3D-Modeling AL5

[Evertrainz]

Was the throttle the type that had 8 different positions? Or, was it the type that sprung back to one position after the driver notched up or down?

[Dagworth]

The power handle on 81-87 had six positions. Off, run down, notch down, hold, notch up and run up.

 

Andi

[Dagworth]

I have the power handle from 86428 at home if photos would be helpful

 

Andi

[stovepipe]

The power handle on 81-87 had six positions. Off, run down, notch down, hold, notch up and run up.

 

Andi

 

Just to add that the last position is sprung-loaded so will return to notch up when pressue is released. 38 notches in full field and 2 in weak field. It will need a script to replicate properly in Trainz, the old way was to have 38+2=40 throttle positions.

[Evertrainz]

Hi Andi, appreciate the offer but I can work with the (detailed) pictures I find on Flickr.

 

Stovepipe, I'm confused, do you mean that if going from Hold to Notch Up and releasing, it will jump back to hold, and if you go from Notch Up to Run Up, it will bounce back to Notch Up? Did you have to hold it in Run Up for the loco to run to max power?

[stovepipe]

It's a straight lift from the description in the 1960 electrification conference proceedings. Its not 100% clear but looking at how it's been implemented in the other sim, it seems the spring pressure returns the controller to hold on notch up and notch down. If you want run up or run down you have to move the controller past the spring pressure to those positions where it will stay until 100% or 0% power is reached. Notch/run up are to the right of centre, so you move the handle down to notch up. The handle is a 9 o clock when in the hold position.

[Dagworth]

It's a straight lift from the description in the 1960 electrification conference proceedings. Its not 100% clear but looking at how it's been implemented in the other sim, it seems the spring pressure returns the controller to hold on notch up and notch down. If you want run up or run down you have to move the controller past the spring pressure to those positions where it will stay until 100% or 0% power is reached. Notch/run up are to the right of centre, so you move the handle down to notch up. The handle is a 9 o clock when in the hold position.

I'm pretty sure that it is only Run Up that is sprung, as it has high risk of overloading the loco if the ammeters are not watched as the taps run up. Normal driving is to keep the controller in Hold, and from a standing start to move it from Hold to Notch Up and back to Hold. Each time this will move the tap changer one notch up and give more power. The ammeters are marked in green, yellow and red bands and each time a notch is taken you can see the ammeters jump up, they then reduce as the speed increases. A driver will move the handle from Hold to Notch Up, back to Hold and repeat the action several times while watching the meters (and his speedo!) aiming to keep the ammeters near to the top of the yellow for maximum acceleration.  

Run Up is normally only used to put power back on once the train is moving and where power has been reduced and needs to be increased again (for instance after a neutral section - power is always reduced to zero before a neutral section, you don't want to hit a neutral with power on as it doesn't do the circuit breaker on the loco roof much good). Notch Down obviously reduces power by one notch at a time. The increase or decrease only changes by one notch each time the power handle is moved into either Notch Up or Notch Down, once that step has occurred no further change will take place until the handle is moved to Hold and back to Notch Up or Notch Down, or moved to either Run Up or Run Down where it will then click through the notches sequentially without the handle being moved from that position  Run down will rapidly move the tap changer back to minimum power, once the power handle is moved into that position the tap changer will click down through all the notches automatically for as long as the handle is in Run Down, and will stop running down if the handle is moved back to Notch down or Hold.

The handle should not be moved to Off unless the tap changer is at minimum. 

 

Desk from 86428

 

Andi

[Evertrainz]

Hi Stovepipe, I was going to post a pic from Flickr but I suppose Andi's picture above is better.

 

Andi, thanks for that explanation. So, going from zero power to full 'Run Up' would be the equivalent of putting the loco in notch 8 from rest? Or did you say that 'Run Up' gradually stepped the power level up until max? And 'Run Down' I suppose would set throttle to zero.

