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USERS MAY EXPERIENCE SLOW PERFORMANCE, THIS IS DUE TO A DRIVE ISSUE WHICH IS BEING INVESTIGATED.

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The last couple of evenings have been spent removing the rest of the motion parts from the sprues and cleaning them up. All I need to do now is work out where it all goes....

 

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I had originally planned to go to Kettering show this weekend with a stop over on Friday night. Taking the decision not to go has given me an extra couple of days of thinking/modelling time in which to really get my head into the inside motion.

 

Fellow member Paul Penn-Sayers had offered to cut out a motion plate for the J6 for me. Paul has also supplied lots of information and patiently answered my 'newby' questions regarding inside motion for which I am eternally grateful. While I fully intended to take up the offer events somewhat overtook me.

 

While studying the GA drawing to work out which bit was which on Wednesday evening I had the thought of importing it into Inkscape (the drawing package that I use to draw for the silhouette), rescaling it to 7mm scale and then highlighting the components that make up the motion so that I could see what they are.

 

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You can see the difference in the layout of the motion compared with the Midland variation in which the motion set from Laurie Griffin is based - below is a snip from the LG instructions.

 

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While I was doing my stuff in Inkscape, Chris suggested using my silhouette to create a template for the motion plate to test whether it would fit between the frames etc. I thought that a great idea and within a very short space of time I had drawn up and cut this

 

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I used that to transfer the measurements onto a spare frame spacer and drilled/cut filed it out. Due to using it as a template to scribe around, some of the measurements were fractionally over size, while the internal ones were slightly undersized. I kept filing until the slide bars fit and I got this. - I added the framing top and bottom afterwards.

 

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Looking at Paul's and Nick's superb motion plate examples,  I realise that I will have to file some relief in the tops and bottom of the slide bar seats/openings in a similar manner to the centre opening where the eccentric rods will pass through, in order to allow for the up/down movement of the piston rods.

 

This is it in the frames - held by a blob of Blue tack

 

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Although as I say I am very grateful to Paul for his offer to cut one out for me and looking at the example posted by Heather on Western Thunder, it would have been of a much higher fidelity than my first effort has achieved but it's a skill learned and Paul's help has helped me to make sense of GA's which has previously eluded me  - all the lines blurring into a shapeless mass. Another skill which will only improve with practice and should translate into better quality models at the end of it.

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Coming along nicely Rob, and especially using the Silhouette, its one of my better purchases too.

 

Grahame

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Alongside creation of the motion plate, I had to prepare the slide bars and make the cross heads fit.
 
Once I had them running nice and smooth and having test fitted them in the motion plate,  I detailed them with the very prominent oil pots on the tops. Made from spare etch and nickel rod
 
I am not sure why but these proved and absolute pain to take photos of...
 
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  • 4 weeks later...
Although there hasn't been much to share, work has been progressing on the J6.
 
We now have all the springs attached to the frame. Initially I though to have the centre springs removable and the for and aft ones just soldered on but in the end I drilled and tapped them all 12ba so they are all removable should the need arise.
 
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  • 4 months later...
After my interlude with the Streamlined Coronations I am now back on the J6. 

 

Over the last couple of evenings I have prepared the Finney Hornguides/blocks (nicked) borrowed from my A1 kit until I collect some more from the guys at Telford.

 

Then I started on the instructions which have you prepare the outer chassis first and then attach it to the tender footplate. 

 

Here's where I got to on that last night.

 

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Further work on the tender last night got one of the more difficult bits behind me - bending the one-piece tank sides/end.

 

However, I will start off with a bit of a gotcha! The instructions tell you if modelling post 1940 to drill out two etched dimples on the rear right hand side of the tender for hand rails that must have been fitted to some tenders at some point. 

 

Having done it I immediately started to think I wonder. Sure, enough when I looked at photos of 64206 which is the loco being modelled I noted no rear handrail....

 

So, I opened out the holes to 1.55mm and soldered some stubs of rod in - this is it from the inside

 

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And from the outside - thankfully nothing shows

 

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Next the tender sides are rectangular but on the real thing on the tender that I am working on there are cut outs for a handrail as in this example by Ron Bowyer.

 

14663148970_50f779a2c3_k.jpgGNR/LNER Gresley "J6" class 0-6-0 No. 64223. by Ron Bowyer, on Flickr

 

I have to confess to struggling with the instructions on this point so I went my own way. There are sections of etched beading to represent this and having worked out for myself how I believe they are meant to fit I tacked them to each end

 

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This allowed me to scribe a line to cut/file to and then I unsoldered them and removed the bits that needed removing. Time will tell as to whether what I have done is correct but studying various photos it looks right.

