RHDR Accident?

[Robert]

Very sad news that the RHDR have to go through this yet again.  Thank God nobody was killed this time.

 

There are lots of un-gated crossings on the Marsh - not just the RHDR, but also the Dungeness Branch which carries the atomic trains from the power station (including one on the A259 at Brenzett). 

 

However, they are all well signposted, have lights and provided you are paying attention, impossible to miss.

 

The report on this one will make interesting reading.

[roythebus]

I was trying to post some images of the loco and tender recovery from the FB group the Real Marsh Watch but the system won't let me. The loco and tender have both been recovered using a hiab lorry.

[roythebus]

Had this been a case of carless driving the incident might never have occurred

 

True, but my fat fingers can't always get the buttons on the computer to work propellorly.

[Titan]

To comment on PhilB's earlier post, I remember being at the trial of the former magistrate who was charged with dangerous driving and the case was dismissed. I posted an item on it here a couple of years ago. Had the PS gone for careless driving instead of dangerous driving, they would have gained a conviction.

 

 

And this is something that people fail to understand - it is the offence that they are tried for, not the consequence of that offence. This leads to the situation that if someone drives carelessly, even if they kill someone they cannot be prosecuted for causing death by dangerous driving if the offence committed does not fall in to the dangerous driving category. Any attempt to do so may result in them getting off scot free, which would be even worse.

[Edge]

Roythebus, whats is the damage to the engine like? from the pictures I have seen there are probably a few bits bent out of shape with the tender linkage and the cab appears to have been knocked off centre, but is there any indication of boiler or frame damage?

[Richard E]

I have learned today that it was the son of a friend of a friend driving. Very lucky that was no worse.

 

I also understand it was an occupational crossing, not a public road crossing.

 

The tractor, possibly from an outside contractor, was towing a full trailer of straw, there are suggestions it was overloaded.

[St Enodoc]

The third problem might be a bit more subtle - certainly in the case of a farm crossing - where because of the scale of the trains they might look to be further away than they actually are, especially to a stranger to the line.

Mike, that is a very interesting and perceptive point. Another that occurs to me is that if a train (any size) is approaching on dead straight track it is very hard to work out its speed.

[Dunsignalling]

Mike, that is a very interesting and perceptive point. Another that occurs to me is that if a train (any size) is approaching on dead straight track it is very hard to work out its speed.

In which case, it's only sensible to wait until it has passed before crossing.

[Derekstuart]

The difference in simple terms is that dangerous driving is "a reasonable and competent person would recognise that there is a danger to life or property" whereas careless driving is "a reasonable and competent person would recognise the driving standard falling short of that which is acceptable but where there is not an immediate risk of danger."

Failing to observe a level crossing signage would indicate to a reasonable and competent person that the driving has an element of danger in it. No incident has to take place before that charge can be brought (example: tractor crosses line without the driver looking. No train thus no accident, but can still be judged that was dangerous driving.)

 

The Road Safety Act tidied up a lot of these loopholes in 2006.

And this is something that people fail to understand - it is the offence that they are tried for, not the consequence of that offence. This leads to the situation that if someone drives carelessly, even if they kill someone they cannot be prosecuted for causing death by dangerous driving if the offence committed does not fall in to the dangerous driving category. Any attempt to do so may result in them getting off scot free, which would be even worse.

[Fat Controller]

  The third problem might be a bit more subtle - certainly in the case of a farm crossing - where because of the scale of the trains they might look to be further away than they actually are, especially to a stranger to the line.

 

Isn't that derived from Father Ted's studies in these matters?

[pete_mcfarlane]

Isn't that derived from Father Ted's studies in these matters?

And isn't there a story about a German fighter-bomber in WW2 who thought he was attacking a full size train, and so fatally misjudged his height? 

[Talltim]

Quite how they know what he was thinking is a mystery. Unless his last radio communication was "kleiner oder weiter weg?"

[PaulRhB]

And isn't there a story about a German fighter-bomber in WW2 who thought he was attacking a full size train, and so fatally misjudged his height?

That one always has the whiff of urban myth about it. How did they miss all the other landscape features size? If they were that low then they would probably have hit the ground anyway as if you scaled it up they'd still have been within just a few feet of the ground and prone to any small tree, telephone line etc

 

Until we know if they tried to communicate and what was said its just speculation.

What we do know is the driver is ok and has been praised by witnesses for his actions. Top job regardless of whatever else emerges.

[roythebus]

Sorry  don't know the extent of the damage to the loco, I've not seen it and didn't really want to get in the way of the RHDR rescue team. Like I said, if you look on the FB Real Marsh Watch group, there's some pics there.

