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Edwardian

Using RTR models to represent the LSWR

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I have ordered volume 2 of the old RCTS book on LSWR locomotives, in the hope that this may assist - I cannot stretch to the more recent 4-volume set - in the meantime, I don't recall much discussion of the Kernow O2.

 

Given that it would need to be re-painted and lined as part of any back-dating, any minor surgery required is unlikely to be an issue, but I wonder if anyone has considered using this RTR release as the basis of a pre-Grouping model?

 

As an Adams locomotive, I assume there is scope for both Adam and Drummond liveries.

 

I understood it to be conceived as more of a branchline than suburban loco, and I understand that they were tried on the Lyme Regis branch, after the Terriers and before the Radials, but otherwise I know little about them in pre-Grouping days.

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The frames may have differed when built but 30582 and 30584 had both received at least one set of new frames post-1923. 488/30583, having never been "grouped" and only returning to SR ownership in 1947, retains its original ones though, if you've ever seen underneath, there is evidence of substantial repair/reinforcing work that took place whilst under EKR ownership.  

 

Boilers are another pitfall - the Drummond ones are easy enough to spot with their dome-mounted SVs though they are legitimate for pre-group liveried models if you pick the right locos and dates. 

 

However, there were two different Adams boilers, one type having a taller and fatter dome than the other. 30584 carried the larger version from early 1948 until 1959 when it was transferred to 30583 and she carried the smaller-domed one (previously stored for some years) for the rest of her days. 

 

Check out pics of Hornby's 488 and 30584 to see the difference in model form, I am waiting for Hornby's 30583 because the dome on Oxford's first release just doesn't look right to me.

 

Thus, prior to re-acquisition of 488/EKR 5, the SR had three boilers (two Drummond) shared between two locos: and BR had four between three, which got swapped around at overhauls. The small-domed Adams one was out of use from 1954 with 30582 carrying a Drummond boiler thereafter. 30583 carried one for its whole BR career until the 1959 works visit. It then went to 30582 in 1960, hence the slight error with the model of that loco which has the late crest applied at that works visit but the differently positioned lamp irons as fitted to the other Drummond boiler which it carried previously. Mine will get the early emblem to correct the matter as well as making it a proper match to run with the rebuilt ex-LSW coaches.  

 

That 1959 overhaul of 30583 showed definite evidence of all the most "original" bits being brought together on one loco, suggesting that someone at Eastleigh was already thinking ahead to possible preservation.

 

John

Yes, it may or may not have been a happy coincidence, but in 1959 30583 regained the boiler it had when sold out of service by the LSWR. 

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

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I understood it to be conceived as more of a branchline than suburban loco, and I understand that they were tried on the Lyme Regis branch, after the Terriers and before the Radials, but otherwise I know little about them in pre-Grouping days.

They were indeed but fairly quickly became regarded as something of a standby to be used in extremis for a number of reasons.

 

According to most published sources, the axle loading with full tanks substantially exceeded the line limit and with the reduced fill, their range didn't leave much in reserve.

 

They also suffered rapid wear to the driving wheel flanges (the ex-LBSC D1s tried in the 30s did too, but the GWR 14xx trialled in 1957 failed so dismally to keep the leisurely schedule with even one coach that it didn't stay long enough to suffer any ill effects). AFAIK, O2s continued to appear occasionally until the SR got hold of EKR No.5.

 

Even the Radials had to receive increased bogie movement to cope with the curves and restricted water fill to keep their weight within bounds. The successive operating departments charged with maintaining the service would have been justified in regarding the branch with less than fulsome affection!

 

I hate to say so, but the motive power that suited the line best from a mechanical standpoint was, almost certainly, the Gloucester RCW "Bubble Car"  :O

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling

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RailroadBill of this Parish has demonstrated that the bunker rails simply unclip from the Hornby Radial.  I take the liberty of reposting his pictures from the Radial topic in the Hornby section.  As he points out, one is left with the tall filler cap, so information is sought as to the lower, "as built", arrangement.   

