Barnt Green to Bromsgrove Electrification

[Liam]

There is no way they would be wiring to Bromsgrove if it required a new feeder station (maybe if the project was to Worcester or something that would justify something like that; feeder stations are the single most expensive part of an electrification), so the power supply will still be the same feeble arrangement that is there now. If a 92 would break it at Bourneville, it'll break it at Bromsgrove.

They should really electrify it all the way to Bristol Parkway, with perhaps the branch to Gloucester being covered as well. Perhaps we might see an 800 on the Lickey!

[melmerby]

They should really electrify it all the way to Bristol Parkway, with perhaps the branch to Gloucester being covered as well. Perhaps we might see an 800 on the Lickey!

I believe that is the eventual aim with the next hop being on to Worcester although that is some way off.

 

The current extension of the electrification is at the behest of TfWM (Formerly Centro) to bring Bromsgrove within the Cross City line service.

 

Keith

[28XX]

I didn't find anything when I searched (never can!) so started a new thread, but following your heads up have just found it.

There has been nothing posted after 25th January.

Maybe we could merge the two together?

 

Keith

I have no problem with them merging, if Mods can do that.

[28XX]

I believe that is the eventual aim with the next hop being on to Worcester although that is some way off.

 

The current extension of the electrification is at the behest of TfWM (Formerly Centro) to bring Bromsgrove within the Cross City line service.

 

Keith

I have no evidence, but I suspect that will be Worcester Parkway, not SH or FS, and thus form part of the through route to Bristol.

[Edwin_m]

On my way home from my namesake railway I was in a 153+170 formation with the 153 leading. You should have seen it march up the incline! I'm surprised a 170 stalled, although was it a LM or XC one?

Possible it had an engine out of action?  Not sure if it would have been allowed to attempt the bank if it had lost an engine previously but it's possible one failed on the way up. 

 

170s are a little underpowered - in my experience they never quite reach 100mph unless they encounter a downward gradient, possibly accompanied by a following wind. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Edwin_m

[CovDriver]

I do believe the instruction if you have an engine out on diesel unit such as a 170 you must contact the controlling signaller it's going to be the same instruction if we have a traction converter out on a 323 unit.

And only then with permission can we attempt coming up the bank. With a 323 it'll probably be service caped and wait for the next 323 service inbound to Bromsgrove with permissive working then couple up and form a 6 car set back towards New St.

That seems the most logical solution rather than faffing about waiting for a banker that's been mentioned previously.

 

Cheers

 

Col

Edited April 12, 2017 by CovDriver

[Supaned]

A Voyager also slipped to a stand on the bank last autumn,

 

Whilst it should be subject to special attention during the RHTT season , I'm led to believe that the RHTT had not run for a couple of days prior to the incident , so not that much attention was paid in reality , and they'd have probably got away with it had the weather not turned.

 

Sadly , lightweight modern traction does not like drizzle and wet rails , add to that leaf contamination and anything else and it isn't going to end well , and on a 1 in 37 bank even less so. To quote James Doohan "You cannot change the laws of physics".

[John_Miles]

It stalled because of leaves on the line, not lack of power.

[The Stationmaster]

It stalled because of leaves on the line, not lack of power.

 

Did it stall or did it slip to a stand?  

 

Quite a difference between the two - stalling is a result of inadequate power to shift the load (unlikely on a Voyager with all engines working except on a very steep gradient  - which wouldn't be the Lickey).  

Slipping to a stand is the result of loss of adhesion to get the power to the railhead and is due to the weight of the train overcoming the adhesive weight of the traction due - most commonly - to poor railhead conditions as a consequence of the weather and/or contamination (e.g leaf mould).

[John_Miles]

Mea culpa. I should have said slipped but if you read the preceding post it makes sense.

[melmerby]

 Perhaps we might see an 800 on the Lickey!

Maybe in diesel mode? IMHO it would struggle to get to the top.

It's a bit underpowered for something like the Lickey with only 2250hp for 5 cars of 300t total. = only 7.5hp per tonne!

