RMweb Gold john new Posted July 1, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1, 2017 Do US railroads use catch and trap points like we do in the UK? Although if they do the small N gauge model I am about to start will only be fitted with dummy/replicas if the answer is yes I would add some bits of spare rail adjacent relevant point-work to add to the scenery's authenticity. Reason for asking is they don't seem that obvious in the short-line, scenic railroad, videos I've been watching on line but those tend to concentrate on locos and rolling stock together with other bits of the environs around the depots rather than track work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 As the US has not used unbraked stock for a very long time, and has a much larger percentage of single track catch points would be very exceptional. Trap points between sidings and running lines are used to smae extent but much more commonly derailers are used for the same purpose. https://youtu.be/NaIQgNM_pMA Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnEntropyBubble Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 (edited) Hi John, No, trap/catch points are not used in the Canada or the US. We use "derails". There are a few types and are usually located beyond the clearance point (so a derailed car wouldn't foul the points when it came to rest). Here 's a picture of one from the Nolan Company. Hope this helps Andrew Edited July 1, 2017 by AnEntropyBubble Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted July 1, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1, 2017 Thank you for prompt replies. No wonder they weren't visible, not there! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 They usually use a temporary or permanent derail device that attaches to one rail. However, they can also use what is effectively a catch point (still called a derail) as in the photos below Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 Sometimes they cause trouble too. https://youtu.be/SmfPOsuNsfc Regards 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted July 1, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1, 2017 (edited) So in a layout used for pax services with a passing loop would the exit points on the through tracks have an over the track derail (as in the lump of metal in Grosvenor's answer) or a switch point as in Adrian's post? Sidings obviously the cast metal lump; are they lifted on/off or moved with levers? The track plan will be a roundy-roundy with a passing loop and spurs off to one side. Basically a test track for me to practice some scenic techniques, watch trains roll with the option of some switching too. The line will be freelance but for prototypes the Boone & Scenic Valley (Boone Co, Iowa) and the Great Smoky Mts (Bryson City, NC) lines seem to offer the option of running tourist pax trains with some commercial freight switching. Have never modelled the US before but having bought some stock with intention of stripping it down to use the chassis and bogies under O9 freelance locos on my Pebbles End layout I was impressed with them as they are. (2 bogie diesels plus a Baldwin 2-8-0 and an 0-6-0 tender switcher plus some pax cars and freight stock). I'm sure I will make many errors as a newbie to US railroad modelling but want to avoid as many howlers as possible. Edited July 1, 2017 by john new Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted July 2, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 2, 2017 (edited) John: I don't know of any derails on running lines. Ones I have seen are all on spurs; I don't think I've even seen them on passing sidings. There may be some at the downhill end. The cast ones can be worked any of 3 ways. Just lifting it on/off. A switch stand (I have a model kit for this). Linked to the manual switch stand on the turnout. In the last case, the switch stand is often halfway between derail and points. I think I've seen split switch derails on approaches to flat crossings (diamonds) and bridges. They are in the local news! Kitchener/Waterloo is installing a new streetcar line and a length of it runs jointly with the big railway. Just before their junction, there is a derail going in with a high-wide load detector. Residents are protesting because there was a derailment in that area, possibly involving some nasty stuff and they don't like the idea of deliberate derailments. https://www.therecord.com/news-story/7391067-derail-switches-installed-to-protect-ion-infrastructure-from-oversized-freight-trains/ (the picture does not show a derail) Edited July 2, 2017 by BR60103 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted July 2, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 2, 2017 Thank you. I think I will leave them off the main loops but add something on the spur. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 (edited) Thank you. I think I will leave them off the main loops but add something on the spur. I have only seen them on spurs where a runaway freight car or the like would cause problems. The one in my photo is just above a level crossing on a spur that runs downhill to an asphalt facility (and ultimately Lake Ontario). It was put in place after they started stabling a loco (which belongs to the asphalt facility) in that location, More photos here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70136-minimalist-locomotive-stabling/ A passing siding (UK translation - passing loop) typically would not have anything. Adrian Edited July 2, 2017 by Adrian Wintle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted July 2, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 2, 2017 Thanks all. Sidings will be level, hence disconnected air-brakes on any stock so no runaway risk. No need to add any extras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Thanks all. Sidings will be level, hence disconnected air-brakes on any stock so no runaway risk. No need to add any extras. Careful with the terminology, or it gets confusing.UK "siding" is a US "spur". A UK "passing loop" is a US "siding"!! Interestering fact is that more often than not in the US, sidings and spurs are laid at a lower level than the main line, & rise up to meet it. Hence even if stock did roll, it would have to defy gravity & roll uphill to foul the main line (if, course, they are laid on the level!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted July 2, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 2, 2017 Careful with the terminology, or it gets confusing. UK "siding" is a US "spur". A UK "passing loop" is a US "siding"!! Interestering fact is that more often than not in the US, sidings and spurs are laid at a lower level than the main line, & rise up to meet it. Hence even if stock did roll, it would have to defy gravity & roll uphill to foul the main line (if, course, they are laid on the level!). Another thank you. Will build that in for added authenticity. The sub-base is constructed already from 3 fruit boxes but I've not yet worked out exactly where I want to put the river crossing scenically so the additional layers for the track bed are not yet cut and fitted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Interestering fact is that more often than not in the US, sidings and spurs are laid at a lower level than the main line, & rise up to meet it. Hence the term "high iron" for a mainline. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted July 3, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 3, 2017 I remember one place where there was a warehouse up a bit of a hill from the mainline (near Etobicoke North). That spur had a derail.It also ran into a track parallel to the main line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotalLamer Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 (edited) They usually use a temporary or permanent derail device that attaches to one rail. However, they can also use what is effectively a catch point (still called a derail) as in the photos below DSCN1477s.jpg DSCN1478s.jpg Adrian An old post I know but I'd like to add that I've never heard of these being called derails. The image AnEntropyBubble posted is of a derail. What's posted here is called a split rail. As for where you'll find these, the answer is essentially any spur tying into the mainline. Industry tracks, storage tracks, small setoff tracks... even small yards will have a derail or split rail protecting the main. Basically if you're looking at a track that's accessed from a hand-throw switch off the mainline, that track will have a derail or a split rail. It doesn't even have to be a mainline. Say you've got an industrial park with some number of industries, each with their own spur accessed off a common track. Each spur will generally have a derail or split rail near the clearance point. In this case it does often depend on the terrain though. If the spur goes downhill from the common track, oftentimes there won't be a derail/split rail. Uphill though, likely yes. Edited September 12, 2017 by TotalLamer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotalLamer Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) Another point, as far as I can tell there's no rhyme or reason to why some places might use a derail and some might use a split rail. Derails are surely cheaper and are probably less effective, so maybe it's a cost thing. Also derails are much easier to add onto an existing track. So to illustrate this, here's a couple of industries directly across from each other. ABC Builder's Supply (receives centerbeams of drywall) and Lehigh Cement (receives... cement). ABC has a derail and Lehigh has a split rail. Why? The world may never know. The big picture: ABC: Lehigh: Edited September 13, 2017 by TotalLamer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) Generally, US practice is that a derail is only used on tracks used to store or hold cars and to prevent them from entering the main track. If it is a "passing loop" then its not a track for storing cars and it won't have a derail. If its an industry lead or track, then cars will be spotted (stored or held) in the tracks and the track generally will hae a derail. Whenever we downgraded a siding to a storage track, the roadmaster would have the gangs go out and install a frog derail on the ends of the track. By law you can't tie up an engine (leave an engine unattended) in a track connected to the main track in a track that isn't protected by a derail or a switch interlocked to the signal system. If its a low volume track, it will have a frog type derail. If its a high volume spur or industrial lead or its on a steep grade, then it might have a split point derail. You will find derails (typically split point) protecting drawbridges and lift spans and at a few very large interlockings. There will also be a derail protecting the entrance to a mechanical facility, not to keep stuff in, but to keep stuff out. Edited September 13, 2017 by dave1905 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 An old post I know but I'd like to add that I've never heard of these being called derails. The image AnEntropyBubble posted is of a derail. What's posted here is called a split rail. It does firmly have D for derail on the switch stand. I presume the terminology depends on the railroad/area as dave1905 calls them split point derails in the post above. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bok Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 We call them either a derail if it's a device over the rail or a split rail derail if there is only one switch point. Barry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 (edited) Another point, as far as I can tell there's no rhyme or reason to why some places might use a derail and some might use a split rail. Derails are surely cheaper and are probably less effective, so maybe it's a cost thing. Also derails are much easier to add onto an existing track. So to illustrate this, here's a couple of industries directly across from each other. ABC Builder's Supply (receives centerbeams of drywall) and Lehigh Cement (receives... cement). ABC has a derail and Lehigh has a split rail. Why? The world may never know. To a certain extent you are correct. Since a derail in an industry track is paid for and owned by the industry, a lot of it depends on the industry's requirements. A lot of them are legacy on tracks that may have been built 100+ years ago. I suspect that the track with the "flop over" frog derail was built earlier and before there was a requirement for a split point derail. The track with the split point derail was built after the requirement for split point derails was established. Of course if you want to know, ask the railroad. Here is a link to the UP's current industrial track standards for derails (and for those who have never heard them called "derails", that's what the US railroads call them). https://www.up.com/cs/groups/public/@uprr/@customers/@industrialdevelopment/@operationsspecs/@specifications/documents/up_pdf_nativedocs/pdf_up_std_2000.pdf Here is a link to the entire standards section: https://www.up.com/customers/ind-dev/operations/specs/track/index.htm Just to be fair, here is the same thing from the BNSF: http://www.bnsf.com/ship-with-bnsf/rail-development/pdf/indytrkstds.pdf Edited September 15, 2017 by dave1905 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof Klyzlr Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Dear RMWebbers, For your consideration... http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3581191 Happy Modelling,Aim to Improve,Prof Klyzlr 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
autocoach Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Dear RMWebbers, For your consideration... http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3581191 Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr A very interesting picture. The SP Bay window caboose is "in preservation" painted in SP and not used by the UP. It has the antennas and lights preserved or restored. UP generally does not welcome preservation efforts outside it's own marketing department. The locked derail with diversion rails is to ensure no chance of some old SP switchman going midnight rouge and trying to hook it up to a freight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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