Long Marton, S&C

[peach james]

ah, so, what was today? That's right, 11th. Cold, rainy...check. Normal weather for sailors & ducks...

 

after coming home, fired up the dcc on Long Marton, took the first local and gave it a bit of a run- both up and down. After cooking up dinner & getting little helpers off to bed, I came back down and tried to go back to where I was 3 months ago, and as usual, ended up with trains strewn all around the place and not where the computer thought they were at all. I guess that means tomorrow I have to sort out the mess and correct a few things. (at the end, I hand pushed the brit & passenger train back from the chimney, I had a wood fire going for ~4 hrs or so, as it's 2C or so outside)

 

Known issues:

Renumber Black 5's to be on same address

Renumber 28's to be on same address

Flash Dominion of Canada & see if that fixes it

Put trains back to start positions

remove 3rd local train to stop confusing the @!#! computer

Work on signals, ensure new (June) signals are operating correctly

 

(lego also got a bit done, it still isn't up to being run yet, needs more work on the middle & upper circuits (including the bridge above).

 

James

[peach james]

DSC_0060 by Peach James, on Flickr

 

That's a 16 tonner on top of the container...the bridge is 140" between supports, and will support a load of 3 kg distributed. Test running with a battery operated loco- the wiring still needs doing to be able to run LDCC across it.

 

!@!!!#@$ lots of work to make that bridge, it's version 4 or so. I am kind of curious as to what will happen to the lego beams over time, as there is a fair amount of distortion/force on them. Somewhat over 8x the distance in beams is used building this style of bridge.

 

James

[Physicsman]

Hi James,

 

You're approaching your Lego project like an engineer! I wonder if the Lego struts will gradually deform if left under a permanent, reasonable load? Is the whole thing just "clicked" together using the standard Lego "bond", or have you used an adhesives as well?

 

Be careful to avoid any more locos crashing to the floor. I felt sorry for the driver in the last crash!

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[peach james]

Renumber Black 5's to be on same address-- done

Renumber 28's to be on same address -- done

Flash Dominion of Canada & see if that fixes it -- it did !

Put trains back to start positions -- currently correct to computer

remove 3rd local train to stop confusing the @!#! computer -- finally removed 3rd local, now only 2 in system right now

Work on signals, ensure new (June) signals are operating correctly -- awaiting. printed out paper to see if I have them right for now.

 

I had power on last night, and I will possibly try again tonight. The Class 5's ran through 2 times, and then parked in the storage yard. Next, will be running trains through Long Marton.

 

James

[peach james]

Hi James,

 

You're approaching your Lego project like an engineer! I wonder if the Lego struts will gradually deform if left under a permanent, reasonable load? Is the whole thing just "clicked" together using the standard Lego "bond", or have you used an adhesives as well?

 

Be careful to avoid any more locos crashing to the floor. I felt sorry for the driver in the last crash!

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

 

It's all done just with lego, a bunch of it is pinned using Technic axles, and the beams are held together with 1x8 plates top & bottom. No glue at all in the bridge- I have a very few pieces which are glued, mostly used in turnout operators. (and track, a bunch of the track has been cut to form 1/2 and 1/4 straights, but that's a bit different...).

 

The train crash is quite similar to one I had years and years ago on Long Marton 2.0, when I backed a train through a turnout set the wrong way. I seem to think at least one wagon came to grief permanently.

 

James

[peach james]

Ah, power on Long Marton, box manned and sort of operational. Figured out why one pair of signals wouldn't work- turns out I had unplugged a mains powered transformer at some point, and not plugged it back in (at either end...120ac or 12vdc). 4/6 signals now working correctly. I thought about working on replacing the other 2 with the servo operated ones, then played trains instead.

 

I had to lift the lever frame up and reconnect a wire to get 8 of the 24 levers to connect electrically. Another little bit of work to do, now done.

 

Difficulties: I have a wood fire going, so the 2.5 year old has to stay away from the wood stove. And the 7 year old wanted to run lego trains. (which he did). So, there was 3 bridges in the way of getting around vice 2. That's the price of having assistants though !

 

Anyway, the 9F looks good trundling through with 36 on behind,

 

James

[Physicsman]

Only 36 behind the 9F. Must do better! Lol.

 

I just hope you don't have a bridge collapse as that passes over. Glad you aren't using much/any glue - it would take away the "Lego-ness" of the thing!

 

Btw, I'm sure the "assistants" will be so corrupted they'll grow up to be great lovers of engineering!

