APT Fan Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 (edited) On 29/11/2020 at 23:56, charliepetty said: I am not quite sure what world you are living in, the cheapest decoders available are TTS from Hornby and they cost around £85.00 for a pair. The Bachmann 158 with sound is around £300.00+ Charlie Why do you need a 'pair'? Couldn't you fit a single sound decoder in the leading car and a multi function one in the trailer? I've seen the LOKSOUND V5 class 156 for £93 and a Zimo MX638D for £20. Look I'm not trying to have a go at you, but I am becoming disillusioned with the hobby because of the prices we are having to pay nowadays. Edited December 20, 2020 by APT Fan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TravisM Posted December 20, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 20, 2020 36 minutes ago, APT Fan said: Why do you need a 'pair'? Couldn't you fit a single sound decoder in the leading car and a multi function one in the trailer? I've seen the LOKSOUND V5 class 156 for £93 and a Zimo MX638D for £20. Look I'm not trying to have a go at you, but I am becoming disillusioned with the hobby because of the prices we are having to pay nowadays. Sound decoders and non sound ones have different speed settings as the sound decoder needs to apply whatever functions it’s asked of before moving. A normal one just works straight away. You would have to go into both decoders and adjust the CV’s so their both speed matched. I had something similar done to my pair of Hornby Class 153’s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APT Fan Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 22 minutes ago, jools1959 said: Sound decoders and non sound ones have different speed settings as the sound decoder needs to apply whatever functions it’s asked of before moving. A normal one just works straight away. You would have to go into both decoders and adjust the CV’s so their both speed matched. I had something similar done to my pair of Hornby Class 153’s. Yeah we discussed this in the 'Consist' thread including matching sound/no sound. I wanted to consist two identical locos with identical decoders and guess what, their speeds were slightly different so needed matching. You'd hope these would be better matched, so should be more straight forward. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted December 21, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, APT Fan said: Yeah we discussed this in the 'Consist' thread including matching sound/no sound. I wanted to consist two identical locos with identical decoders and guess what, their speeds were slightly different so needed matching. You'd hope these would be better matched, so should be more straight forward. How do you expect them to be better matched? Every motor has slightly different characteristics..as does gearing. Baz Edited December 21, 2020 by Barry O Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomScrut Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 10 hours ago, APT Fan said: You'd hope these would be better matched, so should be more straight forward. Unfortunately two "identical" locos can act quite differently. Having just run speed profiling in iTrain on a lot of locos this is very much the case across pretty much every loco type/class/manufacturer 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRDBLUE17 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Hi everyone, Quite agree, from experience, with what Tom said. I have a pair of 57’s both with Bifs excellent class 57 sounds and same version which run perfectly together. Bif also does a matched pair of 37’s which does work very well and gives you the added benefit of sounds that are dependent on direction so for example the horn sounds in the leading loco only. I have an identical pair of DRS 66’s that given the same decoders, matched settings etc behave completely differently with one taking off much faster. Not ideal when I wanted these to top and tail the RHTT. As for the 156, having the two decoder set up, whilst costing more for sound, does make for a very reliable pairing and provides numerous functions for lighting and things like playable destinations etc to be added without the need for a big clunky coupling between cars. APT fan - remember adding sound is a nice to have extra. Why not just get the unit so you don’t miss out on the one you want and then add sound in a few months time to spread the cost? cheers Mark 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted December 21, 2020 Author Share Posted December 21, 2020 19 hours ago, APT Fan said: Why do you need a 'pair'? Couldn't you fit a single sound decoder in the leading car and a multi function one in the trailer? I've seen the LOKSOUND V5 class 156 for £93 and a Zimo MX638D for £20. Look I'm not trying to have a go at you, but I am becoming disillusioned with the hobby because of the prices we are having to pay nowadays. See the DCKits site re the Twin Speakers: Matched Pair of Class 156 Sound Decoders: https://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=113_114_214_216&product_id=1342 