LBSCR & GWR at Battersea Wharf

[The Stationmaster]

Knowing that the GWR depot was big on milk, might explain this photo, which I stumbled upon while looking for something else, and which intrigued me https://www.flickr.com/photos/northbriton/15433188889

 

I'd assumed (that again!) that the train was only going as far as Kensington, but possibly not.

 

Empty coal wagon returning to Swansea on the other road, too. A bit prosaic, but might coal be the exchange traffic? Maybe very good stuff, for a customer with very particular needs.

 

Or, what about tobacco products, going from SE London to Ireland, by way of Fishguard? London was a big cigar and cigarette making centre, especially within striking distance of the docks, and I know that tobacco products were conveyed by vans attached to passenger trains to Fishguard (not from london though), so you could join these thoughts together. A more likely route out would be via the city goods depots and the widened lines, but ........

 

K

 

The July 1939 STT doesn't show any GWR milk trains running to South Lambeth - everything is show as 'goods' although the light engine from Wood Lane would have been off either a milk working or milk shunting.

 

I think I've quoted various 'south of the river' London area running powers on another thread in the past but I'll try to delve them out again - some of them definitely seem to have lapsed in the Grouping period or they were not used but remained available (I have the complete RCH list which accompanied the Junction Diagrams book although it is the Post-Group copy)

[Mikkel]

Ah,

 

Lovely photos. Not least Preston Dock!

 

John: Phil Parker has a Flickr album with a variety of "modellable" warehouses here (but not docks/wharf specifically): 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/45131642@N00/albums/72157655666531614

 

A couple of personal favourites here:

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Derby&objid=1997-7397_DY_14618

https://blosslynspage.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/dsc_0964.jpg

 

Meanwhile here is a bit of Thames wharf atmosphere, though probably not quite what you are after:

http://flashbak.com/mud-flood-and-blood-photos-of-londons-river-thames-1895-2000-6240/

Edited September 27, 2016 by Mikkel

[Northroader]

Great idea, I was wondering where the Terrier was going. Have a look at Scorpio Models, located in Newport, Gwent, for a suitable GWR gauge O loco kit of the 060ST persuasion. I've had a couple of 4w. coach kits from them, and I found them good value, and giving a satisfactory job. I'm afraid they don't have a website, just email, phone, or snail mail. I suppose the guage o guild traders links is the best way of contacting them, as you're not over here. Otherwise they turn up at the big GOG shows.

The selection of wharf scenes Edwardian has turned up are a real inspiration, crying out to be done, with a mudbank with a Thames barge or lighter near the front. Best wishes with this project.

[Nearholmer]

If anyone can get hold of a copy, there was a book, which I think started as a series of magazine articles, called "Living London", published in three volumes, foolscap format, in about 1905.

 

It is written in slightly patronising journalese, but covers every trade in London, in pretty good detail, and the main relevance here is that it is fantastically well illustrated. The writers must have spent a few days with each trade, soaking-up the details.

 

One of my brothers has the set that was our father's, passed down by his grandfather, which we used to pore over for absolutely hours as children. That, lots of railway books, and a whopping great bound set of "The Boys Own Paper" (more fantastic illustrations), probably go part way to explaining my interest in late-Victorian and early-Edwardian London.

 

Kevin

[brightspark]

I have been pondering this area for some time. Lots of doddles of odd corners of Clapham Junction....well the area around it. The Midland yard interested me, but perhaps, having seen the photos posted above, a branch down to the waterfront...or perhaps an inlet to Lavender Hill.

Anyway, what an area to model, especially if you have lots of locos from different companies.

[Mikkel]

I had no idea Scorpio were still trading, that is good news.

 

With all the potential of the London wharfs and docks, it seems a bit odd that there are comparatively few layouts around. Maybe we get scared off by the size and grandeur of it all.

