Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[Compound2632]

On 20/09/2021 at 06:36, Annie said:

And 2-4-0 No. 3510 rebuilt to the narrow standard gauge in September 1892 from a Broad Gauge convertible side tank engine.

I much prefer the Broad Gauge 2-4-0T myself.

 

Your case in favour of the original BG version is helped there by the Belpaire firebox and turkey-dinner dome on 3510. I can't help feeling that elegance is more closely approached by the five converted to tender engines in 1890, vide No. 3508:

 

 

From this, I can form a mental image of the engines as first converted to SG. 

 

The thing I do find a bit inelegant is the leading axle under the cylinders - an arrangement Patrick Stirling also went in for, to the detriment of the appearance of his 2-4-0s and 2-2-2s. Dean could produce a well-proportioned express passenger 2-4-0:

 

 

which really does look surprisingly like a proper engine:

 

 

[Exit, pursued by a bear.]

 

[Annie]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

[Exit, pursued by a bear.]

 

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The thing I do find a bit inelegant is the leading axle under the cylinders - an arrangement Patrick Stirling also went in for, to the detriment of the appearance of his 2-4-0s and 2-2-2s. Dean could produce a well-proportioned express passenger 2-4-0:

 

 

Yes it does look a bit like Dean had been sniffing about in the Red Zone with No.3235 in terms of its general proportions.  It does go to prove though that there is a definite 'right' appearance for classic late 19th century 2-4-0s

 

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Your case in favour of the original BG version is helped there by the Belpaire firebox and turkey-dinner dome on 3510. I can't help feeling that elegance is more closely approached by the five converted to tender engines in 1890, vide No. 3508:

 

 

From this, I can form a mental image of the engines as first converted to SG. 

Yes I much prefer the 1890 conversions as well.  The Belpaire firebox and the huge inflamed boil of a dome does No.3510 no favours at all.  Should I ever commision any of the post-1892 conversions I'll be very careful to specify their early 'as converted' appearance as my only choice and shall shun all others.  (Though I must confess that the Gooch type boiler is my most favourite of all when it comes to 'proper' pre-grouping GWR engines.)

(My thanks for posting this picture earlier)

[Annie]

I'm not sure what to think of these two engines.  They came from a website where it is believed that engines have faces and I have deleted with extreme prejudice any trace of faces from them both, but despite that I'm still remaining conflicted about them.  Midland locomotives are a rarity in Trainz and until Ed Heaps created his exquisite compound model there was only an older model of the preserved No.1000 for Midland enthusiasts to take comfort in.

The class 156 could possibly find its way into my little railway empire via the M&GNJR, but I'm not so sure about the 'Spinner'.

 

 

 

EDIT:  And the livery isn't right as I'm pretty darn sure that Midland engines didn't have big numerals on their tenders.  I'm seriously in the need of the wisdom of  @Compound2632 here.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Annie
A plea for help

[Northroader]

1905 is the date to bear in mind, before then the tenders had two panels, with “M”and “R”, and the locos had smaller cutout brass numbers on the cabsides, coat of arms on the splashers. After then large numbers went on the tenders, but seriffed, not plain.

The one thing I’d say needs getting right, as with most locos, is the chimney. Ditch the copper cap, and it should taper slightly inwards, not outwards. I suppose having the backs of the wheels grey rather than black makes them too noticeable, even if it helps current pickup?

oh, and the single’s axleboxes is much bigger than it needs to be.

oh, then in 1907 they remembered all the loco fleet, I think without checking your two are before  jobs.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Northroader

[eheaps]

A new Trainz loco that wouldn't have been possible without Annie and her RMWeb contacts helping to find some decent drawings.

 

[Edwardian]

Basilica Fields strikes again!

 

looks outstanding.

[Annie]

18 minutes ago, eheaps said:

A new Trainz loco that wouldn't have been possible without Annie and her RMWeb contacts helping to find some decent drawings.