Also does the £93.00 Class 156 have all these features enabled: ESU Version 5 Sound Function List: F0: Day time running mode (Front Lights) F1: Engines. CV259 - (0 to 128) F2: Playable High Horn. CV435 - (0 to 128) F3: Playable Low Horn. CV443 - (0 to 128) F4: Passenger Doors Open/Close. CV283 - (0 to 128) F5: Manual brake application(When moving) F5: Brake Dump (When Stationary) CV291 - (0 to 100) F6: Drivers Door Open/Close. CV299 - (0 to 128) F7: Compressor Speed Up. F8: Toilet Pipe Discharge. CV315 - (0 to 80) F9: Variable speed flange squeel. CV323 - (0 to 128) F10: Despatch Whistle. CV331 - (0 to 128) F11: Guard to Driver Buzzer/optional reply. CV339 - (0 to 80) F12: Interior Lights (With flicker). F13: Destination Blinds. F14: Automatic coupling/uncoupling. CV363 - (0 to 128) F15: Passenger Announcements 1. CV371 - (0 to 128) F16: Passenger Announcements 2. CV379 - (0 to 128) F17: Not Used. F18: Speed Dependant Detonators. CV395 - (0 to 128) F19: Cab Lights (Directional). CV427 - (0 to 128) F20: Night Time Running (Front Lights) F21: Parking Mode (Red Lights at both ends). F22: Wabasto Heater. CV355 - (0 to 128) CV155 to Change destinations: F15 F16 F17 0 / = Birmingham New Street 0 / = Cambridge 0 / = Stanstead Airport 1 / = Norwich 1 / = Lowestoft 1 / = Sheringham 2 / = Barrow in Furness 2 / = Clitheroe 2 / = Manchester Victoria 3 / = Colne 3 / = Blackpool North 3 / = Manchester Victoria 4 / = Liverpool Lime St 4 / = Preston 4 / = Ormskirk 5 / = Cardiff Central 5 / = Portsmouth Harbour 5 / = Weymouth 6 / = Skegness 6 / = Nottingham 6 / = Leicester 7 / = Matlock 7 / = Derby 7 / = Newark Castle 8 / = Grimsby Town 8 / = Lincoln 8 / = Peterborough 9 / = Ipswich 9 / = Norwich 9 / = Liverpool Lime St 10/= Sheffield 10/ = York 10 / = Leeds 11/= Carlisle 11/ = Leeds 11 / = Selby 12/= Newcastle 12/= Middlesborough 12/= Morpeth 13/= Scunthorpe 13/= Doncaster 13/= Hull 14/= Crewe 14/= Derby 14/= Stoke on Trent 15/ = Doncaster 15/= Lincoln 15/= Worksop 16/ = Chester 16/= Rose Hill Marple 16/= Manchester Piccadilly 17/ = Huddersfield 17/= Sheffield 17/= Manchester Piccadilly 18/ = Shrewsbury 18/= Buxton 18/= Manchester Piccadilly 19/ = Knaresborough 19/= Leeds 19/= Manchester Piccadilly 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir TophamHatt Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 The other question to consider is are the sounds over zealous for what most users require? I get the chips can hold that many sounds, but if there were less sounds for less price, I'd think these would be more popular. I just hope the cost of providing 17 sounds (plus however many announcements) instead of just 5-10 isn't passed on to the customer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APT Fan Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 44 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said: The other question to consider is are the sounds over zealous for what most users require? I get the chips can hold that many sounds, but if there were less sounds for less price, I'd think these would be more popular. I just hope the cost of providing 17 sounds (plus however many announcements) instead of just 5-10 isn't passed on to the customer. The issue here is having to pay twice for the sound decoder and no compromise is being offered, so its £180 for two sound chips with the files that contain the IP, when one is arguably redundant. Compare that number to something like the Hornby Class 43 TTS sound decoder pair for say £60. The two sound decoders for the 43's make more sense because the cars at either end of a (long) train, whereas these cars are next to each other here. I get that a lot of hard work is involved in creating the sound files and doing the synchronisation etc. and quite rightly people expect to get paid for their intellectual property rights. I think this particular application could be acheived with a single sound decoder and a standard motor controller which is a fraction of the cost. I appreciate that some speed matching would be required, but that needs doing either way. The point I was making earlier about hardware / software costs, I tend to think about the copyright costs for music. I've been a David Bowie fan since I was a kid and bought one of his albums on a cassette, I than wanted on LP so had to pay again. When it came out on CD, I had to pay for a third time despite already paying for that copyright. I should really only be paying for the price of the media rather than the full costs, but that's just how it is apparently. I really don't mean to be controversial, I'm an engineer and when faced with a problem I try to look at it objectively and ask questions, which might be difficult to answer. When something needs fixing, I ask myself how will I fix it rather than who will fix it, maybe that's just in my nature. I'm also not having a go at anyone who is prepared to pay the £400, its a personal choice. I might save my cash for the new Hornby APT-P which is in a similar price bracket and would only need a single sound decoder. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Kaput Posted December 22, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 22, 2020 The only way the Realtrack 156 would work with 1 sound decoder is either: A) Use a completely different sound project and miss out on most of the advanced features B) Put 1 Loksound in 1 coach and a Lokpilot in the other then program the sound decoder to handle needing to play all sounds instead of caring about direction and program the LokPilot to handle the lights. Bare in mind the model has 2 motors and the sounds are setup to play from the correct end - i.e. guard's whistles sound from the rear speaker instead of both. Theres no realistic way of doing that without 2 decoders, the closest comparable model is the new Bachmann 158 and while it only requires 1 decoder I'm pretty sure it only has a speaker in one coach. Owning a 156 with the factory sound I can entirely say its completely worth it and to be entirely honest, if it wasn't for the features of the sound version the model wouldn't quite so impressive. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted December 22, 2020 Author Share Posted December 22, 2020 7 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said: The other question to consider is are the sounds over zealous for what most users require? I get the chips can hold that many sounds, but if there were less sounds for less price, I'd think these would be more popular. I just hope the cost of providing 17 sounds (plus however many announcements) instead of just 5-10 isn't passed on to the customer. This is a pointless debate I think. Sound decoders cost what sound decoders cost, there are TTS decoders out there and people love them, there are 'Full Fat' decoders out there and people love them too. So if you want a Class 156 & Sound Decoder for £220.00 ish, then the Hornby 156 is for you, Realtrack sell sound fitted (Two Decoders & Two Speakers) for £340.00. The Bachmann Class 158 with Sound (1 Decoder & 1 Speaker) is around £315.00. There is always a choice. Charlie 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomScrut Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 8 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said: The other question to consider is are the sounds over zealous for what most users require? I get the chips can hold that many sounds, but if there were less sounds for less price, I'd think these would be more popular. I just hope the cost of providing 17 sounds (plus however many announcements) instead of just 5-10 isn't passed on to the customer. The decoders are about £90 anyway (if you want to buy a blank one) so the file itself doesn't actually add much in terms of cost. 29 minutes ago, charliepetty said: Realtrack sell sound fitted (Two Decoders & Two Speakers) for £340.00. Is that right? The pre order options say £380 sound fitted and £420 twin sound on your website. Twin non sound DCC fitted is coming out at £340. (See below) If I can get sound (with one sound decoder, one non sound I expect) for £340 I might need to be changing my order to that (from DCC ready)! My thoughts behind the DCC ready purchase was I could put 2 Lokpilots in for £25 each ish and upgrade to sound when I was ready. I can program the features myself. But if those prices aren't right and are less than above then I'd reconsider. 35 minutes ago, charliepetty said: there are TTS decoders out there and people love them I agree, whilst they are good for what they cost, I'd probably rather save £10-15 and have the features of a Lokpilot and not have the sound. I have a TTS decoder in a 66 and it's a nuisance not having the configurability nor having Railcom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted December 22, 2020 Author Share Posted December 22, 2020 1 hour ago, TomScrut said: The decoders are about £90 anyway (if you want to buy a blank one) so the file itself doesn't actually add much in terms of cost. Is that right? The pre order options say £380 sound fitted and £420 twin sound on your website. Twin non sound DCC fitted is coming out at £340. (See below) If I can get sound (with one sound decoder, one non sound I expect) for £340 I might need to be changing my order to that (from DCC ready)! My thoughts behind the DCC ready purchase was I could put 2 Lokpilots in for £25 each ish and upgrade to sound when I was ready. I can program the features myself. But if those prices aren't right and are less than above then I'd reconsider. I agree, whilst they are good for what they cost, I'd probably rather save £10-15 and have the features of a Lokpilot and not have the sound. I have a TTS decoder in a 66 and it's a nuisance not having the configurability nor having Railcom. The items we have in stock are the price I quoted, the Pre-Order ones are later next year. Who knows in 10 Months what prices may be!!!!!!!!!!!! https://realtrackmodels.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=70&product_id=212 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomScrut Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 1 hour ago, charliepetty said: Who knows in 10 Months what prices may be!!!!!!!!!!!! Fair cop, I was just checking I hadn't misunderstood the pricing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