 

The next job was to drill out one of two dimples for the front handrail knob - these are design for a short rail where the top is cut out as I have done or a long rail where the side is left at full height. I drilled out the lower ones.

 

Then I carefully marked out where the first bend should be and then bent it using my Metalsmith Drilling table with a rod slightly smaller than the required bend clamped to it.

 

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If this sort of thing scares you take heart. I didn't get it right first time, I just calmly straightened it with fingers and thumbs finally using smooth bladed pliers to finish off and them remeasured and tried again. The first side (the one in the photos) I got right on the second attempt. The other side took three goes.... but I got there.

 

Next up is to solder in the bulkhead. 

 

Where the instructions are really lacking is that they refer to parts but don't number them so you are constantly searching the scans of the etches and the index to find out which part you are looking for - the scans are labelled with part numbers and there is an index but it would be so much better if the instructions had part numbers alongside the text.

 

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Then lastly solder the side/end piece to the footplate.

 

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Well I have to admit I have reache a bit of the kit instructions that have really stumped me...
 
"Take coal space sides, note the handling and drill 1.85mm at half etched pops if fitting scoop and tank vents, then fold so that the sides fit into the coal space front plate, tack into position taking care to be square to front plate. Sit the assembly into it's slot in the sole plate and tack onto position square 'each way'"
 
I found the parts easily enough and put them together how I interpreted the instructions but then found that there was nowhere/way that they would fit.
 
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There is a plan and top down outline drawing supplied but I can't figure out from which bit is the coal space front plate or which orientation it fits in.
 
My only saving grace is that there is one of these tenders attached to the C1 Atlantic at Locomotion so I plan to see if I can get aboard it when I am there next weekend to see how the coal chute/plate is made up on the real thing.
 
I am on my way to Telford tomorrow so I will have better things to think about until mid next week.
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  • 2 weeks later...
The plot thickens. It seems that there are two externally visibly the same tenders which may well be the 3000 gallon version and the 3500 gallon versions. 

By extreme good fortune this year I have taken photos of both. I had forgotten the other until today though.

The first one is located at Shildon, attached to the C1 large-boilered Atlantic and, as proposed in a recent post, I asked one of the museum assistants if I could be accompanied aboard to take photos of the tender top on Saturday and he obliged.

 

The other is attached by coincidence to the small-boilered Atlantic Henry Oakley whom I encountered at York earlier in the year. Although not great and I didn't get aboard, I did get enough details from my photos to work out which version I need for the J6 and more importantly that the coal space on the kit isn't quite like the two preserved examples each of which are similar but different.

 

Firstly what the kit looks like:

44596079091_04d39ac534_b.jpg

 

43686470245_dce590b5c1_b.jpg

 

Next the tender attached to the Large Atlantic

 

44595850961_0d5669ae25_b.jpg

 

44595849091_47f71d865e_b.jpg

 

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I have more detailed photos of the tender top on my Flickr site but these will suffice to tell the story to date.

Lastly the tender attached to Henry Oakley and the one which I believe that I need for the J6 when compared to the couple of photos I have of the prototype – no 64206 and more importantly the type that I believe the kit is meant to represent (unless there was a third type which looked externally the same.

 

44596903311_6142298422_b.jpg

 

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As I said, not the best photos but they do show that one side is higher than the other and there is a representation of lockers albeit the prototype show a small door on the higher side whereas the etch has a full height door. The key difference though is in the coal space. Both types of tender have a parallel rather plain functional coal space and I would be surprised if there was a third type that had one with the sloping sides that are inferred by the etches. I think that Malcolm Crawley got it wrong when he designed the tender kit but I would be happy to be corrected in that assumption.

 

Unless some evidence comes to the fore fairly soon to tell me that I am wrong I intend to modify the coal space to be more like that of the tender attached to Henry Oakely.

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The plot thickens. It seems that there are two externally visibly the same tenders which may well be the 3000 gallon version and the 3500 gallon versions. 
By extreme good fortune this year I have taken photos of both. I had forgotten the other until today though.
The first one is located at Shildon, attached to the C1 large-boilered Atlantic and, as proposed in a recent post, I asked one of the museum assistants if I could be accompanied aboard to take photos of the tender top on Saturday and he obliged.
 