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[peach james]

I got a bit more testing done last night, after the assistants had gone to bed. I ran through a couple of trains, then put the empty/fill storage switch to empty, and it mostly worked. I still have errors in the RR&Co program, found and fixed a couple of them. I am aware of a few more- the storage yard needs me to hand ID which sections are which again, because it isn't quite acting how I want it to with regards to braking trains & stopping them at the right spot. I think there are a couple of other mistakes in the staging yard too- they are fairly high on my priority to get them done so that it works right.

 

James

[Physicsman]

I got a bit more testing done last night, after the assistants had gone to bed. I ran through a couple of trains, then put the empty/fill storage switch to empty, and it mostly worked. I still have errors in the RR&Co program, found and fixed a couple of them. I am aware of a few more- the storage yard needs me to hand ID which sections are which again, because it isn't quite acting how I want it to with regards to braking trains & stopping them at the right spot. I think there are a couple of other mistakes in the staging yard too- they are fairly high on my priority to get them done so that it works right.

 

James

 

I think you enjoy all the error-tracing, really! James, what are you going to do when the whole system works without a glitch? Then you'll be bored and think of something else that'll raise some "red flags". I do admire your determination, though. I'm keeping my efforts to a much simpler level of control for the moment.

 

Jeff

[peach james]

Oh, there is a LOT to do to get the programming to where I want it to finally be. The goal is to be able to be like Beast or uxe6, and be the signalbox bloke, rather than be the engine driver. I have had bits of the whole lot working, but not all of it together at all. Perhaps in an hour, I will get to go and work on the current crop of issues, then it will be on to the next set after that...

 

I do it as a merry relaxation from teaching- currently teaching a crowd of Officer of the Day candidates what to do when the ship catches fire, or tries to sink. It's practical physics, if you allow the whole lot to get hot, you get horribly uncomfortable, and if you put too much water in the wrong place, then it tips over ! (good thing our ship is in a building, and not floating on anything less viscous than rock !). I enjoy teaching, really enjoyed teaching certificate 2A stuff when I was doing that, and expect that I am going to enjoy teaching 3A stuff. It's probably more like mentoring than traditional teaching, as my "students" tend to be fairly well motivated individuals.

 

http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/daily-planet/october-2012/daily-planet---october-17-2012/#clip787159

 

 

 

I'll probably post again later- either here or in your thread Jeff,

 

James

[peach james]

2 more hours successfully wasted spent on trying to get Auto to work right. I ended up with 3 trains jamming each other in, which is fine...it does prove some of the features of the system work. Next bit: try again in the morning, after the last few little changes.

 

I had about 1/3rd of the sections in the storage yard mis identified in the computer...I'm, quite frankly, amazed that it worked at all with what I had done. I also labled 3 more sections in the staging yard, which had been ID"d at least once before, but somewhere got stripped off. (I also found a mis-id'd one in the staging yard...only 2 digits off where it was supposed to be !).

 

anyway, at the end I only had to move one train back by manual control...I'll try again at 0545 before I go to work, to see if I have cured the annoying train not filling storage when I want it to glitch...

 

James

[peach james]

ah, the fun of auto continues- I managed to end up with a very dirty wheeled WD stuck at about 2/3rds the way back to the staging yard, after 25 min of trying to get it to run.

 

I need to draw up a formal how to for starting too- if I am not careful, I end up with all kinds of hijinx to sort out before the trains will go.

 

James

[peach james]

Auto this...

 

DSC_0040 by Peach James, on Flickr

 

but, it can look more like...

 

 

DSC_0029 by Peach James, on Flickr

 

James

[peach james]

ah...now we are starting to get to the automation bits.  Spent last night dividing the program into 2- one for functional (IE, normal person) running, and a 2nd one which is the signalbox version.

 

I started by rebuilding one of the two commutator boxes to use a DS 64 (my last spare) instead of the DS 54 which it had before.  I've given up on the 54's, as I find them !@#$! near impossible to program.  I will keep the ones I have, as they are the only true static output devices I have and I may well need them somewhere for lighting uses, but...they are supremely aggrovating to program, requiring more skill than I have to regularly program them !  (and I am a controls tech !!!)

 

Next step will be, I think, to order some stuff from TTX in order to come up with the 2nd commutator box.  I've considered an alternative, but think that the way I am doing this should work.  The bell is wired onto a stall output on the DS 64, but because the coil on it is high enough resistance, I'm not too concerned.  I set the timeout for 16 seconds, & that's about it.  The only other way I can see is to use a DS 52 to drive the bell (& the lock on the commutator) and the DS 64 to drive the motors for the position indicator on the commutator.  (as well as the inputs, as there are 4 inputs used each as well)

 

We will see as to when I will manage to do that- there's a list of stuff I'd like from Tony's, but $ is a factor. 

