalist horrors.  The atrocities alluded to by you arise when anyone allows their convictions (faith if you will) to rule their actions.  Abstract notions such as causes/beliefs/convictions/creeds become more important to you than individuals, and you assume the right of decision in the name of that idea or belief.

 

I'm (as ever) with Burke, not Paine.  Burke lamented the fate of the french Royal family. Paine mocked him for pitying the plumage, but forgetting the dying bird. But the plumage were flesh and blood individuals murdered on the guillotine, not an abstract anachronism to be swept away by the rational mind, and Burke would no doubt reflect that all the blood and suffering resulted in preciously little by way of a change of condition for those at the bottom of society; it never does. 

 

Whether it's the Word of God, you're claiming to act for, or the Will of the People, it's equally dangerous and liable to abuse. "The People"/"The Proletariat"/"The Revolution" are all just abstractions prayed in aid of dictatorial thuggery, expropriation of property, human rights abuse, and slaughter.  In times and places where the vocabulary was religious rather than political, the essence of the thing was the same. 

 

If you still do not think political movements are religions, notice how cultish they are, not least in the way leaders are worshipped, not least, though most oddly to my mind, in political movements of the Left. Oooh Jeremy Corbyn!     

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

Possibly he's still on the Julian calendar.

 

In terms of pre-Grouping, that's hardcore!

 

Lampirons! The change from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar did not involve an adjustment to the day of the week, only to the date. When Great Britain and Ireland moved to the Gregorian calendar in 1752, Wednesday 2 September was followed by Thursday 14 September; at no point when some European countries were using the Julian calendar and others the Gregorian, did Sunday occur on different days. The reason for this lies in the primarily liturgical motivation of Pope Gregory XIII's calendar reform.

[Andy Hayter]

OK so it's Thursday.

The good news is that tomorrow is POETS day.

[Nearholmer]

Yes indeed, believing that one acts on ‘invisible higher authority’, whatever name a person gives that, is delusional arrogance, and pretty much bound to cause trouble. 
 

Of course, acting on the expressed will of the people (a visible authority) is entirely different from acting ‘in the name of people ‘ without bothering to ask them (an invisible authority), but that poses a real problem for attempts to achieve radical change, to democracy, in a non-democratic society, because no legitimised means exists by which to collate the expressed will of the people.

 

Looked at from the standpoint of a mature, or even mature-ish, democracy, attempts to achieve democracy from a non-democratic start within a short period of time are almost bound to look rough-hewn, crude, and at least partly undemocratic. Even our own endlessly prolonged, gradualist approach was a bit tougher than a series of vicarage tea-parties.

 

 

[Donw]

44 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Regularity

 

I’m not attempting to persuade anyone to abandon their faith, nor am I saying that the faithless are better than the faith-filled, or vice-versa come to that, or to promote use of a comparative misery-o-meter, which undoubtedly wouldn’t reflect well on either camp.

 

What I am saying is that faith can lead to people doing extreme things, both good and bad.

 

Which doesn’t seem a very controversial thing to say.

 

Kevin

 

 

 

 

 

The controversey if any is whether they were  encouraged/made mad/evil by the belief in a faith or just naturally mad/evil and would have been so whatever their belief. I would say that it is a bit of both there are bits of most faiths that encourage some extreme acts and taking Edwardians point above most ideologies are the same but they also contain encouragement for selfless acts which side you lean to depends on your individual moral character.  

The Sally Army people I met in my youth were round the pub handing out leaflets about the demond drink any raising funds by making us feel guilty for drinking. They did not strike me as particularly evil people and there were plenty examples of drink fuelling bad behaviour but did that justify them harranging those just out for a pleasant drink? Who or what gives people the right to tell others how to behave.

One thing that seems very odd to me is the incidents of violence by so called bhuddists in certain coutries when I have found no justification of any such acts in any bhuddist teaching I read. The very focus of that faith is on the thoughts and behaviour of oneself.   You can of course consider Bhuddists as callous as they believe the suffering of others may help to lead them to the path of enlightenment, but doesnt extend to causing the suffering.

Don

 

[tomparryharry]

Right! I've had enough!

 

The answer is 49.6, recurring......

 

Now you're ruined Thursday, I'm going back to Wednesday.......

 

We never had this trouble with Tony Blackburn ....... Flowers in the rain........

[tomparryharry]

Further to this thread, I did, at one time, date a calendar model.....