 

The Radial, I suspect, has potential for conversion to other pre-Grouping types.

 

At my request, Railroadbill very kindly photographed the chassis and took a measurement from the rail to the highest part of the chassis, which he gives as 36.5 mm.  Again, I repost his pictures.

 

The Radial has 5'7" coupled wheels at 8'6" centres.  So too does the Adams 0380 Class 4-4-0, the 'Steamrollers' of 1879.  A small class of 12, characterised by small, solid, bogie wheels. Further, the boiler of the Radial is 4'2" diameter with the centre line pitched at 7', whereas the Steamroller has a 4'6" diameter boiler pitched at 7'2" to the centre line.  The conclusion is that the Hornby chassis could be used as a basis for a Steamroller, though with new bogie, o/s cylinders, body etc, so you are really just using the coupled wheels and motor as the basis of a build.

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post-25673-0-88710100-1475650763.jpg

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post-25673-0-55297500-1475650856_thumb.jpg

Edited by Edwardian
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The frames may have differed when built but 30582 and 30584 had both received at least one set of new frames post-1923. 488/30583, having never been "grouped" and only returning to SR ownership in 1947, retains its original ones though, if you've ever seen underneath, there is evidence of substantial repair/reinforcing work that took place whilst under EKR ownership.  

 

Boilers are another pitfall - the Drummond ones are easy enough to spot with their dome-mounted SVs though they are legitimate for pre-group liveried models if you pick the right locos and dates. 

 

However, there were two different Adams boilers, one type having a taller and fatter dome than the other. 30584 carried the larger version from early 1948 until 1959 when it was transferred to 30583 and she carried the smaller-domed one (previously stored for some years) for the rest of her days. 

 

Check out pics of Hornby's 488 and 30584 to see the difference in model form, I am waiting for Hornby's 30583 because the dome on Oxford's first release just doesn't look right to me.

 

Thus, prior to re-acquisition of 488/EKR 5, the SR had three boilers (two Drummond) shared between two locos: and BR had four between three, which got swapped around at overhauls. The small-domed Adams one was out of use from 1954 with 30582 carrying a Drummond boiler thereafter. 30583 carried one for its whole BR career until the 1959 works visit. It then went to 30582 in 1960, hence the slight error with the model of that loco which has the late crest applied at that works visit but the differently positioned lamp irons as fitted to the other Drummond boiler which it carried previously. Mine will get the early emblem to correct the matter as well as making it a proper match to run with the rebuilt ex-LSW coaches.  

 

That 1959 overhaul of 30583 showed definite evidence of all the most "original" bits being brought together on one loco, suggesting that someone at Eastleigh was already thinking ahead to possible preservation.

 

John

 

One further point, which appears to have escaped attention, and that concerns the mainframe profile in front of the smoke box. Number 488 of the 1885 Neilson batch had a singular frame profile which dropped from the front of the smokebox, almost to footplate level. Hornby and Oxford seem to have captured this well with their models of 488 in LSW livery. Oxford show 3520 correctly in Southern Green, but show an incorrect profile for the same loco when in Bulleid's utility black. Caveat Emptor.

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A gentle reminder that the SOUTH WESTERN CIRCLE is a source of information about the LSWR and its successors.  We have drawings, portfolios and access to a huge amount of photographs.  We meet five times a year and publish a quarterly magazine and periodic monographs.

 

Further information can be obtained by googling SOUTH WESTERN CIRCLE

 

Bill

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One further point, which appears to have escaped attention, and that concerns the mainframe profile in front of the smoke box. Number 488 of the 1885 Neilson batch had a singular frame profile which dropped from the front of the smokebox, almost to footplate level. Hornby and Oxford seem to have captured this well with their models of 488 in LSW livery. Oxford show 3520 correctly in Southern Green, but show an incorrect profile for the same loco when in Bulleid's utility black. Caveat Emptor.

 

Edwardian made the point at post #6, but a run-down on the different builders' styles and any subsequent changes would be useful.