 

Anyway, I will see how far I get on this over the next week or so- I will post a video once I get somewhere with the signalbox program...perhaps by new years.

 

James

[peach james]

Hi All the infinite wisdom of RM Web,

 

I've watched the video ( http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65635-br-signalling-practice-video/ )

 

and read a fair amount, but I want to make sure that what I am planning to do would comply with the rules.

 

What I am looking to do is to make a sensible simulation of signal operation. I'm not going to be filling in logs, but the rest should be right.

 

The following is a crude sketch of what I have, physically, on Long Marton, looking at it as a single track only going to the left.

 

crude signalboxes by Peach James, on Flickr

 

 

 

So, what I am expecting happens is:

 

Train enters New Biggin station (starts from the storage yard),

 

Signalman Turing sends Call Attention (1 beat) to Signalman Powell at Long Marton. Powell responds with 1 beat (acknowledging call attention). Signalman Turing then sends the type of train (for instance, a DMU with 3-1-3), which Powell then repeats back. (3-1-3) Powell, then turns his Commutator to Line Clear, which will allow the section signal (in front of the New Biggin box) to be cleared. The train then passes the section signal at New Biggin, Signalman Turing then sends “Train entering section” to Powell, who then turns the commutator to “Train On Line”.   The detection locks the commutator at Train On Line when the train passes the Long Marton Distant. (to bypass is the 60 turns or so of the key lock, in the event of an emergency...so you have to KNOW you have turned it...)

 

Powell, then, will clear his home signal, and send call attention  (1) to Signalman Bobby at Appleby. Then, when call attention (1) is acknowledged, he will then signal the type of train on, (3-1-3) and listen for the repeat back (3-1-3). The repeat back should be followed by the commutator for the “down” line being moved to Line Clear (assuming it was at Normal before). The line clear would clear Powell's Section signal (for Powell to operate), and then he can clear his distant as well. The train would not have to slow as long as Powell was fast enough to get the acceptance from Bobby & clear his distant between when he accepted the train from Turing to when the train reaches his distant. (~5000 yds or so, or about 2.5 min @ 60 MPH)

 

The train arrives in front of the Long Marton box, Powell pulling his signals to caution (distant) /stop (home) /stop(Station), moving them after the train has passed the signal. and will send “Train entering Section” to Bobby when the train passes his section signal, who will move his commutator to “train on line” When train on line is set by Bobby, Powell will then be free to clear his commutator to Turning back to Normal. (locked until then)

 

 

At the end of this, Powell will have his commutator set to Normal to New Biggin, and all his signals will be at danger.

 

Am I missing anything?  Or clear as mud?

 

I'm suspecting I have some mechanical alterations to make to my signalbox- I think I need two electric locks put on the tappets (not a great shock) for the two section signals, in order to operate correctly.  It's the fun of creating what was (prior to 1970, or ~6 years before I was born).

 

If anyone has photos of the inside of Long Marton box, I would be greatful of them...

 

James

[beast66606]

Some points from your text, I have given general comments, some answers could be far more in depth, but for now I've kept it at a high level.

 

The signalmen will, unless there is a good reason not to (a level crossing with the signals interlocked where the signalman may wait for an annunciator (buzzer) to sound before offering forward for example) offer forward to the next box as soon as train entering section is received from the box in rear.

 

Unless the prototype had a berth (one on the approach side) track circuit at the first stop signal the blocks would not be held at train on line, if you want to hold them it might as well be as soon as train entering section is acknowledged and the needle turned.

 

Powell should not clear his home signal unless he is clearing all his signals or the train is visibly under control - i.e. getting ready to stop as it is unable to proceed to Appleby, another train in the section for example.  It would not be cleared as you describe.

 

The distant would be less than a mile away, I've pulled some at 1140yds which is (very) roughly 3/4 mile.

 

The signals would be returned in the order distant, home and starter, the distant when the train comes near to the home, the home after the train has passed it and the same for the starter. The needle (block) would be dropped to normal and train out of section sent only when the rear of the train was 440yds in front of the home signal (the acceptance point)

 

hth

[peach james]

Signalman Turing sends Call Attention (1 beat) to Signalman Powell at Long Marton. Powell responds with 1 beat (acknowledging call attention). Signalman Turing then sends the type of train (for instance, a DMU with 3-1-3), which Powell then repeats back. Powell, then turns his Commutator to Line Clear, which will allow the section signal (in front of the New Biggin box) to be cleared.

