Named GWR freight trains 1920's

[bgman]

Sensible head on now (no laughing at the back please !)

 

I am asking for help in respect of named freight trains on the GWR in the 1920's in and around Bristol and Bath ( or passing through ), more specifically the make-up of vehicles which may have been used and also any source of possible photographic evidence to show the same.

Would any written records have been made and if so where could they be found ?

 

Many of the regular fast freight services were given names and were of a mixed nature either from their origin or nature of the goods being carried.

 

​Here are just a few which I've managed to find from one book "The Heyday of GWR Train Services" by P.W.B. Semmens which lead me to ask the question :

 

Assumed to pass through Bath -

1.05 am  Acton to Bristol - The High Flyer

7.40 pm  Acton to Cardiff - The Early Bird

 

Possibly passing through Bath -

6.50 pm     Bristol to Birkenhead - The Farmers Boy

7.40 pm     Bristol to Paddington - The Bacca

9.20 pm     Bristol to Wolverhampton - The Western Docker

10.05 pm   Bristol to Paddington - The Cocoa

10.55 pm   Bristol to Laira - The Drake

11.15 pm   Paddington to Bristol - The Western General

12.30 am   Paddington to Bristol - The Mopper Up

 

As for the Class of loco's used to haul them I would be willing to hazard an educated guess !

 

Any help would be most gratefully received 

 

Grahame

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

Atkins, Beard & Tourret has a list of named vacuum and accelerated E Class freights, which includes:

 

3.40am Banbury Jc to Bristol, The Competitor

 

10.05pm Bristol to Leamington Spa, The Spa

 

12.25 am Bristol to Carmarthen Jc, The Bristolian

 

8.35pm Carmarthen to Bristol, The Open

 

7.45pm Manchester to Bristol, The Mon

 

4.58pm Marazion to Bristol, The Tre Pol and Pen Flier

 

8.05pm Paddington to Bristol, The Shopper

 

11.15pm Paddington to Bristol, The Western General

 

The text doesn't really assist in depicting any particular service, but affords a general idea:

 

The express freight loads varied according to the route and gradients, 50 or 60 wagons being common.  A limited number of trains carried 67 wagons behind a Hall or as many as 70 wagons behind a 47XX or a Castle, grossing over 700 tons.  Over 50 of these services ran daily and were timed at about 40mph.  Approximately a third of the train consisted of fitted stock connected to the engine, and all the wagons had to have oil boxes and be railway owned (not privately owned).

 

Except where 4-6-0s or 4700s are used, I would assume a 2800 for these freights.

[bgman]

Atkins, Beard & Tourret has a list of named vacuum and accelerated E Class freights, which includes:

 

3.40am Banbury Jc to Bristol, The Competitor

 

10.05pm Bristol to Leamington Spa, The Spa

 

12.25 am Bristol to Carmarthen Jc, The Bristolian

 

8.35pm Carmarthen to Bristol, The Open

 

7.45pm Manchester to Bristol, The Mon

 

4.58pm Marazion to Bristol, The Tre Pol and Pen Flier

 

8.05pm Paddington to Bristol, The Shopper

 

11.15pm Paddington to Bristol, The Western General

 

The text doesn't really assist in depicting any particular service, but affords a general idea:

 

The express freight loads varied according to the route and gradients, 50 or 60 wagons being common.  A limited number of trains carried 67 wagons behind a Hall or as many as 70 wagons behind a 47XX or a Castle, grossing over 700 tons.  Over 50 of these services ran daily and were timed at about 40mph.  Approximately a third of the train consisted of fitted stock connected to the engine, and all the wagons had to have oil boxes and be railway owned (not privately owned).

 

Except where 4-6-0s or 4700s are used, I would assume a 2800 for these freights.

Sorry for the short "Thanks" response last night, it was getting late and I needed my beuaty sleep !

