Second hand Duchess

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Hi Simon,

Ignore my comments. I meant to quote an earlier post and did not realise there was a second page to the thread. I see it has been pointed out that the tender is in fact something of a hybrid. It's a shame as you have put a lot of effort into improving it. Whatever you do to rectify the error will involve repainting so it's a bit of a dilemma. Hope you can find a solution that you are happy with.

Cheers,

Peter

[Simond]

Peter

 

You’re correct as far as I can tell. Not a fat lot I can do about it apart from take a trumpesque view of history!

 

Edit - I don’t think the tender is a hybrid ( I’m in France atm so can’t verify if it’s a 3 or a 4 in John’s Comet list) and it’s nicely built apart from some stray epoxy in the coal space, and a hideous corner-to-corner rock. There’s loads of bits missing, I’ve spoken to David @ Gladiator and he will sort out the castings when he next enters this hemisphere. The rock will be dealt with (Slaters axle-boxes& horns, needs the spigot machining to a consistent height on the 4 corners, and a bit higher in the middle pair) and the coal space is easy, I just need to go to another steam fair

 

I’ll probably have to scratch the bits & pieces of the under-frame.

 

 

Best

Simon

Edited May 5, 2018 by Simond

[jamie92208]

Hi Simon

Just discovered this thread and have thoroughly enjoyed reading through it.  I have a Finney7 Princess/Coronation to build when my current move to France is completed.  If I can get even part way to what you have achieved I will be very pleased.   It certainly looks good.

 

Jamie

[ikks]

Bit of a test run this evening, in wonderful weather

 

 

Seems to work...

 

Best

Simon

Brilliant..............She really looks the part!!

 

Rgds..........Mike

I

[Simond]

Thank you both

 

More to follow...

 

Best

Simon

[Simond]

Well, the last weekend was a bit of a wash-out in the laser department, but I did a bit of the Duchess today. There were gaping holes under the cab where the injectors belonged, and so I reinstalled them today. I made a bit of a cock-up as I missed the overflow on the exhaust steam one - I would have silver soldered it, but it’ll have to be drilled and soft soldered now.

 

The live steam one was fitted to a bracket which ties the copper wire “pipes” to the casting. I have no idea whose castings they are, but they are exquisite.

 

I looked at fitting the loco brakes but the wheels are terrifyingly close to the pivot holes in the chassis. As usual, there’s very little clearance, and shorts are a real risk, so I have a cunning plan... well, potentially four plans, I can move the holes, I can bend the pivot wire once it’s soldered into the holes, I could make rubber mounds from the cast brass brake shoes & levers and cast replacements in resin, or, I hope the most cunning of all; use 1mm diameter pultruded glass fibre rod as the pivot, and as the basis for the stretchers at the lower end of the arms too. This appeals, as the shoes will be completely isolated, and the brass castings are lovely. Waiting to hear from a potential supplier. Watch this space.

 

Pix of injectors:

 

 

 

And from underneath:

 

 

The eagle eyed will spot that the tender wheels have been metal-blacked, and a wire has been installed for tender pickups, which may get done this week. Two other areas of appearance to attend to are balance weights, and the ashpan. Probably plasticard...

 

Forgot to mention, sorted the rocking tender too, by adjustment of the spring locating pin in the hornguides, and then a bit of card superglued to one corner of the underside of the body to stop it pulling the chassis out of true. And then raised the tender by nearly a millimetre to match better to the loco.

 

The body-chassis thing reminds me of a pal’s 9F, which would not run well. I offered to have a go at it, and ran the chassis without body all over my old Greater Windowledge Railway, without issue. The problem was that when fitted to the boiler assembly, a twist was introduced in the chassis which rather nadgered things. Took a bit of fiddling to sort that, and keep the front buffer beam horizontal, but a happy ending

 

Best

Simon

Edited June 3, 2018 by Simond

[Focalplane]

Simon

 

I was wondering where the Duchess progress might be going, so glad to see this post. FWIW, Jim Mcgeown suggests slackening off one body=chassis fixing screw to prevent skewing the combined loco and the resulting poor running.

 

Your plan for the insulated brake shoes has me interested.