 

Even the denigrated 170 has about 8.5hp per tonne and a 323 has about 13hp per tonne

 

Keith

[wombatofludham]

Funny, I could have sworn I made it up the Lickey without assistance more than once in a standard Intercity Cross Country 7 car rake of Mk2fs behind a 2,580hp Class 47! 

 

Mind you, it wasn't going very fast when it got to the top.

[melmerby]

 

 

Mind you, it wasn't going very fast when it got to the top.

Sounds like it was a "struggle" then

Probably about the same power to weight ratio as a 5 car "800"

About 10% more weight but about 10% more power as well.

 

Keith

[wombatofludham]

It was a bit of a struggle, but not quite as slow as the only time I travelled on a fully laden Class 101 up the bank, on a special.  We passed a small Ford Fiesta about halfway up, parked alongside the line, windows misted up and gently rocking from side to side.  Such was our rate of progress we had plenty of time to consider the physics of just how you could indulge in what was obviously going on in such a small car

[Siberian Snooper]

It was a bit of a struggle, but not quite as slow as the only time I travelled on a fully laden Class 101 up the bank, on a special.  We passed a small Ford Fiesta about halfway up, parked alongside the line, windows misted up and gently rocking from side to side.  Such was our rate of progress we had plenty of time to consider the physics of just how you could indulge in what was obviously going on in such a small car

 

I am led to believe that such activities are/were possible in minis, but I have no first hand knowledge, I started in an Anglia and soon moved up to a Cortina.

[jamie92208]

I am led to believe that such activities are/were possible in minis, but I have no first hand knowledge, I started in an Anglia and soon moved up to a Cortina.

 

Yes they were, and how do I know......(No sniggering at the back)  One rainy night in South Leeds we found a mini in an isolated road where many stolen vehicles were abandoned. On checking a young couple were found inside busily engaged.   The young man was being talked to by some colleagues so two of us walked to the car and jokingly said to the young lady  "I bet you can't wait till you're married and have somewhere of your own."   She replied  "We are married but we did all out courting in a mini and he can't perform in a bed."   We commiserated with her.

 

Jamie

[Phil Bullock]

It was a bit of a struggle, but not quite as slow as the only time I travelled on a fully laden Class 101 up the bank, on a special.  We passed a small Ford Fiesta about halfway up, parked alongside the line, windows misted up and gently rocking from side to side.  Such was our rate of progress we had plenty of time to consider the physics of just how you could indulge in what was obviously going on in such a small car

 

As a scientist with an enquiring mind as a callow youth it was of course necessary to test the physics - and biology - of this theorem - in a Mini although admittedly not half way up the Lickey!. Therefore a Fiesta must thoeretically also be possible although a randomised controlled experiment involving a statistically significant number of instances would of course be required before definite proof of concept could be postulated.... 

 

Phil

[Phil Bullock]

And talking of trains going up without bankers - this had to be the best in recent times...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arfINJXFNGI

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7We_0HGTiQ

 

If that doesn't make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up then you have no soul!

 

I was at Vigo on the up side and if there is one railway event that will always stay with me it is this one...

 

Phil

[Liam]

Gosh, she flew up the incline! My old man knows a lot about banking because as a boy he used to live in Beattock station, and the drivers of the Fairburn tanks and later class 20s would allow him and my uncle to join them banking up the summit. However, he left Beattock many years before Scots Guardsman climbed it unassisted.

[Supaned]

Funny, I could have sworn I made it up the Lickey without assistance more than once in a standard Intercity Cross Country 7 car rake of Mk2fs behind a 2,580hp Class 47! 

 

Mind you, it wasn't going very fast when it got to the top.

 

120 odd tons of weight pulling 234 tones of stock , with the tractive effort put down on 12 wheels , all of which had nice tread brakes capable of cleaning contamination off the tyre faces.

 

By comparison , a 4 car class 220 weighs in at 185t for a full set , ie 46t per car , of which only the two inner axles are powered , and are fully disc braked with no means of cleaning the tyres (apart from wheel spin or slide). 170s are also only powered on the inner axles.