The other is attached by coincidence to the small-boilered Atlantic Henry Oakley whom I encountered at York earlier in the year. Although not great and I didn't get aboard, I did get enough details from my photos to work out which version I need for the J6 and more importantly that the coal space on the kit isn't quite like the two preserved examples each of which are similar but different.
 
Firstly what the kit looks like:
44596079091_04d39ac534_b.jpg
 
43686470245_dce590b5c1_b.jpg
 
Next the tender attached to the Large Atlantic
 
44595850961_0d5669ae25_b.jpg
 
44595849091_47f71d865e_b.jpg
 
29657849097_89bec7e6d7_b.jpg
 
I have more detailed photos of the tender top on my Flickr site but these will suffice to tell the story to date.
Lastly the tender attached to Henry Oakley and the one which I believe that I need for the J6 when compared to the couple of photos I have of the prototype – no 64206 and more importantly the type that I believe the kit is meant to represent (unless there was a third type which looked externally the same.
 
44596903311_6142298422_b.jpg
 
44596907321_93c8551b6e_b.jpg
 
44596911561_40ffec5542_b.jpg
 
44596910361_e9dc8bac7d_b.jpg
 
As I said, not the best photos but they do show that one side is higher than the other and there is a representation of lockers albeit the prototype show a small door on the higher side whereas the etch has a full height door. The key difference though is in the coal space. Both types of tender have a parallel rather plain functional coal space and I would be surprised if there was a third type that had one with the sloping sides that are inferred by the etches. I think that Malcolm Crawley got it wrong when he designed the tender kit but I would be happy to be corrected in that assumption.
 
Unless some evidence comes to the fore fairly soon to tell me that I am wrong I intend to modify the coal space to be more like that of the tender attached to Henry Oakely.

 

 

GN Tenders are a minefield, with many subtle variations and many tenders which looked the same externally had different innards. I can't remember exactly how many variants there were but it was way more than 3.

 

There is a book which details all the versions, available from the GN Society and written by...... Malcolm Crawley. He knew more about the subject than anybody on the planet.

 

Having seen the many years of painstaking research that went into getting every variation noted down, I would be astonished if the kit was wrong.

 

He even listed which locos had which tenders at which dates. So modelling the correct tender for your loco at your chosen date should be possible. Altering your tender to be like the preserved ones could well change it from being right to being wrong.

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Hi T-B-G,

 

As I said above I am more than happy to be proved wrong but I am struggling to find evidence of what the tender attached to 64206 on 24th April 1960 was like internally. It may well be that the tender kit as designed is correct for a particular type of tender but not the one I need if that makes sense.

 

I plan to crack on with the chassis and other bits before taking the crunch decision - I doesn't help that I am struggling to work out just how the tender internals that I have go together. I suspect that if it had been straight forward I would have just built it as supplied and never looked further. 

 

A  builders life can be cruel sometimes...

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As I said above I am more than happy to be proved wrong but I am struggling to find evidence of what the tender attached to 64206 on 24th April 1960 was like internally. It may well be that the tender kit as designed is correct for a particular type of tender but not the one I need if that makes sense.

 

Rob,

 

Here are Malcolm Crawley's notes about the tender concerned.

 

64206 (originally 3557)  was attached to tender 614 from 29/08/35 through to 27/09/60.

 

This was a type A tender built to Tender Order TO 17 in 1903. The categorisation of tenders as A, and B (and so on) was on the basis of water capacity. An A tender carried 3,000 gallons, a B tender was externally very similar, but had an additional 500 gallons in a well tank below the main tank and between the front pair of wheels. Very occasionally you can see this well-tank in photos.

 

TO 17 were the first batch of Ivatt's self-trimming tenders; 3,000 gallons, and carrying 6.5 tons of coal, and to drawing R37. This drawing is presumably no longer extant, since Paul Craig has not included it in his "cleaned up" drawings in Malcolm's GNRS tender book. This batch of tenders is unusual in that it ran on 6'6"+6'6" wheelbase frames (as used on the previous "horse-shoe" tenders). All of the later batches had a 6'1.5"+6'10.5" or 6'+7' wheelbase.

 

As to what tender 614 was like internally, I suggest that it would be very different to the two preserved Atlantic tenders. Both are TO 13 type B 3670 gallon horse-shoe tenders running on 6'6"+6'6" wheelbase frames. The kit you have is the correct one for the tank shape, as it is self-trimming. There will be lifting rings front (just behind the tank vents) and back. The earlier Ivatt tenders often had a rectangular combined filler/access hatch, but in many cases these were later replaced by the combination you see in your photos.