 

Paul

[Simond]

Thanks Paul,

 

Perhaps less of an issue with milled brass chassis, but certainly you’d expect the boiler assembly to be torsionally stiffer than an etched chassis, so if they aren’t built to match, its going to be a job to fix. I think there was a smidgin of twist in the tender body, though happily the loco is fine.

 

Will update when I see whether I can get the 1mm rod, and if it works, of course...

 

Best

Simon

[Focalplane]

Simon

 

I just re-read, and printed out, your post on the pickup design  I like the idea that the two sides float "together" with the one spring.  My next job will be to source the two types of bushes needed - I have all the other bits to hand.  Do you have a source for them or do you turn them yourself?

 

Paul

[Simond]

Hi Paul

 

Turn them myself. The ones in the frames are tufnol, the others are “knitting needle” or any other plastic

 

The little Unimat 3 is a useful tool, and a lovely toy!

 

Best

Simon

[Simond]

Another update, though sadly not an encouraging one. My cunning plan was to use 1mm pultruded glass fibre reinforced rods as the brake shoe supports, and as the core of the beams, as it is very stiff, and electrically insulating. Unfortunately there was only one supplier, and they stopped making it because there was no demand. And I’d have had to buy 5 metres if they did have some.

 

Next idea is to epoxy some 2mm polymer tube between the frames, and epoxy 1mm brass wire into that. This way i can hide the larger diameter, and insulate the shoes from the frames and each other.

 

Best

Simon

[pwr]

Another update, though sadly not an encouraging one. My cunning plan was to use 1mm pultruded glass fibre reinforced rods as the brake shoe supports, and as the core of the beams, as it is very stiff, and electrically insulating. Unfortunately there was only one supplier, and they stopped making it because there was no demand. And I’d have had to buy 5 metres if they did have some.

Next idea is to epoxy some 2mm polymer tube between the frames, and epoxy 1mm brass wire into that. This way i can hide the larger diameter, and insulate the shoes from the frames and each other.

Best

Simon

Simon

 

Don't Slaters do plastic brake blocks?

 

Paul R

[DCB]

CF2224F3-24EA-43C6-B1E4-553B4A19F20D.jpeg

It looks fantastic but where are the cab doors.  I have never seen a picture of a "Duchess" running  with the cab doors open.

[JeffP]

So do ModelU, but afaik, the Duchess/Coronation class brake blocks were pretty recognisable?

[Simond]

and the castings I have are exquisite...

[Simond]

As those who follow my other threads will know, the Duchess is both anachronistic, and highly unlikely to have travelled (when in service) to Porth Dinllaen. I know it went to Butlins at Pwllheli, so perhaps I’m being too picky...

 

Anyway, as it is unlikely to run on my layout, I thought it might be interesting to experiment with BPRC and Dead Rail. After much umming and ahhhing, I contacted Digitrains who are the agents for the Tam Valley products in the UK, and purchased a receiver and a handheld throttle unit.

 

https://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/search/drx022-drs1-mkiii-receiver-869mhz.aspx

and a DRT001 (white) http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/drs1deadrailcomponents.html which doesn’t appear on the Digitrains site.

 

The throttle is actually a DCC command station and throttle all-in-one which means that the receiver can operate any DCC decoder. This is quite clever as it means one can add receivers & batteries to DCC-fitted locos, without throwing away the decoder, it still uses it, so your sounds and any other customisations are retained. And, as you will see, conversion back to “standard” DCC is easy.

 

IIRC the throttle, receiver and decoder totalled just over £220.

 

I have everything “cobbled together” at the moment, and the cells I’m using are barely up to the job, but it works

 

I now have to decide how to finish the job. The options are to go for lithium cells or nickel metal hydride, and to decide how to charge them. For this loco, as it will be taken regularly to other tracks, handling is not so much of an issue as it might be for those that live on my layout, where on-track charging would certainly be preferred.

 

That said, I don’t want to dismantle the tender to get the batteries out!

 

Options

 

Lipo flat cells 4s gives 14.8 volts or 3s giving 11.1. Needs specialist charger, or home-built balancing charger to run off the track. Would probably need a step-up to get to 13V or so. Possible but fiddly. Adequate capacities available.

 

Step-up http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/u3v50alv-adjustable-regulator

 

Lipo single cell 3.7V, needs step-up to get 13V or so to operate receiver, decoder & loco. Capacities not huge, probably end up with parallel pack to get up to several Ah.