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One further point, which appears to have escaped attention, and that concerns the mainframe profile in front of the smoke box. Number 488 of the 1885 Neilson batch had a singular frame profile which dropped from the front of the smokebox, almost to footplate level. Hornby and Oxford seem to have captured this well with their models of 488 in LSW livery. Oxford show 3520 correctly in Southern Green, but show an incorrect profile for the same loco when in Bulleid's utility black. Caveat Emptor.

3520 received replacement frames in SR days which differed from those originally fitted.

 

I'm not sure when, but it looks like Oxford have taken the trouble to find out. Both models should thus be correct.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling

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A gentle reminder that the SOUTH WESTERN CIRCLE is a source of information about the LSWR and its successors.  We have drawings, portfolios and access to a huge amount of photographs.  We meet five times a year and publish a quarterly magazine and periodic monographs.

 

Further information can be obtained by googling SOUTH WESTERN CIRCLE

 

Bill

 

Indeed, and thanks.

 

My own peculiar problem is that, currently, I need to renew my long-lapsed membership of the GW Study Group, Castle Aching demands membership of the GERS, M&GN Joint Society, and, probably GNRS, and other interests dictate the need to join line societies for the LSW, SE&CR, not to mention the Brighton Circle!

 

Well, I shall have to aim to join 'em all.

Edited by Edwardian

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A superb thread and just the job!

 

My interest in the LSWR is this.   When I were a little lad, my family used to go on holiday to North Cornwall.  This was, wonderfully, by steam from Waterloo.  Finally, this was the last mainline steam running from London.  So we'd go down to Exeter behind an MN or WC, the rebuilt ones being, arguably, the last design of express passenger steam to be built (rebuilt?) in Britain. Either way, they were leading edge, ultra modern locos. Young me didn't realise this was an  ending, rather than progress, of course. Soon, most of the ex LSWR  main line would be singled, and the "withered arm" west of Exeter would be gone for ever, together with all the steam locos that weren't  going to be (fortunately) preserved. Or indeed modelled.

After we'd found out seats my dad would take me down the front of the train to see what engine was pulling it. I think now it's his fault I do all this train stuff :-)

There was this magnificent example of powerful hissing modernity.  At the back of the train, though,  having brought it in, was an M7 tank engine from the turn of the 20th century.  At the time I though they must have been 0-6-2s like my Hornby Dublo N2. :-)   The best runs we had were behind rebuilt WC Trevone and Standard 5 73112.

 

While the trip west of Exeter would be behind an original condition WC/BB, we finished in the land of Beattie well tanks and O2s.  So my Ian Allen book got all sorts of locos recorded, from the latest to some of the earliest steam locos still running at the time.

 

My layout has a link of a few late crest era southern region locos and coaches.

 

So the North Cornwall particularly was a line with a history I found interesting,  The Adams locos were very elegant but I also think the Drummond chimney and dome plus cab roof look distinctive.

 

Now Hornby (and Oxford) have brought out the Adams radial in the original green livery, preserved but looking  nearly as it ran in 1886.   So another phase begins....

 

Bill

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A very evocative post, Bill.

 

So, if you can use a Radial chassis for a 380 Class 4-4-0, or 0380, if you prefer, you can pull the same stunt with a 46 or 046 Class, or "Ironclad" tank.

 

I should explain that volume 2 of the RCTS work on LSWR locos arrived today, so there are now some limits, at least, to my ignorance.

 

The 46, at least in its 4-4-2T form, looks like a baby 415 Class.  Like the Radial, the 46 Class has 5'7" coupled wheels at 8'6" centres, and a boiler of 4'2" diameter with the centre line pitched at 7', so I imagine you could use the Radial's boiler, shortened, and smoke box.

 

In the original 4-4-0T configuration, we have a very attractive little passenger tank.

 

I read that the 46 Class was Adams's first design for the South Western, intended for heavy suburban services and delivered by Beyer Peacock in 1879.  All were rebuilt with extended bunkers as 4-4-2Ts between 1883 and 1886.

