3D-Modeling AL5

[Gibbo675]

21 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

 

The problem I have is you quoted a book as saying something when it clearly does not. In fact it turns out it is just your opinion dressed up as substantiated fact, which is disingenious to say the least.

 

In 55 years, no-one has ever documented two versions of 'electric blue'. It is early Rail Blue and the later Rail Blue, as per your swatch, and as represented on the Heljan locos. If only Marsden hadn't kept printing that the AL6 were delivered in electric blue livery for the last 30 years then all this nonsense would go away.

 

I will take primary sources over your unscientific, uncalibrated 'research' every time, especially when you misquote a reference book. By all means repaint your AL6 in electric blue if you want, but please don't pretend you have any actual evidence for doing so.

 

Hi Stovepipe,

 

You had better get onto Railmatch paints pronto as their current shade of Electric Blue matches exactly BS318/107, which is very strange as about 30 years ago Railmatch's shade of Electric Blue conformed to BS318/175. I know this as I went to the trouble to compare them both to a BS paint chart.

 

Not only does the above locomotive have arrows it is definitely a lighter shade than the coaching stock but hardly a lot lighter BS 318/107. The shade of blue is also a true blue without the hint of green that Rail Blue has even with the photographic emulsion argument the shade is different. Should you look at similar photographs of which there are plenty you will see definite differences in shade. Then again perhaps Crewe works couldn't mix paint !

 

Gibbo.

[cctransuk]

56 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

In 55 years, no-one has ever documented two versions of 'electric blue'. It is early Rail Blue and the later Rail Blue, as per your swatch, and as represented on the Heljan locos. If only Marsden hadn't kept printing that the AL6 were delivered in electric blue livery for the last 30 years then all this nonsense would go away.

 

If these are Rail Blue - of any date - I'm a Dutchman! (None are my copyright).

 

John Isherwood.

 

 

 

[stovepipe]

53 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Stovepipe,

 

You had better get onto Railmatch paints pronto as their current shade of Electric Blue matches exactly BS318/107, which is very strange as about 30 years ago Railmatch's shade of Electric Blue conformed to BS318/175. I know this as I went to the trouble to compare them both to a BS paint chart.

 

Not only does the above locomotive have arrows it is definitely a lighter shade than the coaching stock but hardly a lot lighter BS 318/107. The shade of blue is also a true blue without the hint of green that Rail Blue has even with the photographic emulsion argument the shade is different. Should you look at similar photographs of which there are plenty you will see definite differences in shade. Then again perhaps Crewe works couldn't mix paint !

 

Gibbo.

 

First off no-one is disputing there were three blue colours applied to AC electric locos, broadly as per your swatch - for the sake of the argument. What I am disputing is the term electric blue for the middle one as applied to AL6. They were delivered in a matt Rail Blue which weathered down quite quickly. The later rail blue with the green tinge came later, as a result of new paint fomulation.

 

If you are using the above photo as evidence, then as far as I'm concerned that is the same colour as the coaching stock, when comparing one flat side with another. i.e. a locomotive repainted in the then new Rail Blue. I do know that the carriage works achieved better finishes as time wore on and investment in new methods/ was made, resulting in the coaching stock staying in reasonable condition for longer. The locomotive builders and works facilities lagged behind in this respect.

 

Frankly what Precision Paints call their shades is up to them, there was one electric blue shade and it was applied to the AL1-AL5 from new only. Some were later repainted in the early matt Rail Blue. What they once knew they seem to have forgotten then.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by stovepipe

[stovepipe]

42 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

If these are Rail Blue - of any date - I'm a Dutchman! (None are my copyright).

 

John Isherwood.

 

 

You sir are a Dutchman, ....though not Rembrandt obviously The colour balance on those photos are all over the place. Scanned copies of many times reproduced originals perhaps? How else do you explain this photo of E3195 from 1966 then?

 

Or E3182 in 1967?

 

Or E3143 in 1966?

 

Or these two of mk2 Pullmans, showing real colours rather than blanched out white? Note how different the two pictures taken on the same date with the same film vary?

 

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, stovepipe said:

 

You sir are a Dutchman, ....though not Rembrandt obviously The colour balance on those photos are all over the place.

 

You believe what you will.

 

I was there, at the lineside, watching AL6s sparkling brand new; they certainly weren't Rail Blue; neither were they matt finish.

 

John Isherwood.

[stovepipe]

Ok if you say so...

 

E3129 Crewe 29 May 1966, introduced Nov 1965.

 

E3134 20 March 1966, introduced Dec 1965

 

E3162 30 Apr 1966 Introduced Aug 1965

 

E3180 6 Nov 1965 introduced Sep 1965

 

E3180 c1967 Introduced Oct 1965

 

E3200 c1966 introduced Feb 66

 

[lapford34102]

2 hours ago, stovepipe said:

They were delivered in a matt Rail Blue which weathered down quite quickly. The later rail blue with the green tinge came later, as a result of new paint fomulation.

I've been searching for a photo taken the EE factory showing 3 new loco's, a D2000/class 20 in green, an AL6 in Rail Blue and a production ED in Rail Blue. It was probably this photo that led to the myth that the early production ED's were painted electric blue. They weren't, it's that simple. I saw enough of them next to Cromptons, REP's etc to know that. In the photo the ED and AL are the same colour.