 

LiIon single cell 3.7V as LiPo, but capacities already at around 3.3Ah, so a 2P would give adequate performance and endurance

 

All the above would probably need to either be removeable or have a charging socket which could be hidden in the coal space.

 

NiMH AAA cells, 10S. 900mAh, would fit in tender, could use rectifier and charge limiting resistor, would give option to run off track power too (analog or digital, it wouldn’t care). This is attractive, but capacity at 700mAh is a bit low for true dead-rail situations.

 

NiMHM AA cells, probably can’t get 10 in the tender without serious surgery, which implies a voltage step-up, otherwise as AAA but 1900mAh cells available.

 

So I’m pondering.

 

Meanwhile initial pictures;

 

 

2 x 6s NiMH 300mAh cell packs in series. Temporary solution, as I had them available. Performance limited by limited Imax of the cells. Note polarised 2-pin connector.

 

 

Zimo decoder fitted with 2-pin non-polarised plug, which plugs into the yellow and white sockets in the

 

 

Radio receiver. The receiver wiring diagram is not turbo-helpful, but a helpful conversation with Peter Grant on the G0G forum clarified things, and Jeremy at Digitrains followed up with the missing page by email, so that was all good.

 

But also plugs into

 

 

Which is a two pin socket to which the loco pick-ups are connected. Red to red, black to black, so it goes forwards.

 

This means that I can unplug the battery and plug in a different one, perhaps connected to a voltage step-up, or I can plug the battery into the charger, or I can remove the radio receiver and battery and simply plug the decoder into the pick-ups, and have a conventional loco.

 

All of which makes for a very adaptable experimental platform.

 

More anon

Best

Simon

Edited August 4, 2018 by Simond

[Simond]

Short video of it running at John’s on Thursday evening.

 

 

But you can’t tell.... (apart from the spaghetti in the coal space)

 

Best

Simon

[Focalplane]

This is like Star Trek all over again! Lost in wherever I am. ET, ou est vous? Un tren et un pil? Je ne sais pas. Je suis perdu!

 

But seriously, this looks like what I could have done had I found some land and built a Languedoc garden railway, though whether the batteries would be happy with today’s 37°C temperature. . . . .

 

Phew,

 

Paul

[Simond]

37 degrees - great!

 

50 degrees, well you’d have worse things to worry about!

 

Watch this space, (the final frontier?)

 

Best

Simon

[Focalplane]

37 degrees - great!

50 degrees, well you’d have worse things to worry about!

Watch this space, (the final frontier?)

Best

Simon

Simon, when I was away for two weeks in early July the maximum temperature recorded in our roof top verrière was 46°C. In the shade but the greenhouse effect simply raised the temperature. I think the same temperatures could easily be reached in an unshaded garden railway. How might this effect batteries? I really don’t know, perhaps Elon Musk could tell us.

 

And then there is track expansion to think about but that’s another story.

 

I will be following your travels with interest! Paul

[Simond]

Paul,

 

Lithium cells start to degrade much more quickly when things get north of 50C. 46C in the shade could be very very hot in direct sunlight, and that would not be a good thing. And this in consideration of the heating effect caused by current running through the cells, you’d want to be a bit careful.

 

On the other hand, marvellous for live steam...

 

Best

Simon

[Simond]

A further step. I purchased a pair of 3Ah LiIon cells and a charger on Amazon , along with some cell holders, and a Step-up converter from Hobbytronics.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Barisc-Standard-Rechargeable-Capacity-Headlamps-1-Charger-2-Batteries/dp/B0772YRW4J/ref=lp_431407031_1_18?s=electronics-accessories&ie=UTF8&qid=1533919584&sr=1-18

https://www.amazon.co.uk/5Pcs-Battery-Holder-18650-Rechargeable/dp/B010B1QUYM/ref=sr_1_7?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1533919661&sr=1-7&keywords=battery+holder+18650

http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/batteries/step-voltage-regulator/u3v50alv-adjustable-regulator

 

Other suppliers are available of course.

 

The step-up converter has been bolted onto the tender chassis, and everything else is languishing, temporarily, in the coal space.