 

Is 'Notch Up' sprung? Or if driver moves from 'Hold' to 'Notch Up' would the throttle handle stay there? I thought it was sprung but you state it's only 'Run Up' that was spring-loaded.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Evertrainz

[stovepipe]

I think Dagworth/Andi has covered most of it. It's not possible to put the controller into 'run up' from rest, as it will overload the traction motors causing the circuit breaker to cut power. The correct technique is to to notch up 2 or 3 times from rest and let speed build up before notching again and so on, keeping the ammeters out of the red section. 'Run up' was not used below around 30-40 mph it seems to avoid wheelslip, and 'run down' always before a neutral section and then 'run up' again afterwards to move the tap changer back up the rack again, assuming speed was still above 30-40 mph. I'm not clear if the tap changer goes back to the previous position, by detecting back emf for example, or whether the driver estimates the previous postion.

 

None of this is modellable in Trainz though (well possibly some of it, with heavy duty scripting), so probably the easiest thing would be to set up a 40-position throttle representing each of the tap positions. You could potentially set up an animation to move the controller either to the right and back to hold when acceleration key is pressed and to the left and back to hold if the deceleration key is pressed.

[Evertrainz]

That explains it. I assume you could technically go from zero to 'Run Up' but it would cause problems as you stated.

 

Was 'Notch Up' sprung, 'Run Up' sprung, or both? It would be possible to script this by scripting the throttle value independent of the throttle position, so that we can control what each action does. For sake of simplicity I may just move the handle back to 'Hold' after each action, unless it is 'Run Up' or 'Run Down'.

 

In the event that you literally could NOT go from zero to 'Run Up', as in you were physically unable to move the throttle, I may add a check that determines whether the loco is above 37 mph. If one moves the handle and the speed is less that 37, the handle would spring back to 'Hold'.

[Dagworth]

I'm not clear if the tap changer goes back to the previous position, by detecting back emf for example, or whether the driver estimates the previous postion.

 

The tap changer doesn't have anything that would take it to any predetermined point, it only obeys the power handle. Note that Run Up and Run Down are not instant, if you are stood in the cab you can watch the tap indicator as it ticks up or down and it takes significant time to go from off to full or back again.

 

Does Trainz simulate the ammeters moving? If so be aware that they also jump up while braking as they read the rheostatic braking current.

 

As an aside, the only time I've seen the power handle put into Run Up from a standing start and left there was very early one morning when we had taken a light 86 from Ipswich, around the triangle at Manningtree to turn it and then back to Ipswich. Once we got back onto the mainline we stopped at the first signal, the driver spoke to the signalman to make sure we had a clear run ("fitters test mate, clear road to Ipswich please") then he put the thing into Run Up and left it there. 0-60 in under ten seconds and we were doing the ton by the time we reached the viaduct over the cutting north of Manningtree. I was standing in the cab watching the meters and had difficulty staying upright. Fun days.

[Dagworth]

Was 'Notch Up' sprung, 'Run Up' sprung, or both? It would be possible to script this by scripting the throttle value independent of the throttle position, so that we can control what each action does. For sake of simplicity I may just move the handle back to 'Hold' after each action, unless it is 'Run Up' or 'Run Down'.

 

In the event that you literally could NOT go from zero to 'Run Up', as in you were physically unable to move the throttle, I may add a check that determines whether the loco is above 37 mph. If one moves the handle and the speed is less that 37, the handle would spring back to 'Hold'.

Only Run Up was sprung, the handle would stay in any other position if placed there but in Run Up it would spring back to Notch Up.

 

After a neutral section the driver would take the power handle straight to Run Up, there was nothing to stop him doing so except the ammeters overloading (or wheel spin) if he did it at lower speeds.

 

Another oddity of ACs: The button above the direction selector has to be pressed to put the loco into reverse.

 

Andi

[Evertrainz]

Thanks Andi, Trainz does have an ammeter function, but not sure how to incorporate the rheostatic braking into it.

 

So tap changer is literally the indication of what throttle/power level the loco is at?

[Dagworth]

Thanks Andi, Trainz does have an ammeter function, but not sure how to incorporate the rheostatic braking into it.

 

So tap changer is literally the indication of what throttle/power level the loco is at?

Yes, the tap indicator is all you have to tell you what is actually going on deep inside the loco.

 

Going back to neutral sections, as well as not having power on through a neutral ideally you don't want to be braking through a neutral either as you lose the rheo brake.

 

Do you know about the APC magnets on the track at the neutral section?

 

Andi

[Evertrainz]

... you don't want to be braking through a neutral either as you lose the rheo brake.

Do you know about the APC magnets on the track at the neutral section?