 

Her name was Gillian.....

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, tomparryharry said:

Further to this thread, I did, at one time, date a calendar model.....

 

Her name was Gillian.....

 

Time stamped? Perhaps to avoid further confusion we should all move onto the Gillian calendar.

[Edwardian]

13 minutes ago, Donw said:

 

The Sally Army people I met in my youth were round the pub handing out leaflets about the demond drink any raising funds by making us feel guilty for drinking. They did not strike me as particularly evil people and there were plenty examples of drink fuelling bad behaviour but did that justify them harranging those just out for a pleasant drink? Who or what gives people the right to tell others how to behave.

One thing that seems very odd to me is the incidents of violence by so called bhuddists in certain coutries when I have found no justification of any such acts in any bhuddist teaching I read. The very focus of that faith is on the thoughts and behaviour of oneself.   You can of course consider Bhuddists as callous as they believe the suffering of others may help to lead them to the path of enlightenment, but doesnt extend to causing the suffering.

Don

 

 

I obvious had a misspent youth.  Some of the pubs in which I drank in Sarrff London were more likely to have a collection for the IRA than the Sally Army!

 

You're right, though, about how odd it is that a country where Buddhism is the state religion can behave so appallingly.  

[Edwardian]

10 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

Further to this thread, I did, at one time, date a calendar model.....

 

Her name was Gillian.....

 

Next year, she's September ....

 

[Nearholmer]

It might be that religion has historically been a flashpoint, because it gives ready-made ‘out group’ status to ‘others’, which comes in useful when there is competition for resources, or a need to vent pent-up frustrations.
 

There might have been cases where people have been persecuted simply for believing in a different form of god, but there is usually a lot more to it than that.

 

Then there is the question of oppression within religions ...... the making of people miserable or worse on the basis of interpretation of scripture, for instance.

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It might be that religion has historically been a flashpoint, because it gives ready-made ‘out group’ status to ‘others’, which comes in useful when there is competition for resources, or a need to vent pent-up frustrations.
 

There might have been cases where people have been persecuted simply for believing in a different form of god, but there is usually a lot more to it than that.

 

Then there is the question of oppression within religions ...... the making of people miserable or worse on the basis of interpretation of scripture, for instance.

 

Ah but, you see .....

 

Then there is the question of oppression within religions movements/parties ...... the making of people miserable or worse "de-emphasised"/de-selected on the basis of interpretation of scripture dogma/policies, for instance.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Indeed.
 

It’s quite nostalgia-inducing to watch from a distance what the Labour Party is doing to itself right now, having been in the thick of pretty much the same stuff c35 years ago, and the de-whipping in the Tory party has been revealing. But, those things are taking place among the ‘priesthood’, they don’t involve attempts at thought-control of the population at large, and  compared with show trials, the gulag, and/or being ‘disappeared’, they really are vicarage tea-party stuff.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Annie]

4 hours ago, RedGemAlchemist said:

I totally agree with this. I only have a lack of respect for religious people if they try and shove it in my face and only consider myself atheist because I've personally found no clinching proof of either an afterlife or a God and that is the technical term, not because I'm at all militant about it like the stereotypical. 

 

In short, if I dislike you, it's not because of your race, religion or anything like that - it's because you're an a***hole. 

 

Peace and love, y'all. 

And I am very much with you on this.  Having been harangued myself by people clutching not very good translations of the Bible that they clearly have not read I have little time for anyone who thinks they are doing their God a service by taking this approach.

St Francis said, 'Always preach the Gospel, but only if necessary use your mouth'.  This is very much the path I follow and subscribe to. 

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's not helping. I've been sure its Thursday all day so far.

Well it's been Friday here for nearly 8 hours - and for Annie and her compatriots another couple of hours more than that.

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, Donw said:

However I may be wrong but who could tell me which of the various tales is correct?

We won't know until it's too late for any of us to do anything about it...

 

Also, being pedantic, both the Church of England and the Church of Rome are Catholic churches.

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, Donw said:

 

The controversey if any is whether they were  encouraged/made mad/evil by the belief in a faith or just naturally mad/evil and would have been so whatever their belief. I would say that it is a bit of both there are bits of most faiths that encourage some extreme acts and taking Edwardians point above most ideologies are the same but they also contain encouragement for selfless acts which side you lean to depends on your individual moral character.  