 

Of interest to Jonathan and the Corfe Castle posse, the Class held its ground in London until 1903, at which point Nos. 375 to 379 were transferred to Bournemouth for use on the Swanage branch.

 

The whole class was on the duplicate list by 1905, but the first was not withdrawn until the end of 1913, ending up on the Brecon & Merthyr.  The remainder of the class survived to Grouping; No. 0375 and 0377 continued to work the Swanage branch, withdrawn in June and January 1925 respectively. 

 

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post-25673-0-18318800-1475687604_thumb.jpg

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  The Radial, I suspect, has potential for conversion to other pre-Grouping types.

 

At my request, Railroadbill very kindly photographed the chassis and took a measurement from the rail to the highest part of the chassis, which he gives as 36.5 mm.  Again, I repost his pictures.

 

 

I'd need to crunch the numbers on this but going off at a tangent (Sorry) although an expensive option I can see some possible 1880s - 90s Caledonian types in that chassis, it might be a good base for a Brittain's Oban bogie or Lambie's No 1 or No 13 class.

 

      The driving wheel base is about right though I think the front bogie is a tad to long and the cylinders would need raising and angling back slightly for the Oban bogie but the big issue is if the motor would fit inside the Caley locos boiler. Still this is all academic as at the moment it would be way outside my price range, still interesting thought.

                                                                                                                           Steve

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I'd need to crunch the numbers on this but going off at a tangent (Sorry) although an expensive option I can see some possible 1880s - 90s Caledonian types in that chassis, it might be a good base for a Brittain's Oban bogie or Lambie's No 1 or No 13 class.

 

      The driving wheel base is about right though I think the front bogie is a tad to long and the cylinders would need raising and angling back slightly for the Oban bogie but the big issue is if the motor would fit inside the Caley locos boiler. Still this is all academic as at the moment it would be way outside my price range, still interesting thought.

                                                                                                                           Steve

 

And not an ideal match, but the nearest you will get to a GER T26/E4

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A very evocative post, Bill.

 

So, if you can use a Radial chassis for a 380 Class 4-4-0, or 0380, if you prefer, you can pull the same stunt with a 46 or 046 Class, or "Ironclad" tank.

 

I should explain that volume 2 of the RCTS work on LSWR locos arrived today, so there are now some limits, at least, to my ignorance.

 

The 46, at least in its 4-4-2T form, looks like a baby 415 Class.  Like the Radial, the 46 Class has 5'7" coupled wheels at 8'6" centres, and a boiler of 4'2" diameter with the centre line pitched at 7', so I imagine you could use the Radial's boiler, shortened, and smoke box.

 

In the original 4-4-0T configuration, we have a very attractive little passenger tank.

 

I read that the 46 Class was Adams's first design for the South Western, intended for heavy suburban services and delivered by Beyer Peacock in 1879.  All were rebuilt with extended bunkers as 4-4-2Ts between 1883 and 1886.

 

Of interest to Jonathan and the Corfe Castle posse, the Class held its ground in London until 1903, at which point Nos. 375 to 379 were transferred to Bournemouth for use on the Swanage branch.

 

The whole class was on the duplicate list by 1905, but the first was not withdrawn until the end of 1913, ending up on the Brecon & Merthyr.  The remainder of the class survived to Grouping; No. 0375 and 0377 continued to work the Swanage branch, withdrawn in June and January 1925 respectively. 

The 46 4-4-0 tank looks really neat.  

"Steamroller" tank would be interesting as a fore runner of the radial, but those bogie wheels do look a bit weird.

 

As an aside, I did wonder if the radial would be similar enough for conversion to an LTS  original 4-4-2, but although the general dimensions are similar, the wheels are too small.

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If intending major surgery, especially if wanting to make a tender loco, I'd be looking at the Oxford Radial rather than the Hornby one on both economic and technical grounds.

 

It has the advantage (though it's not necessarily one in the Radial itself) that the motor and gears are connected by a short driveshaft rather than directly.

 

This would allow a tender mounted motor driving the loco via a stiff wire driveshaft, avoiding potential constraints on boiler diameter/pitch and giving room for useful extra weight above the driving wheels.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling

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Good idea using Oxford version as rails have started selling them at £74, perhaps if they come down a bit more....