 

 

The weather is such that running isn’t currently an option (apart from on my locoshed layout, which isn’t much use as a trial) so, whilst I know it works, I have no data yet about performance:

 

The haulage capacity should be fine, the cells can deliver tens of amps, and the step up will do 5A in, so well over an Amp out, and the motor will draw less than that at stall.

 

Similarly, top speed should also should be fine, 12.8 volts no load, and it’s regulated.

 

Re capacity, I’m guessing, around an hour of continuous running on one cell, but I could fit both cells, which would logically double this.

 

I’m not going to perform surgery yet, but my thinking is to cut away the coal pusher and coal hopper of the tender, and to mount the cells and the receiver on a base inside, supported off the chassis. This would allow me to remove the cells for charging without dismantling the tender. I could then create a dummy coal load to cover the cells, and as this would be non-metal, it would also mean that the radio aerial could be hidden too.

 

This does mean taking the rather drastic step of cutting away the coal hopper, but it doesn’t seem to be inappropriate. Suggestions welcome!

 

There remains the NiMH route. If I cut away the coal hopper, I think I would be able to package 10 AA cells in the tender, and that offers the “charge from the track” option, which I rather like. I may experiment.

 

What I am currently sure about is that a single lithium cell, with a step-up converter, and the Tam Valley kit will allow any DCC-fitted loco to work on R/C, free of track pick-ups. The cost of the additional bits on the loco are about £45 for the receiver, £5-12 for a cell and £11 for a step-up. There are probably cheaper step-ups available, so perhaps £60, which is not crazy. The transmitter is about £75 but will control any number of fitted locos - one at a time of course. And you need a charger of course.

 

I’m not at all bothered by wiring layouts, I quite enjoy it, but with a garden layout, where the elements conspire, and the sheer amount of wiring needed, and when I think of the hours of fun I’ve had wiring and maintaining (and running on ) my mates’ layouts, I’d say it is an investment that should be seriously considered.

 

Best

Simon

[Fastdax]

A further step. I purchased a pair of 3Ah LiIon cells and a charger on Amazon , along with some cell holders, and a Step-up converter from Hobbytronics.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Barisc-Standard-Rechargeable-Capacity-Headlamps-1-Charger-2-Batteries/dp/B0772YRW4J/ref=lp_431407031_1_18?s=electronics-accessories&ie=UTF8&qid=1533919584&sr=1-18

https://www.amazon.co.uk/5Pcs-Battery-Holder-18650-Rechargeable/dp/B010B1QUYM/ref=sr_1_7?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1533919661&sr=1-7&keywords=battery+holder+18650

http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/batteries/step-voltage-regulator/u3v50alv-adjustable-regulator

 

Other suppliers are available of course.

 

The step-up converter has been bolted onto the tender chassis, and everything else is languishing, temporarily, in the coal space.

 

D5104915-BA60-48F2-AE1B-90D0CD433873.jpeg

 

The weather is such that running isn’t currently an option (apart from on my locoshed layout, which isn’t much use as a trial) so, whilst I know it works, I have no data yet about performance:

 

The haulage capacity should be fine, the cells can deliver tens of amps, and the step up will do 5A in, so well over an Amp out, and the motor will draw less than that at stall.

 

Similarly, top speed should also should be fine, 12.8 volts no load, and it’s regulated.

 

Re capacity, I’m guessing, around an hour of continuous running on one cell, but I could fit both cells, which would logically double this.

 

I’m not going to perform surgery yet, but my thinking is to cut away the coal pusher and coal hopper of the tender, and to mount the cells and the receiver on a base inside, supported off the chassis. This would allow me to remove the cells for charging without dismantling the tender. I could then create a dummy coal load to cover the cells, and as this would be non-metal, it would also mean that the radio aerial could be hidden too.

 

This does mean taking the rather drastic step of cutting away the coal hopper, but it doesn’t seem to be inappropriate. Suggestions welcome!

 

There remains the NiMH route. If I cut away the coal hopper, I think I would be able to package 10 AA cells in the tender, and that offers the “charge from the track” option, which I rather like. I may experiment.

 

What I am currently sure about is that a single lithium cell, with a step-up converter, and the Tam Valley kit will allow any DCC-fitted loco to work on R/C, free of track pick-ups. The cost of the additional bits on the loco are about £45 for the receiver, £5-12 for a cell and £11 for a step-up. There are probably cheaper step-ups available, so perhaps £60, which is not crazy. The transmitter is about £75 but will control any number of fitted locos - one at a time of course. And you need a charger of course.