girlinb Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 Hi Charlie If I place a pre-order for a 156 and pay just the deposit is the price honoured in the event of any changes? Regards Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted December 23, 2020 Author Share Posted December 23, 2020 10 hours ago, girlinb said: Hi Charlie If I place a pre-order for a 156 and pay just the deposit is the price honoured in the event of any changes? Regards Brian Won't know that 100% untill Covid/Brexit/Dollar settle down, Sadly no one knows. This applies to 'Everyone' not only us, we will try to but if everybody else is uncertain, how can we 'Be certain' One advantage we have is the Moulds & Tooling are fully paid for so its the production costings that will change only. Charlie 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TravisM Posted December 23, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2020 2 hours ago, charliepetty said: Won't know that 100% untill Covid/Brexit/Dollar settle down, Sadly no one knows. This applies to 'Everyone' not only us, we will try to but if everybody else is uncertain, how can we 'Be certain' One advantage we have is the Moulds & Tooling are fully paid for so its the production costings that will change only. Charlie I agree with you Charlie, nobody knows how things will play out after the 1st January 2021. I have two Class 156’s and I’d like a third but I’m holding back to see if there are going to be price rises in the basic essentials. You have to consider food, clothing etc or model railway? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BR Blue Posted December 23, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2020 Yes, its a bit much to expect Charlie to commit to something when there is so much uncertainty at the moment, for many reasons. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted December 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 24, 2020 On 22/12/2020 at 13:26, APT Fan said: The issue here is having to pay twice for the sound decoder and no compromise is being offered, so its £180 for two sound chips with the files that contain the IP, when one is arguably redundant. Compare that number to something like the Hornby Class 43 TTS sound decoder pair for say £60. The two sound decoders for the 43's make more sense because the cars at either end of a (long) train, whereas these cars are next to each other here. I get that a lot of hard work is involved in creating the sound files and doing the synchronisation etc. and quite rightly people expect to get paid for their intellectual property rights. I think this particular application could be acheived with a single sound decoder and a standard motor controller which is a fraction of the cost. I appreciate that some speed matching would be required, but that needs doing either way. The point I was making earlier about hardware / software costs, I tend to think about the copyright costs for music. I've been a David Bowie fan since I was a kid and bought one of his albums on a cassette, I than wanted on LP so had to pay again. When it came out on CD, I had to pay for a third time despite already paying for that copyright. I should really only be paying for the price of the media rather than the full costs, but that's just how it is apparently. I really don't mean to be controversial, I'm an engineer and when faced with a problem I try to look at it objectively and ask questions, which might be difficult to answer. When something needs fixing, I ask myself how will I fix it rather than who will fix it, maybe that's just in my nature. I'm also not having a go at anyone who is prepared to pay the £400, its a personal choice. I might save my cash for the new Hornby APT-P which is in a similar price bracket and would only need a single sound decoder. If you are an engineer just get on and do what you think will work.. one sound chip and one loco chip. Not sure what sort of engineer you are but most engineers are problem solvers - at least I am. Of course you could buy a cheap sound chip, record the sounds, download them and .. off you go... Baz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APT Fan Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 (edited) On 22/12/2020 at 18:35, charliepetty said: This is a pointless debate I think. Sound decoders cost what sound decoders cost, there are TTS decoders out there and people love them, there are 'Full Fat' decoders out there and people love them too. So if you want a Class 156 & Sound Decoder for £220.00 ish, then the Hornby 156 is for you, Realtrack sell sound fitted (Two Decoders & Two Speakers) for £340.00. The Bachmann Class 158 with Sound (1 Decoder & 1 Speaker) is around £315.00. There is always a choice. Charlie I think you make a fair point, I haven't seen either in the flesh but from what I have seen, the Realtrack model is infintely better than the Hornby model. I could be mistaken but