 

No, I didn't know about either of those :-) . What are these magnets? A Google search doesn't turn up anything specific.

[Evertrainz]

How long did it take for the tap changer or power level to increase when in mode 'Run Up'? 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Evertrainz

[Titan]

No, I didn't know about either of those :-) . What are these magnets? A Google search doesn't turn up anything specific.

 

A neutral section is a short earthed section of wire used to separate OLE sections fed from different sub stations - usually from different phases so any connection or arc between them would be pretty catastrophic if the breakers did not trip. Here is an example:

 

 

There is a glass fibre rod insulator with arcing horns, followed by a short earthed section, then another insulator. Unusually the cantilever supporting the earthed section has insulators. Normally these would be omitted as there is no need for them.

 

APC or Automatic Power Control magnets are there to ensure that the circuit breaker on the roof is opened automatically prior to entering a neutral section, as a big damaging arc would be drawn across the insulators if the loco was still drawing power.

 

You can see the yelllow APC magnets either side of the track here:

 

 

The reason they are staggered is due to direction of traffic. When travelling at speed there must be enough time for the breaker to be properly opened, so the magnets must be placed far enough away from the neutral section for this to happen. The higher the line speed the further away the magnets are placed. However when leaving the neutral section the breaker can be commanded to close as soon as it has cleared the insulator, so the second set of magnets can be much closer . There is a receiver mounted on each side of the train as close to the centre line of the pantograph as possible, which usually means on the bogie under the pan. All the magnets are the same, and just flip the breaker on the train from on to off or off to on depending on its state. If a magnet is not detected and the breaker remains open the driver can close it by pressing the 'pan up' button, even if the pan is already up.

 

Their is an advance warning of a neutral section to remind the drivers to close the power handle before the breaker trips so that it is not under load:

 

 

You can see it here:

 

 

Further information here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_line

 

http://railsimroutes.net/blog/

 

https://www.railelectrica.com/traction-distribution/over-head-equipment-neutral-section/

[Evertrainz]

Anyone know the last 85 to enter service without a yellow panel?

[stovepipe]

I think they all entered traffic without yellow panels, despite deliveries extending beyond the date when other classes had them from new - Jan/Feb 1962.

 

The highest numbered loco with legible numbers that I can find without yellow panels is E3082, delivered in June 1963. This photo below is recorded as E3090, but of course that can't be confirmed now.

 

R0123 - Tamworth Low Level by Bill Wright, on Flickr

 

The earliest photo with yellow I can find is August 1965, by which time all of the class were in service.

 

004-10-Crewe-14-8-65-E3061 by david.l.quayle, on Flickr

Edited May 22, 2017 by stovepipe

[Evertrainz]

Hello and thanks for that info, after a bit of Flickr-digging myself I came to that conclusion. I think the (E)BSYP livery saw the most variety in body changes, followed by the underframe overhaul in the BR Blue livery.

 

By around 1963 or '64, what was the electrified section's longest stretch length? As in, what was the mileage of 25kv AC on the WCML? Around what large station would it be around early '63 to late '64?

Edited May 23, 2017 by Evertrainz

[stovepipe]

I think I covered that in this post. The Birmingham and Stoke loops came in Spring 1967.

 

More info here, click on the pdf button to get it.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=119

[Evertrainz]

Thats for those links, I forgot about your earlier post.

[Evertrainz]

http://www.dawlishtrains.com/driving-cabs-electric-loco.html

 

If you scroll down here to Class 81's first picture, and see labels no. 20 and 21, what did these "Exhauster Start" and "Stop" buttons do? I thought that the blowers were controlled by the reverser position, unless these refer to something else?

[Dagworth]

http://www.dawlishtrains.com/driving-cabs-electric-loco.html

 

If you scroll down here to Class 81's first picture, and see labels no. 20 and 21, what did these "Exhauster Start" and "Stop" buttons do? I thought that the blowers were controlled by the reverser position, unless these refer to something else?

Vacuum brake exhausters. The opposite of compressors for air brakes

 

Andi

[Evertrainz]

I've been having a play but am not too sure about the little details of the body livery. I am happy with the way it looks.

 

But are there any other missed details of the livery? I think the headcode box beading should be Electric Blue, and the grab irons on the front silver. Anything else?

 

AL5 R1

Edited August 3, 2020 by Evertrainz