 

Just one of the large docks offers modelling opportunities for a lifetime, eg this search for Poplar on the NRM site produced some very modellable scenes: http://www.nrm.org.uk/searchresults?terms=poplar

[Nearholmer]

The up-river locations offer interesting possibilities too.

 

Here is Chelsea Basin, and Lots Road Generating Station.

https://rbkclocalstudies.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/lots-road-power-station-1921.jpg

 

And, Brentford Dock. https://www.flickr.com/photos/finlandia_175/13370375024. It is a bit hard to tell at first glance whether this might actually be someone playing boats in the bath http://www.bhsproject.co.uk/jones_bantamiv.shtml

 

Above the Pool of London, I think these have always been docks/wharves for lighters, and the flows of traffic were probably quite complicated, because lighters could be both distributing goods from the railways, and distributing goods from the 'real' docks.

 

Also worth looking at places like Angerstein Wharf and Deptford Wharf, which did receive sea-going vessels direct.

 

Once you get away from the river, onto the canals, another lost world is revealed. The material here is truly stunning; zillions of model organic scenes. http://gerald-massey.org.uk/Canal/c_chapter_10.htm

 

Really, someone needs to write a good book about how goods were dealt with in/around London, because an entire complex web of transport services simply evaporated about fifty years ago, but there are still quite a few bits of industrial archaeology, which are hard to make sense of without 'the big picture'.

 

Kevin

Edited September 28, 2016 by Nearholmer

[BG John]

With all the potential of the London wharfs and docks, it seems a bit odd that there are comparatively few layouts around. Maybe we get scared off by the size and grandeur of it all.

They have the potential to model tiny corners though. My Cheapside Yard is a factory site rather than a dock, but at 4ft x 1ft in 7mm scale, it's just a tiny part of a much larger complex with the rest hidden behind an overline bridge between buildings.

[Talltim]

Not pre grouping, but this book is good for getting a feel for the riverside. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Londons-Lost-Riverscape-Chris-Ellmers/dp/0670812633

The photos are from a 1937 commission by the Port of London Authority

Edited September 28, 2016 by Talltim

[Edwardian]

My Cheapside Yard is a factory site rather than a dock,

 

Ah

[BG John]

Too much choice now. It's only a micro layout!!

[Nearholmer]

What about a model railway factory?

 

These are various Bassett-Lowke premises in Northampton, and worth remembering that the Chad Valley factory kept an entire Branch-line in Brum active.

 

Kevin

[Talltim]

I thought I’d dabble a bit in 7mm, so why not begin with the Battersea tangle 

In practice it’s a fairly modest affair though. I was thinking along these lines:

 

A GWR saddle tank and an LB&SCR side tank knocking a few wagons about on a couple of exchange sidings. Add a bit of London 1900s wharf atmosphere at the front, and some grotty half-relief warehouses at the back...

Am I right in think that that is pretty much where the dock for Battersea Power station was later?

[The Stationmaster]

Am I right in think that that is pretty much where the dock for Battersea Power station was later?

 

Yes - almost spot on.

 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=17&lat=51.4823&lon=-0.1449&layers=168&right=BingHyb

[Edwardian]

Too much choice now.

 

Ah,

[BG John]

Ah,

Grrrrrrr. Although it does have a certain appeal!

[Edwardian]

Am I right in think that that is pretty much where the dock for Battersea Power station was later?

 

I think the power station was built to the north/east of the pumping station.

 

Someone more familiar with the site might better be able to orientate you.

 

Mikkel has chosen the only bare, featureless place in London

Edited September 28, 2016 by Edwardian

[The Stationmaster]

I think the power station was built to the north/east of the pumping station.

 

Someone more familiar with the site might better be able to orientate you.

 

Mikkel has chosen the only bare, featureless place in London

 

Clink on the link I added (assuming it works for you) and you'll see exactly what was/is where  (and you can change the dates of the map on the left although not all at that scale alas)

[Edwardian]

Yes - almost spot on.