 

Horsepower is pretty much irrelevant , ultimately it all gets applied to the rail through a contact point little bigger than a 5p piece and what IS needed is weight to apply onto that contact point and sufficient friction (ie not contaminated by water , oil , leaf mulch or anything else) to make it work.

[Phil Bullock]

Gosh, she flew up the incline! My old man knows a lot about banking because as a boy he used to live in Beattock station, and the drivers of the Fairburn tanks and later class 20s would allow him and my uncle to join them banking up the summit. However, he left Beattock many years before Scots Guardsman climbed it unassisted.

 

And Claytons too ....D8557 was on duty when I visited in 1970

 

It was allegedly possible to cadge a trip up the bank on the Hymeks or 37s at Bromsgrove although I never tried personally

 

Phil

Edited April 14, 2017 by Phil Bullock

[Edwin_m]

120 odd tons of weight pulling 234 tones of stock , with the tractive effort put down on 12 wheels , all of which had nice tread brakes capable of cleaning contamination off the tyre faces.

 

By comparison , a 4 car class 220 weighs in at 185t for a full set , ie 46t per car , of which only the two inner axles are powered , and are fully disc braked with no means of cleaning the tyres (apart from wheel spin or slide). 170s are also only powered on the inner axles.

 

Horsepower is pretty much irrelevant , ultimately it all gets applied to the rail through a contact point little bigger than a 5p piece and what IS needed is weight to apply onto that contact point and sufficient friction (ie not contaminated by water , oil , leaf mulch or anything else) to make it work.

By your figures the 47 plus Mk2s has 120/354 or about 34% of its weight on motored axles.  If the 220 has all its engines working it has 50% of its weight on powered axles, as there is an engine and motors in each car (a 170 has the same ratio). 

 

Weight on its own makes little difference to adhesion - it results in a larger friction force but that has to move a greater weight so it cancels out.  The tread brakes probably do make a difference, and also older stock tends to oscillate from side to side which scrubs the top of the rail. 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Edwin_m

[The Stationmaster]

And talking of trains going up without bankers - this had to be the best in recent times...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arfINJXFNGI

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7We_0HGTiQ

 

If that doesn't make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up then you have no soul!

 

I was at Vigo on the up side and if there is one railway event that will always stay with me it is this one...

 

Phil

 

The unassisted load for a 5XP up the Lickey was 200 tons and that train wouldn't have been very much over that, with an engine hopefully in tip-top condition and given a clear run (the 200 tons limit would allow for a standing start from Bromsgrove so getting a run at the bank would be worth at least half a coach).

[Phil Bullock]

The unassisted load for a 5XP up the Lickey was 200 tons and that train wouldn't have been very much over that, with an engine hopefully in tip-top condition and given a clear run (the 200 tons limit would allow for a standing start from Bromsgrove so getting a run at the bank would be worth at least half a coach).

 

Thanks Mike

 

Back in the days when the railway was run by proper railwaymen there would have been the confidence to do that no doubt....but that train sat in Shrub Hill for an hour whilst the operators debated what to do given the banker "no show"

 

Their eventual confidence was not misplaced....

 

Phil

[D854_Tiger]

Funny, I could have sworn I made it up the Lickey without assistance more than once in a standard Intercity Cross Country 7 car rake of Mk2fs behind a 2,580hp Class 47! 

 

Mind you, it wasn't going very fast when it got to the top.

 

Back in the day, I believe the limit for a class 45 (of similar power) unassisted was ten mk1s.

 

When Virigin were running XC they operated a through train on summer Saturdays from Manchester - Penzance formed of a WCML mk3 set, normally used on weekday Euston - Manchester services.

 

As the train was electric worked as far as New St, the formation included the DVT plus eight mk3s the normal WCML formation.

 

Although a mk1 was slightly heavier than a mk3, being non-air conditioned they had a much lower power requirement.

 

A single class 47 took over at New St then tackled both Lickey and the Devon banks, both ways, progress was a bit slow but great fun was had by all the cranks.