 

If you have a photo of 64206's tender that would be useful, since many lost their scoops (and hence tank vents) after WW2.

 

Does this help?

Edited by davelester
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Rob,

 

Here are Malcolm Crawley's notes about the tender concerned.

 

64206 (originally 3557) was attached to tender 614 from 29/08/35 through to 27/09/60.

 

This was a type A tender built to Tender Order TO 17 in 1903. The categorisation of tenders as A, and B (and so on) was on the basis of water capacity. An A tender carried 3,000 gallons, a B tender was externally very similar, but had an additional 500 gallons in a well tank below the main tank and between the front pair of wheels. Very occasionally you can see this well-tank in photos.

 

TO 17 were the first batch of Ivatt's self-trimming tenders; 3,000 gallons, and carrying 6.5 tons of coal, and to drawing R37. This drawing is presumably no longer extant, since Paul Craig has not included it in his "cleaned up" drawings in Malcolm's GNRS tender book. This batch of tenders is unusual in that it ran on 6'6"+6'6" wheelbase frames (as used on the previous "horse-shoe" tenders). All of the later batches had a 6'1.5"+6'10.5" or 6'+7' wheelbase.

 

As to what tender 614 was like internally, I suggest that it would be very different to the two preserved Atlantic tenders. Both are TO 13 type B 3670 gallon horse-shoe tenders running on 6'6"+6'6" wheelbase frames. The kit you have is the correct one for the tank shape, as it is self-trimming. There will be lifting rings front (just behind the tank vents) and back. The earlier Ivatt tenders often had a rectangular combined filler/access hatch, but in many cases these were later replaced by the combination you see in your photos.

 

If you have a photo of 64206's tender that would be useful, since many lost their scoops (and hence tank vents) after WW2.

 

Does this help?

This is really useful information.

 

May I ask what type of tender was fitted to 3550? I have just started a build and thought it was running with a self trimming tender, but now I am not so sure.

 

Sorry about the hijack!

 

Dave

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J6 motion plate.pdf

This is really useful information.

May I ask what type of tender was fitted to 3550? I have just started a build and thought it was running with a self trimming tender, but now I am not so sure.

Sorry about the hijack!

Dave

 

Dave,

 

Sorry about this but I'm working from home today, and the books are on the ground floor and I'm in the attic up three flights of stairs engaging in a heated debate with the GNU C compiler about the way it choses to "graciously accept" my "suggested ARM assembler" (or not). I thought the Intercal-72 spoof programming language was just a West-Coast joke, but now I'm not so sure.

 

Anyway, remind me to reply either after 18:00 when I'll be downstairs again, or first thing tomorrow.

 

... oh, and don't get me started on the Stirling type D tenders that come with the London Road J3/J4 kits (do you sell these in O-gauge?). The variations on the basic design are so legion that I wouldn't know where to begin!

 

Still, for you and Rob, I include a part section including the J6 motion plate, though I think Rob ,might have preferred me to have posted sometime ago. :(

Edited by davelester
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attachicon.gifJ6 motion plate.pdf

 

Dave,

 

Sorry about this but I'm working from home today, and the books are on the ground floor and I'm in the attic up three flights of stairs engaging in a heated debate with the GNU C compiler about the way it choses to "graciously accept" my "suggested ARM assembler" (or not). I thought the Intercal-72 spoof programming language was just a West-Coast joke, but now I'm not so sure.

 

Anyway, remind me to reply either after 18:00 when I'll be downstairs again, or first thing tomorrow.

 

... oh, and don't get me started on the Stirling type D tenders that come with the London Road J3/J4 kits (do you sell these in O-gauge?). The variations on the basic design are so legion that I wouldn't know where to begin!

 

Still, for you and Rob, I include a part section including the J6 motion plate, though I think Rob ,might have preferred me to have posted sometime ago. :(

 

Thanks for this Dave, it and the information that you posted earlier have proven invaluable. This alongside Paul Craig's help offline has enabled me to confirm that I have the right tender kit and I am pretty sure that between Paul and I, we have worked out how it goes together too.

 

More detail as it happens.

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This has proven a very interesting side trip into the world of tenders from which I have learned a lot. I must also offer an apology to the late Malcolm Crawley for remotely suggesting that he might have had it wrong....

 

Thanks again for all your help gents, it is appreciated.