 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=17&lat=51.4823&lon=-0.1449&layers=168&right=BingHyb

 

 

Sorry, missed this - so, over the reservoir

[Mikkel]

A brief history of Battersea wharf and environs:
 
 
1816:

 
 
1857: LSWR line in evidence



1894: LBSCR Battersea Goods now on left.



1897: Battersea Wharf showing LBSCR sidings along the river


 
1914: GWR South Lambeth Goods yard now constructed (center of map)



1928: GWR South Lambeth Goods

 

1928: Z gauge! The two goods sheds and Victoria lines in the middle. LBSCR roundhouses bottom left.


 
1937: LBSCR Battersea wharf sidings from the Thames side. Power station now built.



1938: Overview

 

1938: The two GWR milk docks encircled



1946: Overview



1946: GWR South Lambeth Goods



1946: LBSCR Battersea wharf sidings

 

1950: LBSCR Battersea wharf sidings



1955:


 
2015:



2015: GWR South Lambeth Goods no more.


 
2025: (planned developments)

Edited July 1, 2017 by Mikkel

[Nearholmer]

Anyone else notice that, on the c1895 maps, there is a random, isolated, bit of track just to the east of the filter beds, at the riverfront?

 

And, things are slightly different on the 1869 map - perhaps a coal tramway from the river to the pumping station?

 

I wonder if Battersea Wharf, as a river wharf, was already on the wane by 1895.

 

K

Edited September 28, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

And, just to add slightly to Mikkel's brilliant history pictures, here is the full nine yards on the new railway being built into the area right now https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/northern-line-extension

Edited September 28, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Mikkel]

Anyone else notice that, on the c1895 maps, there is a random, isolated, bit of track just to the east of the filter beds, at the riverfront?

 

And, things are slightly different on the 1869 map - perhaps a coal tramway from the river to the pumping station?

 

I wonder if Battersea Wharf, as a river wharf, was already on the wane by 1895.

 

K

 

Intriguing! The isolated bit of track seems to change configuration over the years. The 1875 published map shows a rail connection from the wharf to the pumping station:

 

 

 

 

In 1915 that track is gone, but now there is an (akward!) connection from a line along the wharf to the newly built GWR depot - including a wagon turntable. An opportunity for a small single track layout!

 

 

 

This in turn connects to Edwardian's photos of the pumping station above. It took some time for me to work out how this photo fitted into the plan, but I see now that it must have been taken from the roof of the GWR goods depot, with the old filter beds on the left (where the power station would be built in 1931) and the river in the distance on the right:

 

 

Isn't this just the most interesting hobby in the world!

[Nearholmer]

If you want to be put off your breakfast, read the history of the Southwark & Vauxhall Water Company https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwark_and_Vauxhall_Waterworks_Company look out especially for the mention of "moving organisms" in the sample of their water looked at by an analyst!

 

Something they did need, as well as coal, was filter-sand, but I still can't make the later bits of railway on their property work in my mind.

 

A quick scad through The Engineer suggests that S&VWCo was in the process of moving away from extraction from The Thames, to extraction from deep aquifers, and obtaining water from the new, clean, up-river extraction at Jampton/Sunbury by the 1890s, which would have rendered the filter beds, and probably the reservoirs, at Vauxhall redundant by the early 1900s.

 

(Apologies for this 'clean water obsession' ....... As readers of Castle Aching will know, I've got rather too 'into' this topic recently!)

 

K

Edited September 29, 2016 by Nearholmer

[kirtleypete]

What a brilliant thread - I've only just stumbled across it (thanks John!) but I've been captivated reading it all. My next layout was all neatly planned but now I'm having doubts again....those photo's of the waterfront buildings are inspirational.

 

I do keep going back to look at pictures of the lifting bridge on the LBSC branch to Deptford wharf, it's not too big and would make a cracking model though there don't seem to be many clear photo's.

 

Peter