The Sally Army people I met in my youth were round the pub handing out leaflets about the demond drink any raising funds by making us feel guilty for drinking. They did not strike me as particularly evil people and there were plenty examples of drink fuelling bad behaviour but did that justify them harranging those just out for a pleasant drink? Who or what gives people the right to tell others how to behave.

One thing that seems very odd to me is the incidents of violence by so called bhuddists in certain coutries when I have found no justification of any such acts in any bhuddist teaching I read. The very focus of that faith is on the thoughts and behaviour of oneself.   You can of course consider Bhuddists as callous as they believe the suffering of others may help to lead them to the path of enlightenment, but doesnt extend to causing the suffering.

Don

 

I have a problem with people who try to tell me what to think rather than what to do.

[brianusa]

On ‎20‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 09:36, Andy Hayter said:

 

Well since we are in that sort of mood, allow me to substitute the tea for a mug of Gluehwein/van chaud/mulled wine.  Given that last Thursday we had a 40cm fall of heavy wet snow that brought down hundreds ( no exaggeration) of trees (still in leaf and therefore gathered said snow like a sieve), which in turn blocked roads, brought down the power lines , and cut through telephone lines like butter, I think one of those is in order.

 

We lost power for the best part of 2 days and telephone/internet for a further couple of days.   In such circumstances I find it mildly amusing the near melt-down reaction when in the summer parts of the UK lost their power supply for a whole 30 minutes or so.

 

Know what you mean,  A few years ago, we had an ice storm where everything freezes hard which means branches break and block roads which are already covered in frozen snow.  Add in power lines breaking and you have a recipe for a cold spell indoors.  The best way to ride it out is go to a local hotel for a few days with the hot drink of your choice if necessary.

    Brian.

[Annie]

5 hours ago, Donw said:

However I may be wrong but who could tell me which of the various tales is correct?

(Please note, I am not prothelyzing)  Jesus said that his new commandments were to love God with all your heart and mind and to love your neighbour as yourself.  He also said that this commandement contained all the law and the prophets.  Elsewhere Jesus also said that his message was so simple a child could understand it.

All of which makes me wonder why some folk madly 'search the scriptures' when they really don't have to.

 

Now I happen to believe in God, but I know others here on the forum don't, or else are somewhere in between and that's fine by me.  We all have different paths to follow in life that are as individual as we are ourselves and I know very well that my own life path has taken me into some strange places I never thought I'd go so let's just keep on with making the best of it and the show isn't over until it's over.

[brianusa]

A dignified discussion so far sailing close to the topics one should never post about!  Its really about ourselves, our ages and where we live, to a point.  Personally I do not countenance believing what the current politically correct, dictates.  Rather I can agree with some and not others and I'd prefer if it would remain so.  That way I can hide what prejudices I harbour without upsetting all and sundry.  Growing up in the UK where everything was lilywhite, it was a sea change coming to the US before AA was passed.  It was equally surprising going back on holiday to see a similar change.

     Brian.

[Edwardian]

32 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

I have a problem with people who try to tell me what to think rather than what to do.

 

That's awfully accommodating of you; I have a problem with both types of people!

 

19 minutes ago, Annie said:

(Please note, I am not prothelyzing)  Jesus said that his new commandments were to love God with all your heart and mind and to love your neighbour as yourself.  He also said that this commandement contained all the law and the prophets.  Elsewhere Jesus also said that his message was so simple a child could understand it.

All of which makes me wonder why some folk madly 'search the scriptures' when they really don't have to.

 

 

Yes, and that's a problem, isn't it, because a message that simple doesn't leave room for hierarchy and control, which is why suggesting it is liable to get you nailed to a tree.

 

All churches have these, back-to-basics revivals from time to time, but the Higher Ups tend to view them with suspicion and need to find ways to assimilate or control.  I spent sometime studying the suppression of the Spiritual Franciscans - the background to Umberto Eco's novel, Name of the Rose - the point was that there was nothing really wrong with what they said or believed, but it represented a challenge to Papal authority.

 

By the way, the inquisitor, the guy who, in the film, is given the great Bond Villain line "take them to the forge and show them the instruments", was an historical figure; I read his memoirs! 

 

 

 

[monkeysarefun]

Being Australian the last few pages have gone over my head a bit, so here's an advertisement for grease.

 

To me the gentleman in it looks a little like our own Nearholmer.  (I've always  laboured under the assumption that avatars are based on peoples actual appearance...)