 

Oh WOW!   My word Ed that's a sight to soothe sore eyes.  Absolutely beautiful.  What a wonderful cheer up for me this morning.

 

And I didn't really do that much I was just the messenger girl.

 

42 minutes ago, Northroader said:

1905 is the date to bear in mind, before then the tenders had two panels, with “M”and “R”, and the locos had smaller cutout brass numbers on the cabsides, coat of arms on the splashers. After then large numbers went on the tenders, but seriffed, not plain.

The one thing I’d say needs getting right, as with most locos, is the chimney. Ditch the copper cap, and it should taper slightly inwards, not outwards. I suppose having the backs of the wheels grey rather than black makes them too noticeable, even if it helps current pickup?

oh, and the single’s axleboxes is much bigger than it needs to be.

oh, then in 1907 they remembered all the loco fleet, I think without checking your two are before  jobs.

Thanks very much Mr Northroader.  I've had a closer look at how the texturing is done as well as various details on both models and it would be just too difficult to make anything of them and even then they'd still have problems.  The faces on engines crowd can have them back and good luck to them.

 

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Annie said:

EDIT:  And the livery isn't right as I'm pretty darn sure that Midland engines didn't have big numerals on their tenders.  I'm seriously in the need of the wisdom of  @Compound2632 here.

 

The genie is out of his bottle!

 

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

1905 is the date to bear in mind, before then the tenders had two panels, with “M”and “R”, and the locos had smaller cutout brass numbers on the cabsides, coat of arms on the splashers. After then large numbers went on the tenders, but seriffed, not plain.

The one thing I’d say needs getting right, as with most locos, is the chimney. Ditch the copper cap, and it should taper slightly inwards, not outwards. I suppose having the backs of the wheels grey rather than black makes them too noticeable, even if it helps current pickup?

oh, and the single’s axleboxes is much bigger than it needs to be.

oh, then in 1907 they remembered all the loco fleet, I think without checking your two are before  jobs.

 

Much so. The 4-2-2 has its post-1907 number and the 2-4-0, its last pre-1907 number. They are pretty crude representations - the lack of firebox on both is rather noticeable! Rather than go into extensive detail about what's wrong I'll just politely suggest that you put them quietly back were you found them and certainly not bring them anywhere near @eheaps's superb Compound, which has to be one of the most impressive digital models I've seen.

 

Johnson 4-2-2s in 1890s and 1910s condition (actually different classes, the one on the left is one of the earlier ones with slide valves, the one on the right has piston valves hence the deeper framing at the front end):

 

 

Kirtley 2-4-0s in 1890s and 1910s condition (again, not the same class but very similar):

 

That Holden 4-2-2 is a splendid model too, for all that it's by no means the most beautiful of singles. I did read that it was designed by one of Holden's premium apprentices as his passing-out piece.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Compound2632

[Annie]

Thanks very much Stephen.  I may not know all that much about Midland engines, but I knew enough to know those models were not all that good.  All trace of them has now been deleted from my hard drive and if in future I want anything to arrive from the direction of the M&GNJR I'll commision a suitable engine from a competent maker.

 

I'm still completely stunned about the Holden 4-2-2.  It's a while ago now that I passed on the drawings for it to Ed Heaps and all has been quiet since until he posted that picture of it a few minutes ago.  From the information we were able to find it seems that both Midland and GWR designs were referenced by Holden's clever apprentice and it certainly has a large dash of Midland with its valencing, driving wheel axlebox and splashers.

The shame of it was though they were excellent engines, but were swiftly outclassed by the Claud Hamilton 4-4-0's and became surplus to requirements with the inevitable result that they were scrapped well before they were anywhere near being worn out. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Annie
can't spell for toffee

[Annie]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Kirtley 2-4-0s in 1890s and 1910s condition (again, not the same class but very similar):

It would be one of the Kirtley 2-4-0 classes that I would be interested in Stephen.  In my twenties I owned a book on the early years of the LMS and it had a good many photos of Kirtley engines.  Unfortunately I no longer have the book, but my liking for Kirtley's engines still lingers on.