The idea of the tender motor sounds good, got a Heljan litra F atlantic that is set up like that and it runs superbly.  I've seen a P4 loco at an exhibition with the same set up, would also allow different motors to be tried.  I've got a carden shaft and separate gear box from Branchlines for an original T9 project (another project in early stages!) - I'll  post  some pics.

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So, prompted by a number of things - photographs of coaches at Swanage in Weddell, visiting the Corfe Castle layout and starting to read through my latest acquisition, RCTS vol.2 - thoughts tended towards the Swanage branch, what ran there and when.

 

In the absence of a dedicated book on the subject of the branch, I thought I would see what I could find online. 

 

One unintended consequence of the preservation of a line is that Google searches usually throw up information on the preserved line, rather than on the history of the line.  Generally I find that I overcome this if I employ search terms such as "X railway history", or, "x railway old photographs".

 

I thought I'd share with you the result of searching for "swanage railway old photographs":

post-25673-0-41336100-1475776709.jpg

Edited by Edwardian

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post-4032-0-00877600-1475776120.jpg

 

Back on the trail of old triang/Hornby coaches altered to look like LSWR ones.    These are my tins of phoenix precision paints LSWR  salmon and brown.

 

Due to the arrival of new grandson my modelling time has been severely curtailed.  :-)

 

 

post-4032-0-62709500-1475776157.jpg

 

However, here are my cheapo coaches in primer and now masked up for salmon coat.   I have actually now applied the first coat of salmon paint, waiting for it to harden. I did have problems with my airbrush so more on this later. 

 

 

post-4032-0-98501300-1475776732.jpg

 

Out and about today I came across a new-to-me model shop that sold citadel paints. I bought this one, "squig orange". I don't know who squig is or what good guy or bad guy group he/she is in in sci fi wargaming). :-)  However, it isn't much different from the LSWR salmon paint (it's actually much closer than it looks in the pic).  The precision paint is nearly light flesh while the citadel one is nearly dark (caucasian) flesh.  So whitening the citadel colour as an experiment might give the same or a close result.   I shall press on with the precision colour for now.

 

More when the sun shines and I can have another session with the air brush!

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"I've also never felt brave enough to cut back the smokebox on the Hornby T9 which ought to be done to be completely accurate."

 

 

"Hornby T9 and Class 700 - These classes were extensively rebuilt. It would be difficult if not impossible to back-date them."

 

 

Here you go - butchery let loose on the two. Not SW but still Drummonds, HR and CR. The T9 is an approximation of the Small Bens and is a little beefy but fufills my desire of having working pre group locos running to current standards in my lifetime. The 0-6-0 is a lot closer to scale and,dare I say it, looking a lot better for losing that smokebox....

 

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post-2642-0-18096700-1475788373.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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Not likely to model the LSWR, if I'm honest, but this is a fascinating thread and I feel I'm learning summat!

 

One for the GE?

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Not likely to model the LSWR, if I'm honest, but this is a fascinating thread and I feel I'm learning summat!

 

One for the GE?

 

Well, bashing and bodging the GE is on my 'to do' list, so I hope to make a contribution at some point.

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Another clerestory modifying  exercise here  , http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/48268-kernow-commission-ex-lswr-gate-stock-pull-push-sets/page-12&do=findComment&comment=2455962,

looks very good on a nice layout, by Caddy in Queensland.

 

Re my clerestory coaches.

Got my airbrush adjusted properly today, replaced the plastic pipe that sucks up paint from the bottle and it works fine now, it wasn't picking up any paint to spray at all before. Now have second coat of salmon applied.  It's been a useful exercise in that I now know the right thinner/paint mix for Precision enamels,  and Precision's  suggestion on their website to hold the airbrush closer to the object  being sprayed than I would normally do has also paid off. 

Pics soon when paint has been left to really harden.

 

 

 

 

ed to add more detail.

Edited by railroadbill
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