 

Powell will send call attention to Signalman Bobby at Appleby. Then, when call attention is acknowledged, he will then signal the type of train on, and listen for the repeat back. The repeat back should be followed by the commutator for the “down” line being moved to Line Clear assuming Appleby can accept the train.  When the "Line Clear" is set on the communtator, Powell can set his Section Signal to Clear.  (otherwise, his Section Signal is locked at Danger)

 

 

The train then passes the signalbox at New Biggin, Signalman Turing then sends “Train entering section” when the tail light of the train passes his section signal to Powell, who then turns the commutator to “Train On Line”

 

Powell, then, will clear his home signal, his Section signal, and then he can clear his distant as well. If Appleby cannot accept the train, then the Section and Distant will be left ON, stopping the train at the section signal.

 

 

The train would not have to slow as long as Powell was fast enough to get the acceptance from Bobby & clear his distant between when he accepted the train from Turing to when the train reaches his distant.

 

(Dave, this is where the 5000 yds comes from- from New Biggin to Long Marton is 3 miles 726 yds, and the distant is 1150 yds from the box, according to Stations & Structures of the S&C...meaning about 2 1/2 minutes pass from the train passing New Biggin Section signal (327 yds from the box towards Long Marton) and arriving at the Long Marton distant) I do NOT have this distance on the layout...which is going to create fun and games of getting trains to 60-70 scale MPH in 12 ft or so...)

 

The train arrives at the Long Marton Home signal, at which point Powell returns the Distant to caution (as the locomotive has passed the Distant)

 

Once the locomotive has passed the Home signal, Powell returns the Home to Danger. When the train passes the section signal (590 yds past the home), he sets the Section signal back to Danger, and can clear his Commutator to Normal and accept another train. (Commutator is released by the track circuit which ends at the Section signal), and will send “Train entering Section” to Bobby, who will move his commutator to “train on line”

 

At the end of this, Powell will have his commutator set to Normal, and his signals will be at Caution/Danger/Danger.  All of this is going to happen over about a 5 minute spell if the train is at 60 MPH.

 

Dave, is that closer to reality?

 

(I'm glad for your input...)

[beast66606]

Train entering section was generally given as the train passed the box rather than the section signal (in my experience anyway, although it was Merseyside / North Wales area I was involved with), I'm pretty sure it would be earlier than the whole train passing the starter as that then cuts down on the time the next box has to deal with it.

 

You've misunderstood (I think) what happens if Appleby cannot accept the train, in this case all signals will remain at danger (distant at caution) until the train is seen to be under control, when the home signal can be cleared and the train will "trickle down" to the starter to await acceptance, if the train is short  (less than roughly 120 yds in length) then a second train can actually be accepted from the box in rear as there will be 440yds clear in front of the home but probably best not to worry about this.

 

At 60 mph, the time taken for the train to cover 5000yds is more than enough for a good bobby to get acceptance and pull off (assuming no trains in the way of course).

 

It's looking good ..

[peach james]

More bits ordered- and a general tidy up of the signal box instruments has ensued. Unfortunately, the Lego bits are now not going to be lego, but rather servo controlled bits, when the next stuff from Tam Valley arrive here.  I'm not sure if I am going to try and get the system to work via a bunch of abuse of other stuff, or if I am just going to give up until the new bits arrive.  I have a DS 64 with only 7 working inputs, and that's the one I am trying to use- for 8 inputs...(one of them is on order too...).  Delivery over here is 8-10 days, not return of post.

 

RRCoCommutatorDec2012 by Peach James, on Flickr

 

(it's since been mirrored, to reverse the relative positions of the boxes, since they sit the other way around on the layout).  The flagged line on the bottom is supposed to work, but I need the instruments to be able to make it work)

 

James

[peach james]

Late night fun (20-2330 hrs), has consisted of running a DMU on the above schedule, after temp. wiring in one key onto a spare input elsewhere, and then figuring out that the one set of "that won't move" things has- apparently, my 2.75 year old monster helper managed to break some 5 min epoxy that was supposed to hold a screw fixed to a block of wood.  Said block of wood operates 3 microswitches, and I was kind of curious as to how come they weren't operating when I thought they should...

 

I got as far as having the DMU leave New Biggin, and get to the home signal, at which point it all fell apart- I know why now, and hopefully, the fix will work.  (basically, Appleby was not clearable until after the DMU passed the home signal...which it wouldn't because the signal was at danger...it proved a bit of the other work right though !)

 

I'm not likely to get to try it tomorrow until later, as I have a cake to make, and then we (all 4 of us) are going out to my lego club's family xmas gathering at another members house.  (it may be an Adult club, but we have a large amount of children between the active members...)