 

Work is almost complete on repairing and updating the Dean Goods and it runs very nicely.  The one remaining problem I have is finding a suitable model for an interactive cab interior.  The original TS2004 model used a cab interior from an Australian PB15 4-6-0 locomotive since that was about all that was available back then.  For the time it was an amazing piece of work with its realistic texturing and fully interactive controls, but it definitely wasn't a GWR cab interior.

The only two GWR cabs that are vaguely suitable are one for a Dukedog and the other for 'City of Truro'.  However both of these cabs are wider cabs than the Dean Goods cab and they have a screw reverser along with other non-Dean Goods like fittings.  At the moment I'm using the Dukedog interactive cab as the lesser of two evils, but I'm hoping that I can find something more suitable.

 

Just to clarify things the cab interior you can see in my screenshot is a low resolution definitively non interactive piece of texture work that's not the same as an interactive driving cab in any shape or form.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt3926.htm

 

https://locoyard.com/2013/12/18/dean-goods-2516/067-2013-steam-museum-of-the-gwr-swindon-gwr-2301-dean-goods-class-2516/

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Annie
added a link thing

[MikeOxon]

When I did a lot of Flight Simulator modelling, my favourite part was the instrument panel.  I don't know how things are done in Trainz but I greatly enjoying setting out realistic panels of working instruments and controls.  It was surprising how few models had accurate designs.  I was especially pleased with my Spitfire PR XIX panel:

[Annie]

8 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

When I did a lot of Flight Simulator modelling, my favourite part was the instrument panel.  I don't know how things are done in Trainz but I greatly enjoying setting out realistic panels of working instruments and controls.  It was surprising how few models had accurate designs.  I was especially pleased with my Spitfire PR XIX panel:

There are fittings and animated control libraries available for Trainz Mike and the scripting has been worked out for them, but the hard part is building them into a cab model mesh and getting it all working.  With me not having a clue about 3D modelling I'm stuck with having to find a cab model that's close enough to what I want.

Nice work on your Spitfire panel.  My daughter is keen on flight sims.

[Annie]

Broad Gauge cheer up pictures:  'Giraffe' built for the South Devon Railway in June 1859 by Slaughter, Gruning & Co.

 

 

And a set of models of early GWR and constituent companies signals made for a German museum in 1907.

 

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Annie said:

Broad Gauge cheer up pictures:  'Giraffe' built for the South Devon Railway in June 1859 by Slaughter, Gruning & Co.

 

“Convert to the coal-cart gauge? You ‘aving a giraffe?”

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Annie said:

Broad Gauge cheer up pictures:  'Giraffe' built for the South Devon Railway in June 1859 by Slaughter, Gruning & Co.

 

 

 

The "neck" is certainly long enough.... 

 

[Annie]

I may have posted this before, but I don't care because i like it.

 

 

[Edwardian]

Past the furniture factory and over the bridge - check rail all the way across the bridge, I notice - then into the old Barnstaple Quay station (1874), which must be out of use at this point, where a signalman waves a flag. It was renamed Barnstaple Town in 1886 only to be replaced by the second Barnstaple Town station in 1898 when the Lynton & Barnstaple was opened.  This we next pas, where the signalman makes rather disapproving gestures (!), and then Rolle Quay is seen across the creek to the right.  

 

Marvellous!

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Edwardian
spelling

[Annie]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

.......where the signalman makes rather disapproving gestures (!),

Yes he didn't seem to be to pleased too see a camera man perched on the front of the locomotive (or was he riding in an open wagon?).

 

Now because I rattle on about my Norfolk layout as if I think you know where everything is when I get lost on my own layout all the time,  - I thought it might be best if I drew up a schematic map of where everything is.  Now I can't draw maps for toffee so this isn't the best map, but it might help you to feel a bit less lost once I start rambling on.  One or two stations on the Eastlingwold & Great Mulling line have been omitted since they are being revised and possibly renamed. 