 

I appreciate the time taken for your reply and its content. Unfortunately I don't own any Atkins, Beard and Tourret tomes any longer ( don't ask!) as it would have been my initial "go to" for any information.

You're quite correct regarding not depicting any particular service hence my posting, I guess I'll just have to keep asking/ searching.

 

Thank you anyway

[Edwardian]

Sorry for the short "Thanks" response last night, it was getting late and I needed my beuaty sleep !

 

I appreciate the time taken for your reply and its content. Unfortunately I don't own any Atkins, Beard and Tourret tomes any longer ( don't ask!) as it would have been my initial "go to" for any information.

You're quite correct regarding not depicting any particular service hence my posting, I guess I'll just have to keep asking/ searching.

 

Thank you anyway

 

I'm afraid it's the best I can do.  As most of these services were overnight, they were almost certainly camera shy.  My, admittedly insane, long-term plan is to re-create a full 24-hour timetable for a GW mainline in the mid-thirties, so I face similar issues.

 

A lot of the Soole collection pictures are around Bristol, but, again, the goods trains tend to be unfitted freights, or D Class, with high proportions of minerals including POs.

 

However, there is an E Class freight made up of cattle vans, box vans and Micas and some opens, both fitted and unfitted wagons north of Yatton and hauled by a Mogul.

 

Philip Hopkins captured a C Class fitted freight at Widney Manor in 1934, again with a Mogul.

 

Norman Lockett captured a Castle on an up broccoli C Class in 1938, a Bulldog on a short cattle and perishables C in 1939 and E (thought to be Tavistock Jc to Bristol) behind a 2-8-0 in 1947.

[bgman]

I'm afraid it's the best I can do. As most of these services were overnight, they were almost certainly camera shy. My, admittedly insane, long-term plan is to re-create a full 24-hour timetable for a GW mainline in the mid-thirties, so I face similar issues.

 

A lot of the Soole collection pictures are around Bristol, but, again, the goods trains tend to be unfitted freights, or D Class, with high proportions of minerals including POs.

 

However, there is an E Class freight made up of cattle vans, box vans and Micas and some opens, both fitted and unfitted wagons north of Yatton and hauled by a Mogul.

 

Philip Hopkins captured a C Class fitted freight at Widney Manor in 1934, again with a Mogul.

 

 

Norman Lockett captured a Castle on an up broccoli C Class in 1938, a Bulldog on a short cattle and perishables C in 1939 and E (thought to be Tavistock Jc to Bristol) behind a 2-8-0 in 1947.

Again Edwardian I thank you for your time to respond with this information.

 

Why do we set ourselves such tasks ?

[phil_sutters]

In my very small collection of GWR books, 'The Great Western Railway in the 1930s - volume one' , a collection of photographs by G.H.Soole, has far more goods trains than any other I have seen. OK it's in the next decade and most of the trains aren't express goods, but if you can beg, borrow or buy a copy it does give an impression of traffic in the inter-war years. Mr. Soole was obviously based in the Bristol area, as there are many photos around Patchway, Stoke Gifford and Bristol TM.

[Brassey]

My 1915 North to West working timetable has at least one of the vacuum goods specified to be hauled by 4-4-0's so I would not assume that all these trains were pulled exclusively by goods or mixed traffic engines.

 

There is also fish traffic that was attached to express trains.

 

Peter

[Kris]

 

There is also fish traffic that was attached to express trains.

 

 

A common occurrence as fish needs to be at market as soon as possible. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Can't post a link at the moment but the Warwickshire Railways website has some extracts from GWR publicity about named freight trains in the 1930s.

[bgman]

In my very small collection of GWR books, 'The Great Western Railway in the 1930s - volume one' , a collection of photographs by G.H.Soole, has far more goods trains than any other I have seen. OK it's in the next decade and most of the trains aren't express goods, but if you can beg, borrow or buy a copy it does give an impression of traffic in the inter-war years. Mr. Soole was obviously based in the Bristol area, as there are many photos around Patchway, Stoke Gifford and Bristol TM.