[pete_mcfarlane]

That one always has the whiff of urban myth about it. How did they miss all the other landscape features size? If they were that low then they would probably have hit the ground anyway as if you scaled it up they'd still have been within just a few feet of the ground and prone to any small tree, telephone line etc

 

 

It's most likely a myth, although bear in mind that trains are normally attacked by strafing, where you fly towards the ground and pull up at the last minute, so it's not completely out of the question that some inexperienced Luftwaffe pilot came in a bit too low and hit a power line. And on some bits of the line there aren't many landscape features to judge your height against.  

 

In some ways it's less ridiculous than the story of the German fighter that was taken out by an exploding D3 0-4-4T on the New Romney branch, which actually did happen. 

[Zomboid]

There's not really very much in the way of landscape features on Romney Marsh though. It's not totally unbelievable, if unlikely.

[Fat Controller]

It's most likely a myth, although bear in mind that trains are normally attacked by strafing, where you fly towards the ground and pull up at the last minute, so it's not completely out of the question that some inexperienced Luftwaffe pilot came in a bit too low and hit a power line. And on some bits of the line there aren't many landscape features to judge your height against.  

 

In some ways it's less ridiculous than the story of the German fighter that was taken out by an exploding D3 0-4-4T on the New Romney branch, which actually did happen. 

Depending where on the Marsh the incident took place, there are a distinct lack of features to help in judging height; once you get beyond Greatstone, there are no trees, and precious few buildings, of which this ( https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Dungeness,+Romney+Marsh/@50.916517,0.9771864,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1s-htJ2hkNkqlk%2FVpUy3V7qPRI%2FAAAAAAAAAPQ%2FPx_a2kpgq_YNoXEFU6bH6Ph3_JZ1qxHXg!2e4!3e12!6s%2F%2Flh6.googleusercontent.com%2F-htJ2hkNkqlk%2FVpUy3V7qPRI%2FAAAAAAAAAPQ%2FPx_a2kpgq_YNoXEFU6bH6Ph3_JZ1qxHXg%2Fs114-k-no%2F!7i2592!8i1944!4m5!3m4!1s0x47deeed7a851a7e1:0x260eae2ecb832b31!8m2!3d50.919325!4d0.96528!6m1!1e1?hl=en) is not untypical. The railway track is to allow the boat to be hauled to the shore. I have this compulsion to put some Ry Cooder or Enrico Morricone on the car CD player every time I visit.

[pete_mcfarlane]

 I have this compulsion to put some Ry Cooder or Enrico Morricone on the car CD player every time I visit.

Going way OT, but still on the subject of music and Romney Marsh/Dungeness, there's this Prodigy video:

Complete with the bloke who played Mickey Smith in Doctor Who wandering around the sound mirrors, and Dungeness itself. It's even got the narrow gauge fishermen's' railway in it. 

[Neil]

Mike, that is a very interesting and perceptive point. Another that occurs to me is that if a train (any size) is approaching on dead straight track it is very hard to work out its speed.

 

 

In which case, it's only sensible to wait until it has passed before crossing.

 

Sensible if you know that you're finding it difficult to perceive speed of the train and it's distance from you, however the nature of deception is that it's not readily apparent. We're privileged here to have a far better knowledge of how the railway works than Joe (or Jo) public and are in a better position to judge risk. What may appear to be a blindingly stupid action to us may seem to carry far less risk or be effectively free from it, to the wider populace.

[great central]

At my local level crossing some of the inpatient ones beep - they'll need loud horns for the bobby at Cambridge to hear them though as I pointed out to one cretin who kept on beep, beep, f...... beep.

 

Near miss with a tractor at one of your local ones earlier today, time of year?

[Derekstuart]

When I was learning to fly (sadly in a Slingsby Firefly and not a Spitfire or Me109- so no guns) one of the things that is hammered into you is not to focus on just one item on the horizon.

 

The example the instructor used was 2 chimneys nearby- one was larger, one was smaller- and "Father Dougal's cow lesson" was quite appropriate, so if the Luftwaffe pilot was concentrating on the train and nothing else, then I don't find it so hard to believe at all.

[edcayton]

Which of the chimneys were you trying to shoot at?

 

Ed

[Derekstuart]

Hi Ed

Sorry, the Firefly is an un-armed training/ acrobatic aircraft. He was pointing out to me that when using structures to gauge your distance that it is very easy to confuse small plastic cows in the cockpit with large cows in the fields below- or in this case chimneys.

 

When I was a lad the RAF used to use a factory complex near my school for training runs and simulated bombing runs... I doubt I'll ever forget the sound of Lightnings and Phantoms- being in the cold war when training was more intense than now they used to run fast and low to say the least.

Which of the chimneys were you trying to shoot at?

 

Ed

[Richard E]

No full enquiry, just a safety digest in due course:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/level-crossing-collision-romney-hythe-dymchurch-railway

[roythebus]

Yes, it's just been on BBC Radio Kent as I happened to start reading the latest thread!