I decided to leave off the tramways from this map because they are a sizeable network all by themselves and i was getting confused enough just drawing out the mainline railways.

 

EDIT:  Bother! I forgot the Hunters Rove branch at Foxhollow.  Bother bother bother.......  Map has now been amended.

 

Click on the map to see it full size.

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Annie
Replaced map

[Annie]

I was able to do some testing and generally playing trains this morning which was a lot of fun.  Last week I spent some of my pocket money on an L&Y Class 5 tank engine from Cameron Scott at Darlington Works.  There's three different livery versions, but I like this one best.  I should really be running it on one of the northern lines and not the western line out of Moxbury, but I wanted to put it through its paces first.

Comparing the L&Y class 5 to my much older MS&LR class 9F which was also made by Cameron Scott I can see how much his skills have developed over the past three years.  The class 5 has fully animated valve gear as well as a fully detailed cab, both of which the class 9F is lacking, but that doesn't mean I'm going to give up on my nice green MS&LR 9F's since they run well and still look good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I ran the Dean Goods through all the various permutations of shunting and goods traffic maneuvers between Moxbury, the Western Loop and the North Eastern Loop and all was good.  That was a relief because the pointwork controlling the two North Eastern Loop lines was a bit on the tricky side to lay in place.

 

[Annie]

I also followed No.8 in charge of the Windweather Loop Line passenger around for a while.  With TRS19 having broken some of the interactive assets on the layout I'm having to do some rethinking of how various schedules work.  The Loop Line passenger service schedule is one of the first I devised and it's been completely reliable so I certainly don't want to make a mess of any revisions.

 

 

Tenpenny Beach.

 

Windweather Harbour.

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, Annie said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your L&Y carriages look very much like the forthcoming Hattons ones. I suppose that's because, like the Hattons ones, they're generic and have been re-skinned (is that the correct terminology) into L&Y colours.

[Annie]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Your L&Y carriages look very much like the forthcoming Hattons ones. I suppose that's because, like the Hattons ones, they're generic and have been re-skinned (is that the correct terminology) into L&Y colours.

Yes exactly that Stephen.  The original coaches were a series of LNWR coaches made by Ken Green using a mesh library that he'd built up for making pre-grouping coaches.  Ken made a sizeable series of LNWR, Midland and Caley coaches in pre-grouping and post-grouping condition before retiring from building coaches when the more demanding modelling specs for Trainz TS2019 made it too difficult for him to continue.

Rob Dee whom I recently conspired with to create a completely new series of GER 6 wheel coaches and TPO vans reskinned some of Ken's coaches, with permission, to create GCR, Cambrian, Furness, L&Y and GER coaches very much in the generic coach tradition, but due to Rob's careful texture work entirely plausible looking.

 

It's only now that Cameron Scott has released his new L&Y goods wagons and locomotives (he's done a Class 27 as well) that I started to think about a L&Y presence on my layout and went searching for Rob's L&Y coaches.

 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Annie said:

Yes exactly that Stephen.  The original coaches were a series of LNWR coaches

 

Yes, the underframe and roof of that full brake are saying LNWR D385 to me!

[Annie]

Broad Gauge cheer up picture:  South Devon Railway's 'Owl'.  Built by Avonside February 1873.  Purchased to work at the Plymouth Docks which it did until 1892. In August 1893 'Owl' was converted to the standard gauge.   'Owl' had only a 6.7 square foot grate and a 150 Imperial gallon water tank so it wasn't a very big locomotive at all.

 

[MikeOxon]

I photographed a model of 'Owl' at the Abingdon Model Railway Show in 2016.  It was on the 7mm scale layout of Bristol Goods Shed by Peter Boyce of the Broad Gauge Society.