To convert non DCC ready locos do you need to buy a socket adapter as well as the decoder?

[Cardinal Richtea]

I have several older ad budget locos which I would like to make DCC by installing a decoder.

 

My Hornby R2669 is one such example. In the description it says it is DCC compatible but no socket (http://www.ehattons.com/22396/Hornby_R2669_Class_08_diesel_shunter_in_BR_red_2_x_open_wagons_and_1_x_box_van/StockDetail.aspx). Does that mean that if I buy a chip, do I also need to buy an adapter socket?

 

Also, what is the difference between the Hornby Sapphire and the cheaper decoders they make? From what I can see the Sapphire has more functionality (presumably the ability to support lights / sounds and such like), and has more power - is that it?

 

Thanks for your time.

[traction]

Hi,

 

DCC compatible means it can be converted to DCC by installing a decoder.

To install the decoder you will need to solder the decoder into the loco.

 

You will have pick-ups on each side of the loco, that go from the wheels to the motor.

You need to disconnect these pick up wires from the motor and connect them to the RED and BLACK wires from the decoder.

You will have another two wires from the decoder a GREY and ORANGE. these two wires will go to each side of the motor.

 

On some decoders there will be more wires coming from it these are for functions, such as lighting, as the Class 08 you have linked to doesn't have an functions you won't need to use these wires.

 

The Sapphire is just a better decoder it will allow full read and write CV programming and has better motor control.

The cheap decoder is much small so is easier to fit in, but there is very limited CV adjustment on it and the motor control isn't as good.

 

This link isn't the Class 08 but shows hot they've fitted a decoder in another loco, which should give you enough information about what's roughly involved.

 

http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/Hornby/Class_06_Shunting/hornby_class_06_shunter_locomotive.htm

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[RFS]

I have several older ad budget locos which I would like to make DCC by installing a decoder.

 

My Hornby R2669 is one such example. In the description it says it is DCC compatible but no socket (http://www.ehattons.com/22396/Hornby_R2669_Class_08_diesel_shunter_in_BR_red_2_x_open_wagons_and_1_x_box_van/StockDetail.aspx). Does that mean that if I buy a chip, do I also need to buy an adapter socket?

 

Also, what is the difference between the Hornby Sapphire and the cheaper decoders they make? From what I can see the Sapphire has more functionality (presumably the ability to support lights / sounds and such like), and has more power - is that it?

 

Thanks for your time.

 

You don't have to buy a socket - you can just hard-wire the decoder into the loco.  I've done that a couple of times with locos that are not DCC-ready, for example, my Hornby BoB 34067 Tangmere.  There was plenty of space inside the loco to do that.

 

The Hornby Sapphire is a much better decoder than the basic R8249 or Bachmann ones, and it can also to be fitted to 8-pin or 21-pin locos via an included adapter (it's basically a 21-pin decoder with a 21->8 adapter).  The only thing wrong with it is its stupid price.  But if you shop around, especially on Ebay, you should get it for under £20.  But if all you want is a decent 8-pin decoder than look no further than the Lenz Standard+. Model Railways Direct have this for sale at £15.60 - not much more than the basic decoders, but quality-wise it's in a completely different class. You can also pick up this decoder for around £13 if you're prepared to buy from the German box-shifters (eg http://www.arstecnica.de/shop/digital-switching/Lokdecoder-Standard-V2-1-0A--mi-Funktionsausgaengen.html)

[RAF96]

As stated you can hard wire and in some cases this is the only way due to space restrictions.

 

You can buy a decoder socket as a spare (Peters Spares and Hornby sell them) or

 

You can use these NEM652 sockets from Ali-Express at around 30p each. Sorry its a tad out of focus, but you get the idea.

[Allegheny1600]

While I agree that you don't HAVE to fit a socket, if you are poor at soldering it may be a good idea to fit one, unless you have restricted space of course.

My reasoning for this is;

Once you have fitted the socket in place, you can run the loco with a blanking plug fitted, on DC to help make sure all is correct (then fit the decoder and test on the programming track).

If you then sell the loco on, you can easily remove the decoder.

Should you wish to upgrade to a more expensive decoder (or sound), it's very easy to do so.

Also, I find that swapping and changing decoders around is useful as sometimes the first decoder fitted doesn't control the motor all that well.

Hope that makes sense,

John.

[Cardinal Richtea]

You don't have to buy a socket - you can just hard-wire the decoder into the loco.  I've done that a couple of times with locos that are not DCC-ready, for example, my Hornby BoB 34067 Tangmere.  There was plenty of space inside the loco to do that.