 

I’m not at all bothered by wiring layouts, I quite enjoy it, but with a garden layout, where the elements conspire, and the sheer amount of wiring needed, and when I think of the hours of fun I’ve had wiring and maintaining (and running on ) my mates’ layouts, I’d say it is an investment that should be seriously considered.

 

Best

Simon

 

I shall be watching this with interest, Simon.

 

From what I have seen, if you want wireless, the Tam Valley (as sold by DigiTrains) DRS system is the most realistic way to go as it doesn't mandate the purchase of new radio throttles and still allows your existing sound decoders to be used to the full. Many of the other wireless systems don't seem to be that flexible.

[Simond]

Duncan,

 

Yes, absolutely.

 

The Deltang units seem to be very capable and practical, and potentially cheaper, if you want to do without sound. And there’s lots of positive experience on line to draw from. Afaik, the Tam Valley option is the only way of utilising an existing DCC investment.

 

I guess it depends how much you care about sound, as the decoder adds £80-100 per loco.

 

I wonder whether, if BPRC had been available & practical at the time I invested, whether I’d have chosen DCC at all.

 

Best

Simon

[Simond]

Well, I went down to John’s today, to do a bit of track maintenance, and took ‘er ladyship with me. Rather mixed results, a bit disappointing.

 

I’m not yet sure of the details or root cause, but I have my suspicions. Firstly the observations.

 

Loco ran light engine down the bank, no issues. Being reasonably bold, I coupled a 5-bogie-coach set on, and took it up the bank, it was built at 1 in 100 on a curve, but there’s been a little subsidence, so it might be a wee bit steeper in parts. It managed it ok, but the sound cut out part way up, and I wasn’t sure that the F2 braking was working as expected.

 

So I ran it back down, and hung another 4 bogie coaches on, the sound cut out very soon after starting. It very nearly made it but stalled, so I turned it down, bizarrely, it started wheel-spinning after a moment or two. The brakes were definitely not working. Had to turn it off.

 

Sound restarted when I turned it on again. Backed it down for another run. I mentioned the subsidence, there’s a bit of a hill the other way about a train-length outside the station throat at the bottom end. It slipped, and eventually stalled, but the sound didn’t cut out. Confused... YUP,

 

Finally, ran it back up. Sound cut again...

 

Finished the track repairs, very satisfied, and retired to the pub, somewhat frustrated with the loco. Probably should be philosophical, it’s an experiment, after all.

 

Ok, so what’s the problem?

 

The cells are LiIon 18650s, they are an unknown manufacturer, and claim to be 3000mAh. They might not be as rated (case 1), and, indeed, they may not be able to deliver the typical current that 18650s would (case 2) - you’d expect a C rating of at least 5 - which would mean that the cells “should” deliver at least 15A (for a short time). I doubt that this is the issue, but I’ll have a play at work tomorrow as we have the necessary resistors & meters etc.

 

The cell feeds a step-up voltage regulator. This was outputting 12.8 volts no-load, I didn’t measure it on load. It’s limited to 5A input current, which suggests that it should output around 1.25A at 100% efficiency, of course it’s not quite that good. The graph on the Hobbytronics site suggests that id expect about 85%, I’d guess it might hit the limits at about an amp. (case 3)

 

The output of the regulator feeds the receiver, which generates the DCC input to the decoder. If there’s voltage drop, the receiver may well “brown out” (case 4) and maybe, it’s simply not up to the demands of a large 0 gauge model (case 5).

 

The decoder is a Zimo 645. I’ve used quite a few of these, with no issues, but I guess it could be faulty (case 6).

 

The motor, gearbox & chassis have had a bit of running, but hardly a couple of hours, so it might be a bit stiff, again I doubt it, and the loco has, prior to fitting the decoder, hauled a bigger train up the same bank, so I doubt this is the root cause, though if there is a tight spot, it could be the camel’s last straw. (case 7)

 

 

So, best guess? Probably a brown-out of the receiver (4) due to excessive current demand hitting the limiter in the step-up regulator (3).

 

Now I need to confirm that, and, perhaps more importantly, how to fix it.

 

More soon...

 

Best

Simon