 

I'll be happier when I have fitted up the new Tam Valley 3 position servo drivers and the mechanical interlocking locks, but I will get there eventually.  This beats the original plan of using mechanical linked levers and electric locking for all of them !  (yes, I did consider it...at least it wasn't going to be air operated !)

 

James

[peach james]

Well, after a nice lego related party yesterday, today I've been back at the fun of getting this to work.  I had to add an additional section in the program, which is tied to the home signal (and the other one is tied to the section signal).  Then, my small assistant and I have been running the DMU's through- 3-1-3, repeatedly.  The only problem I have had is that my assistant can reach the telegraph key and has keyed it a few times .  That, and Signalman Babbage is _very_ fast at returning the keypress in New Biggin- so fast, it's instant !.  (since sorted, with a bit more delay put in place).  It's amazing how fast it seems to be with "only" 15 seconds set right now of a delay between when the train passes New Biggin box (line clear sent to New Biggin) and when the train arrives at the distant for Long Marton.  I may set that delay a bit longer to allow for inexperience too- I don't find it bad, but I could see it being fast.  Again, as explained in real life, the signalman had something like 2.5 min at line speed to get it all done, but that just doesn't exist on my model. 

[peach james]

DMU & Long Goods now working OK, I am now kind of unsure what to do to get some indicators as to how many bells have rung...hmm, may have to do some research as to ways forward from here.

[Physicsman]

Morning James. I guess you've reached the witching hour by now in far-off Canada - so all the best for 2013!

 

I hope you've got your signalling sorted. Must admit that it's one area in which I have a very superficial knowledge - I need to learn more during the coming year.

 

Sounds like you and the "helpers" are still having fun! Long (Marton) may it continue! (sorry,   ).

 

Jeff

[peach james]

Thanks Jeff,

 

My helpers are great- at least most of the time.    Children, the're your parents best revenge...

 

mind, neither one has yet:

 

1. exploded the deep freeze by turning the light on & off enough times to combust it

2. Stuffed a screwdriver into mum's sewing machine motor (in the UK...none of this wimpy 110v stuff)

3. Boiled at least one boiler dry

4. Frozen a boiler

5. Gone for a walk on a railing.  On a ferry boat.  While it was icebreaking

 

I played around with a pair of DS44's to make a crude counter, but it is too crude to work, as rather than having 3 states, (Left/Off/Right) the DS44 outputs are Left/Right only, which took me from 8 bits to 4 bits each...and from an easy way to get 8 lights/each down to 4.  Since I only have 3 DS44's sitting around doing nothing, that kind of limited my options.  Next:  Different Way Forward, involving a homebuilt DCC function decoder and a 7 segment display, x6.  (there goes another $200 on bits for DCC...).  All this is because although I can understand what the bells are saying, I suspect that any guests will NOT be able to read them back without them being quite slow.  (like 5-10 seconds to get a message).  I don't know Morse, strangely, even though I do have a radio licence (VE7LGO). 

 

James

[peach james]

OK, so where are we now?  Some stuff arrived over the last few days, from Tam Valley (3 way servo drivers) and Digi-Key (LED's and terminal strips).

 

The Tam Valley stuff is now mostly installed- 2 of 3 3 way servo drivers now installed, one in the New Biggin instrument case, and one in the lever frame box.  The New Biggin case one allows to lock the train on line commutator, and (the reason it is 3 way) it drives the from NB commutator arm.  The one used in the lever frame is to lock the two section signals.  For "all mechanical" interlocking, there is quite an amount of electric involved in real life.  I can see how in full size it would work for interlocking like what I have done though, as it makes lots of sense.  (Solenoid above the locking bar, so that it is "on" to clear the interlocking, any failure would then allow gravity to drive the pin into the bar and lock it...)

 

The 3rd Tam Valley servo driver will be used when it arrives to replace 2 torti driven signals (distant and section) on the far side of Trout Beck viaduct.  There was a slight issue with my order from Tam Valley, and I only got 2 of 3 drivers in this mailing. 

 

Why 3 way servo drivers?  Because, they allow for bounce !  These are one of the few ready to use electronic controllers which I know about which do a bounce function. 

 

Also, a parcel from Cpl (ex PO2) Hotel arrived here- yep, more lego for me to build.  I did some more on the next raising bridge, the towers are about 3 ft tall each, and really only require me to do a test build with track and a lifting mechanism.  We also took apart the christmas tree at the Emperess hotel downtown that Atrum coal sponsered.  (a lego christmas tree, with the funds raised going to BC Childrens Hospital).  I've been following Jeff's writings too...which takes quite a bit of time to keep up with !

 

Off now to work on house related wiring...for the generator, when the power goes out,

 

James