 

The Hornby Sapphire is a much better decoder than the basic R8249 or Bachmann ones, and it can also to be fitted to 8-pin or 21-pin locos via an included adapter (it's basically a 21-pin decoder with a 21->8 adapter).  The only thing wrong with it is its stupid price.  But if you shop around, especially on Ebay, you should get it for under £20.  But if all you want is a decent 8-pin decoder than look no further than the Lenz Standard+. Model Railways Direct have this for sale at £15.60 - not much more than the basic decoders, but quality-wise it's in a completely different class. You can also pick up this decoder for around £13 if you're prepared to buy from the German box-shifters (eg http://www.arstecnica.de/shop/digital-switching/Lokdecoder-Standard-V2-1-0A--mi-Funktionsausgaengen.html)

Thanks very much, just what I needed. Is the Lenz decoder inferior to the Sapphire though?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

You'll find the Lenz standard will operate the Hornby motor beautifully. It's a benchmark product for good performance at low price. For the RRP asked for Hornby's sapphire, you can get something really sophisticated from the likes of Zimo: an 'awkward mechanism taming' decoder.

[RFS]

Thanks very much, just what I needed. Is the Lenz decoder inferior to the Sapphire though?

 

Almost all of my locos have Lenz decoders but I do have 4 Sapphires in Bachmann 2EPBs.  There's really no difference in performance between the two decoders.  Before you commit to any decoder, you need to first of all make sure you have the space inside the loco to fit the decoder of your choice before you buy it. 

[RAF96]

The Sapphire has a few tricks like supporting ADCC (look on Lenz web site for info) as well as special lighting effects, automated (time controlled) operations and coal/water/fuel burn for added play value.

[traction]

Agreed with the above, the Sapphire is a really good decoder, there are two issues with it!

 

It's a very big decoder and takes some juggling to get it to fit, so look at the specs and cut out a small bit of card to the sizes stated for any decoder you're looking at, then see if it will fit.

 

The price over over 34GBP is just way too much money IMHO, but luckily for me on the Black Monday sale over Christmas they had them on Hornby web site for 19GBP so I had a stack full at that price!!

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[Cardinal Richtea]

Agreed with the above, the Sapphire is a really good decoder, there are two issues with it!

 

It's a very big decoder and takes some juggling to get it to fit, so look at the specs and cut out a small bit of card to the sizes stated for any decoder you're looking at, then see if it will fit.

 

The price over over 34GBP is just way too much money IMHO, but luckily for me on the Black Monday sale over Christmas they had them on Hornby web site for 19GBP so I had a stack full at that price!!

 

Cheers

 

Ian

 

If I can get the Sapphire for just a few quid more than the Lenz, is it better to get the former? Thanks

[Cardinal Richtea]

You'll find the Lenz standard will operate the Hornby motor beautifully. It's a benchmark product for good performance at low price. For the RRP asked for Hornby's sapphire, you can get something really sophisticated from the likes of Zimo: an 'awkward mechanism taming' decoder.

So can the Lenz also do lights / sound etc like the Sapphire? In your view are they much of muchness?

[RFS]

So can the Lenz also do lights / sound etc like the Sapphire? In your view are they much of muchness?

 

The Lenz can do the lights in the same way as the Sapphire.  Neither decoder supports any sound functions.

[Cardinal Richtea]

As stated you can hard wire and in some cases this is the only way due to space restrictions.

 

You can buy a decoder socket as a spare (Peters Spares and Hornby sell them) or

 

You can use these NEM652 sockets from Ali-Express at around 30p each. Sorry its a tad out of focus, but you get the idea.

 

Thank-you very much for this. I will probably go down this route for some of my locos at least if it is not TOO difficult (how hard would you say it is for a newbie that is moderately technically savvy?). I looked up the NEW 652 sockets. They come in wired and non wired varieties. Which is more appropriate?

 

 I have seen plenty of guides for installing DCC chips, less so for DCC installation for non DCC ready locos using sockets. I have found this though:

 

 

Seems to be rated as a template for doing this, although is a little old and I am not sure how fast the technology moves regarding digital model trains.

[bgman]

So can the Lenz also do lights / sound etc like the Sapphire? In your view are they much of muchness?

 

I have no experience of the Sapphire, its always Lenz, Zimo or ESU for me. Whilst I appreciate there is probably a cost implication I feel that you spends your money etc.

Control of the locos with Lenz etc. is IMHO far superior and to date I've not had any problems using any of them, lucky? maybe !

[smokebox]

The Sapphire cannot do sounds. It is not a sound decoder and neither is the Lenz standard+.

[Cardinal Richtea]

The Sapphire cannot do sounds. It is not a sound decoder and neither is the Lenz standard+.

I am aware of that, but I assume the DCC chips should be compatible with the sound chip, or am I talking out of my hat?

[smokebox]

If you have a sound chip, then you don't generally need any other chips, the sound decoder will also control the motor speed and direction and will have some lighting functions.