  

My 1915 North to West working timetable has at least one of the vacuum goods specified to be hauled by 4-4-0's so I would not assume that all these trains were pulled exclusively by goods or mixed traffic engines.

 

There is also fish traffic that was attached to express trains.

 

Peter

 

Thank you for your responses it is much appreciated. I have managed to track down a copy of the book and will await delivery with interest.

 

Grahame

[bgman]

Can't post a link at the moment but the Warwickshire Railways website has some extracts from GWR publicity about named freight trains in the 1930s.

Thank you I will "wade" through the site as well and see if there's any info much appreciated.

[bgman]

A common occurrence as fish needs to be at market as soon as possible.

 

Usually in one of these vehicles ( mine's unfinished!)

 

 

Cheers

[Coach bogie]

My 1915 North to West working timetable has at least one of the vacuum goods specified to be hauled by 4-4-0's so I would not assume that all these trains were pulled exclusively by goods or mixed traffic engines.

 

There is also fish traffic that was attached to express trains.

 

Peter

He was based at Bristol working for the GWR. The NRM has the virtually the whole collection. The two books has just a small mount of the full collection, which is available to view at York (which covers other UK railways and USA/Canada)

 

I have a long list of the freight 'nicknames' somewhere which I will dig out when back home. Certainly there was the 'Jersey' which was a fresh fruit and veg traffic from Weymouth Docks.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[bgman]

He was based at Bristol working for the GWR. The NRM has the virtually the whole collection. The two books has just a small mount of the full collection, which is available to view at York (which covers other UK railways and USA/Canada)

 

I have a long list of the freight 'nicknames' somewhere which I will dig out when back home. Certainly there was the 'Jersey' which was a fresh fruit and veg traffic from Weymouth Docks.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Hi Mike

Thank you for your reply, I would certainly appreciate any further information you may have, there is no rush as I'm attempting to replicate some of the stock and locos which may have been operating during the time period for a future project ( in its infancy at the moment !)

 

Grahame

[Rivercider]

Rail Centres Bristol by Colin Maggs has a chapter on freight.

There is a c1920 photo of Temple Meads Goods, and another taken in the 1930s though there are no freight train photos from the era.

 

Amongst other things he mentions the 2.25pm Padd - Temple Meads known as the Paddy Mail arrived at 10pm with from 2 to 22 vans,

hauled by any tender loco up to a King.

The return working known as the Cocoa began in 1905 as the first GWR vacuum braked goods train. Around 1914 it was often worked by The Great Bear

hauling 70 wagons from East Depot to Acton. 

 

cheers

[The Stationmaster]

Rail Centres Bristol by Colin Maggs has a chapter on freight.

There is a c1920 photo of Temple Meads Goods, and another taken in the 1930s though there are no freight train photos from the era.

 

Amongst other things he mentions the 2.25pm Padd - Temple Meads known as the Paddy Mail arrived at 10pm with from 2 to 22 vans,

hauled by any tender loco up to a King.

The return working known as the Cocoa began in 1905 as the first GWR vacuum braked goods train. Around 1914 it was often worked by The Great Bear

hauling 70 wagons from East Depot to Acton. 

 

cheers

 

And, according to many folk in the area, with 111 frequently being taken off at Reading due to a hot box on the trailing axle.  'The Cocoa' (sometimes also/differently called 'The Tobacco') was still running in the late 1960s although in different timings and not actually conveying any cocoa although it regularly conveyed tobacco products with a van for Reading and another for Slough plus those for Paddington.

[bgman]

And, according to many folk in the area, with 111 frequently being taken off at Reading due to a hot box on the trailing axle.  'The Cocoa' (sometimes also/differently called 'The Tobacco') was still running in the late 1960s although in different timings and not actually conveying any cocoa although it regularly conveyed tobacco products with a van for Reading and another for Slough plus those for Paddington.