it looks like they've used the Lima tooling to me, so Hornby are indeed offering a budget model. You have also mentioned different price points for your models and people could enter at the non DCC price point. If they were then looking to add the sound, say six months later, would the units need to be returned to the factory or could the cards be sent out? Edited December 24, 2020 by APT Fan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted December 24, 2020 Author Share Posted December 24, 2020 51 minutes ago, APT Fan said: I think you make a fair point, I haven't seen either in the flesh but from what I have seen, the Realtrack model is infintely better than the Hornby model. I could be mistaken but it looks like they've used the Lima tooling to me, so Hornby are indeed offering a budget model. You have also mentioned different price points for your models and people could enter at the non DCC price point. If they were then looking to add the sound, say six months later, would the units need to be returned to the factory or could the cards be sent out? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted December 24, 2020 Author Share Posted December 24, 2020 The Lima model dates from 1993 (27 years ago) He is a review for RM Web some time ago: The Hornby and Lima 156 are as you say basically the same model, the Hornby model is updated with a newer drive and pickups, but that's only it. Both models have no lighting at all, or even cab interiors for that matter as the motor bogie in the original Lima design meant they could fit a cab interior as it would of fouled the Motor bogie when pivoting around curves. The underframe detail is represented by a box, which has some very low relief detail on it. Even compared to Bachmanns current 158, the Lima 156 is poor in comparison for detail as well if you compare the two, and it doesn't have any representations of the BSI couplings or the snowploughs either which need to be added depending on which time youd be modelling the 156 on. Printing on the Lima model is good, but obviously not as good as up to date models but it was good for the time although its missing the Door open lights on earlier models, the coupling is the same between the units on both models, with some odd clip together style coupling used in a NEM pocket, although im not sure if you could fit Kadees into it? The glazing as well is pretty plastic on the Lima models, I think Hornby improved it but there is a gap in the market for some further etches and flush glazing for this model IMO 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium JDW Posted December 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 24, 2020 I have zero interest in sound personally, so the whole debate around cost is largely irrelevant to me beyond knowing that I wouldn't pay that much for something I don't want. I get why others like it, and admire the skill that goes into making it happen, but it's not for me. If I were doing sound, I'm sure with a DMU I'd want sound in both vehicles as both are fitted with engines, horns, door warnings, etc - I'd want sound from both vehicles as otherwise it seems pointless. I imagine it'd be like having a pair of class 20s but only fitting sound to one. Even if I were doing it with a Lima/Hornby one, I'd expect 2 engines = 2 vehicles with speakers, especially if the whole point of sound is added realism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TravisM Posted December 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 24, 2020 16 minutes ago, JDW said: I have zero interest in sound personally, so the whole debate around cost is largely irrelevant to me beyond knowing that I wouldn't pay that much for something I don't want. I get why others like it, and admire the skill that goes into making it happen, but it's not for me. If I were doing sound, I'm sure with a DMU I'd want sound in both vehicles as both are fitted with engines, horns, door warnings, etc - I'd want sound from both vehicles as otherwise it seems pointless. I imagine it'd be like having a pair of class 20s but only fitting sound to one. Even if I were doing it with a Lima/Hornby one, I'd expect 2 engines = 2 vehicles with speakers, especially if the whole point of sound is added realism. I have to agree with you, to a point. When I did modern US modelling, having two or three loco's running at full bore started to drown me out talking to someone or leaving me with a headache. I tried lowering the volume but then I seemed to loose something, it didn't seem right. I must admit that I'm 50/50 regarding sound and I'm sure I will upgrade my non sound fitted loco's and units eventually. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted December 24, 2020 Author Share Posted December 24, 2020 The Realtrack Model is at the Higher end of the DMU price bracket, but it has been designed for DCC & Sound, even the Non Sound versions have 2 x Pre-Fitted speakers 'Just in Case'. See an independant review below: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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