[Cardinal Richtea]

If you have a sound chip, then you don't generally need any other chips, the sound decoder will also control the motor speed and direction and will have some lighting functions.

 Oh I see, that is good to konw. So is there a chip I can buy that is not ridiculously expensive that will do the Sapphire stuff plus sound? Would love to know that.

[smokebox]

What "Sapphire stuff"?

[SRman]

FWIW, I found it useful to install a socket when I was wiring up a cut-down Hornby class 60 chassis to fit into a class 92 electric. Space constraints (mainly in regards to height) meant the Hornby PCB had to go. The main reason for fitting a socket rather than straight hard-wiring was that I intended to fit sound but I didn't want to fry an expensive sound decoder before I could test out my wiring. I used a cheap Hattons decoder for testing it all out, then fitted the ESU LokSound decoder and speaker when I was satisfied it was safe to do so.

[traction]

 Oh I see, that is good to konw. So is there a chip I can buy that is not ridiculously expensive that will do the Sapphire stuff plus sound? Would love to know that.

 

I think you're getting a bit confused here.

 

A very basic summary,

 

You have what we would class as standard decoders, with different amounts of functions., 2functions or 4 functions you can even buy a function only decoder!

The decoder controls the speed, direction of the loco.

The functions operate the directional lights on the locomotive if it has these fitted.

Some locos have lots of lights and you can wire these up to the different wires on the decoder so they can be accessed individually.

Some of the cheaper decoders will only allow a limited number of CV's to be adjusted and the motor control may not be the best.

 

You then pay a bit more money and the motor control improves and the amount of CV's (Configuration Variables) that can be adjusted to give the best possible running, increases to.

You also have extra features built in to the software on the decoder, for instance the Hornby Sapphire decoder has a fuel/coal simulation burn rate so as you run this decreases and will eventually run out so the loco will stop.

It also has auto cycle control which can be easily set up on a Hornby Elite, or you can use the CV's to set it up.

Some other decoders have similar features built in some don't.

 

You then have sound decoders, these have a sound profile loaded on to them, and you can access the sounds using the function keys on your controller.

These decoders also have the function outputs to control lights etc.

These do cost more money and room needs to be found for the speaker.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[Cardinal Richtea]

What "Sapphire stuff"?

The functionality vis a vis control, power and lights.

[Cardinal Richtea]

I think you're getting a bit confused here.

 

A very basic summary,

 

You have what we would class as standard decoders, with different amounts of functions., 2functions or 4 functions you can even buy a function only decoder!

The decoder controls the speed, direction of the loco.

The functions operate the directional lights on the locomotive if it has these fitted.

Some locos have lots of lights and you can wire these up to the different wires on the decoder so they can be accessed individually.

Some of the cheaper decoders will only allow a limited number of CV's to be adjusted and the motor control may not be the best.

 

You then pay a bit more money and the motor control improves and the amount of CV's (Configuration Variables) that can be adjusted to give the best possible running, increases to.

You also have extra features built in to the software on the decoder, for instance the Hornby Sapphire decoder has a fuel/coal simulation burn rate so as you run this decreases and will eventually run out so the loco will stop.

It also has auto cycle control which can be easily set up on a Hornby Elite, or you can use the CV's to set it up.

Some other decoders have similar features built in some don't.

 

You then have sound decoders, these have a sound profile loaded on to them, and you can access the sounds using the function keys on your controller.

These decoders also have the function outputs to control lights etc.

These do cost more money and room needs to be found for the speaker.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Yes, I understood that after Smokebox corrected me. Thanks for the extra information. Looked on this forum, and looks like there are no 'budget' sound options in the UK - although it appears that slightly dubious American alternatives might exist.

[Cardinal Richtea]

You don't have to buy a socket - you can just hard-wire the decoder into the loco.  I've done that a couple of times with locos that are not DCC-ready, for example, my Hornby BoB 34067 Tangmere.  There was plenty of space inside the loco to do that.

 

The Hornby Sapphire is a much better decoder than the basic R8249 or Bachmann ones, and it can also to be fitted to 8-pin or 21-pin locos via an included adapter (it's basically a 21-pin decoder with a 21->8 adapter).  The only thing wrong with it is its stupid price.  But if you shop around, especially on Ebay, you should get it for under £20.  But if all you want is a decent 8-pin decoder than look no further than the Lenz Standard+. Model Railways Direct have this for sale at £15.60 - not much more than the basic decoders, but quality-wise it's in a completely different class. You can also pick up this decoder for around £13 if you're prepared to buy from the German box-shifters (eg http://www.arstecnica.de/shop/digital-switching/Lokdecoder-Standard-V2-1-0A--mi-Funktionsausgaengen.html)

Which is easier to install for a newbie, or is there nothing between them?