True  the finishes could look varied depending on all sorts of factors. The Eastleigh  finished Cromptons were brush painted and a tad glossy compared to the ED's but they were the same shade.

HTH

Stu

 

[stovepipe]

Yes I know the one you mean. I thought it was a colourail slide but I cant find it. I do have it somewhere in a magazine or calendar....

 

I did find this though...

 

 

 

 

[stovepipe]

I found a copy... Vulcan Foundry line up October 1965

 

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/78425/

 

[cctransuk]

49 minutes ago, lapford34102 said:

I've been searching for a photo taken the EE factory showing 3 new loco's, a D2000/class 20 in green, an AL6 in Rail Blue and a production ED in Rail Blue. It was probably this photo that led to the myth that the early production ED's were painted electric blue. They weren't, it's that simple. I saw enough of them next to Cromptons, REP's etc to know that. In the photo the ED and AL are the same colour.

 

You mean this one; (not my copyright).

 

 

I'm not sure that it proves anything - how do we explain the colour difference between the Type 1 and the Type 3 - both brand new from the same factory?

 

I don't contend that all of the AL6s were initially a shade of Electric Blue - perhaps it was only the early ones which didn't have the yellow panel? Whatever, at this late date it is of little import - to me, at least.

 

What did matter to me was that the Bachmann AL5 looked totally wrong in the colour that they have painted it - and it was sent back! Electric Blue it was not!

 

John Isherwood.

[lapford34102]

20 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

how do we explain the colour difference between the Type 1 and the Type 3 - both brand new from the same factory?

Fair enough but with regard to the above comment the only explanation I've heard that might make sense in that it was awaiting a clear topcoat. The Type 1 appears to be on accommodation bogies and It looks quite matt compared to the Type 3. 

Stu

 

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, lapford34102 said:

 The Type 1 appears to be on accommodation bogies .....

 

.... and it's lacking a scavenger fan and grille.

 

I guess that they needed a fourth loco for the photo opportunity and the Type 1 was incomplete; probably just a cosmetic 'rush job'.

 

John Isherwood.

[stovepipe]

Photo date 10/65

 

E6009 to traffic 10/65

E3193 to traffic 12/65

D8128 to traffic 01/66

D6608 to traffic 11/65 (the last one)

 

ergo D8128 wasn't finished - first of the new build.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, stovepipe said:

Yes I know the one you mean. I thought it was a colourail slide but I cant find it. I do have it somewhere in a magazine or calendar....

 

I did find this though...

 

 

 

 

Thanks Stove, saves me looking for the article.

 

From an article written by Brian Haresnape, who at the time was working for the BR design panel, so I think he knew what he was on about when saying the new AL6 were in rail blue, not electric blue.

[Clive Mortimore]

I am going to throw another spanner in the works.

 

Looking at the photo John has posted, Stove linked to and Stu referred to, the cab roof of E3193, is it rail grey? It is not white like the window surrounds, or the cab roofs of the AL1-5s. It has not had chance to weather which I have always thought was the reason for the roofs to be darker than the cab window surrounds on AL6s.  Looking at other photos on this thread, my eyesight says their cab roofs could be rail grey not white. 

 

Over to the rest of you, as I say my eyesight suggest grey.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Clive Mortimore

[stovepipe]

42 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Thanks Stove, saves me looking for the article.

 

From an article written by Brian Haresnape, who at the time was working for the BR design panel, so I think he knew what he was on about when saying the new AL6 were in rail blue, not electric blue.

 

That point about Haresnape had escaped me, but yes the Lawrence book referred to up thread describes him as BTC Design Panel advisor, artist and railway writer. He was also responsible for promoting Golden Ochre as a livery colour to the Panel which led to the trial with D1015, and later the use of light grey for the window panels on what became the XP64 livery. So yes I rather think he did know what he was describing for the AL6s.

 

And yes the cab roof does look grey to me too Clive.

 

[keefer]

Cab roof colour came up before.

I think it was a pic on Barking bill's Flickr which showed the window surrounds were white but the roof dome was definitely pale grey, if not actually Rail Grey.

Personally, I wasn't convinced by the counter-argument that the roof was simply 'weathered' white - there was to much of a distinction.

EDIT: to add pic

R0323 - Longsight DED by Bill Wright, on Flickr

 

check the set of 'electric' photos:

Railways - Britain (Electric) | Flickr

 

Note how reflected light on the loco body can make the colour seem lighter (photos of AL6 in BFYE - one with Lion&Wheel totem, the coaches look darker due to less reflection on the curved sides)

Edited December 21, 2020 by keefer

[Gibbo675]

12 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I am going to throw another spanner in the works.

 

Looking at the photo John has posted, Stove linked to and Stu referred to, the cab roof of E3193, is it rail grey? It is not white like the window surrounds, or the cab roofs of the AL1-5s. It has not had chance to weather which I have always thought was the reason for the roofs to be darker than the cab window surrounds on AL6s.  Looking at other photos on this thread, my eyesight says their cab roofs could be rail grey not white. 

 

Over to the rest of you, as I say my eyesight suggest grey.

Hi Clive,

 

To quote Brian Haresnape, "Pale Mushroom" is the colour for the cab roof and windows of the AL6, I didn't know he consulted with Farrow and Ball as well as the design panel !

 

As yet I haven't found a paint code so it would seem we are to kept in the dark about it.

 

Gibbo.