Ah! Yes, the Great lady herself, oft written about.

Hot box problems, poor steaming apparently but still a good looker in my opinion.

 

There are several photographs and this one I think shows her off pretty well on the up line in believe at Bath Spa

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/11683956204/in/photostream/

[bgman]

And, according to many folk in the area, with 111 frequently being taken off at Reading due to a hot box on the trailing axle.

And as an "aspiring" scratch builder many, many moons ago having missed the kit available at the time I decided to have a go myself...

 

 

Not the best by any means but at least I had a go !

More hot fingers than "hot box" and like the original was consigned to other duties, mainly providing parts for other projects. I may consider a rebuild in the future if the fancy takes me.

[Fat Controller]

My 1915 North to West working timetable has at least one of the vacuum goods specified to be hauled by 4-4-0's so I would not assume that all these trains were pulled exclusively by goods or mixed traffic engines.

 

There is also fish traffic that was attached to express trains.

 

Peter

Fish and milk traffic was carried in what was generally known as 'Brown Stock', or Non-Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock; this was run either as entire trains, or as tail traffic on passenger trains, at passenger-train speeds. Such vans would also convey perishables traffic and general parcels.

The named freights (I wonder how many ever carried any such name on a headboard?) would be composed of ordinary goods stock, vacuum fitted in most cases. This might include 12t vans and opens, along with Conflats (from the 1930s onwards). It might include some of the long wheelbase and bogie Minks that the GWR ran between the larger traffic centres. Much of the traffic would be 'sundries' traffic, with a mixture of different commodities, but there could be entire wagons, or even groups thereof, from larger customers. From Bristol, these might include chocolate from Fry's at Keynsham, and tobacco from the warehouse next to Temple Meads; from Reading, biscuits from Huntley and Palmers; other stations would have their own specialities.

Traffic that wouldn't be seen would be anything in wagons with grease axleboxes (mainly coal and minerals); such wagons ran at much lower average and maximum speeds, and would be stopped frequently for examination. Their presence would have negated the purpose of these fast through trains, which was to convey finished and semi-finished products to the consumer as quickly as possible. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Thank you I will "wade" through the site as well and see if there's any info much appreciated.

Now I'm on a proper computer I found the link to Great Western publicity about named freight trains on Warwickshire Railways. It's on one of the Bordesley pages.

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/bordesley-named-freight-trains.htm

[corneliuslundie]

I would have thought that much of the traffic handled by these trains would have been in either vans of sheeted opens. In either case, the actual contents is a bit academic, but it does make your task easier. All those delightful special purpose vehicles were really quite rare in comparison.

Jonathan

[Coach bogie]

List that I have. It is presented as an image as the RM editor does not like columns.

Mike Wiltshire

[TheSignalEngineer]

The names probably give some clues to the traffic. The "Birmingham Market" was originally Irish cattle to be unloaded at Bordesley for the local slaughterhouses. The Bacca and the Cocoa were probably mainly tobacco products and chocolate in covered vans.

 

Not a "Night Owl" amongst the train names.

[Fat Controller]

The names probably give some clues to the traffic. The "Birmingham Market" was originally Irish cattle to be unloaded at Bordesley for the local slaughterhouses. The Bacca and the Cocoa were probably mainly tobacco products and chocolate in covered vans.

 

Not a "Night Owl" amongst the train names.

Some relate directly to products carried by the trains; others reflect produce for which the originating or destination station might be known; examples for this category might be the 'Sparagras'; and for some, one can only speculate.

[Guy Rixon]

The planked vans built c.1905 - V4 or V5, can't remember off-hand which diagram they were - were built with only hand brakes but converted to vacuum brakes almost immediately after building, according to ATB. I presume that these 16' vans were converted for the express freights and might have formed the bulk of a consist. The Coopercraft kit gives you the body, but extra work is needed on the underframe to get the vacuum brakes.