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This is really useful information.

 

May I ask what type of tender was fitted to 3550? I have just started a build and thought it was running with a self trimming tender, but now I am not so sure.

 

Sorry about the hijack!

 

Dave

Dave,

 

LNER 3550 was attached to tender 1122 between 14/3/31 and 10/5/33, and tender 1145 to 21/4/58. Both are type A.

 

They are both 3170 gallons, 6 tons of coal, to drawing R22 (extant in the NRM, I think). These are the "horse-shoe" tenders Rob photographed at Shildon. If they were ever fitted with scoops, they'd have been reduced to 3140 gallons. My suspicion is that they probably weren't fitted for water pick-up, but the tell-tale detail to look for is the "mushroom" vents at each side near the front.

 

Further details on these two tenders. 1124 was built by Dubs & co in 1898/9, and 1145 was built by Kitson in 1900. Both were originally coupled to GNR Class J5, the Stirling "Standard (hah!)" Goods. The Tender Order system only applied internally at Doncaster, so these tenders don't have a TO number.

 

Glad to be of assistance.

 

D.

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This has proven a very interesting side trip into the world of tenders from which I have learned a lot. I must also offer an apology to the late Malcolm Crawley for remotely suggesting that he might have had it wrong....

 

Thanks again for all your help gents, it is appreciated.

 

I'm a bit hesitant, but I think I might have caught Malcolm out on the Class C Stirling tenders. These look pretty much like the "D" tenders, but had 3' 6" wheels as befits their status as GNR Goods tenders.

 

The spotter tip for Class C is that the springs and axle boxes are 3" lower, and this shows near the tender footplate.

 

And for this reason I don't think they went extinct as early as Malcolm suggests. A minor quibble, and I really ought to double and triple check before claiming anything definitive.

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I'm a bit hesitant, but I think I might have caught Malcolm out on the Class C Stirling tenders. These look pretty much like the "D" tenders, but had 3' 6" wheels as befits their status as GNR Goods tenders.

 

The spotter tip for Class C is that the springs and axle boxes are 3" lower, and this shows near the tender footplate.

 

And for this reason I don't think they went extinct as early as Malcolm suggests. A minor quibble, and I really ought to double and triple check before claiming anything definitive.

 

He did get to the point where rapidly declining health caused him to rush the book out at the end and the Stirling tenders (as well as Sturrock ones) had not been investigated quite as fully as he would have liked. The book was rushed to print to get it out. He had wanted to get photographs, full details and drawings of each type but realised that he wouldn't see it finished.

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Dave,

 

LNER 3550 was attached to tender 1122 between 14/3/31 and 10/5/33, and tender 1145 to 21/4/58. Both are type A.

 

They are both 3170 gallons, 6 tons of coal, to drawing R22 (extant in the NRM, I think). These are the "horse-shoe" tenders Rob photographed at Shildon. If they were ever fitted with scoops, they'd have been reduced to 3140 gallons. My suspicion is that they probably weren't fitted for water pick-up, but the tell-tale detail to look for is the "mushroom" vents at each side near the front.

 

Further details on these two tenders. 1124 was built by Dubs & co in 1898/9, and 1145 was built by Kitson in 1900. Both were originally coupled to GNR Class J5, the Stirling "Standard (hah!)" Goods. The Tender Order system only applied internally at Doncaster, so these tenders don't have a TO number.

 

Glad to be of assistance.

 

D.

 

Hi Dave,

 

Both of those attached to the Atlantics at the NRM have mushroom vents - although I didn't post it yesterday because it wasn't needed to illustrate the point this is a photo of the inside of the front of the coal space on that attached to the C1.

 

44595845791_4845ba6e3f_b.jpg

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Hi Dave,

 

Both of those attached to the Atlantics at the NRM have mushroom vents - although I didn't post it yesterday because it wasn't needed to illustrate the point this is a photo of the inside of the front of the coal space on that attached to the C1.

 

44595845791_4845ba6e3f_b.jpg

Rob,

 

Beautiful photographs!

 

My comment about the mushroom vent was to Dave Hill, and was intended to imply that I doubt his particular tender (which ever one he is modelling) was fitted with scoops. Of course this being the GNR, anything is possible! Including that old tenders for goods engines might have been retrofitted with scoops.

 

So, as usual, look out for correct period photographs. It looks to me as though the tenders you are both interested in were coupled to the locos for long periods, so any photos of the locos should show the correct tender.

Edited by davelester
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