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Regency Rails - Georgian, Williamine & Early Victorian Railways

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Compound of this parish suggested that we had a dedicated topic for Georgian Railways.  For my part, I have no issue with the discussion continuing in the School Project - Victorian Railways topic, as some of it doubtless will, but it may be more orderly and accessible if the period had its own home, so here we are.

 

So far, in the original topic, we have discussed matters with the Stockton and Darlington as a starting point, because that is what the school project chiefly concerns, and because the project may spawn, thanks to Sem's skill and good offices, a 3D-printed kit of a Hackworth twin-tender mineral engine, which would be a glorious first for the hobby. Huzzah!

 

So far we have looked at early coaches, the early "coaching" engines, and the development of the 0-6-0 goods engine, and nodded to colliery lines, not to mention Brunton's steam horse, which already has its own topic.

 

When I have time, I'll repost/summarise some of the content of the School Project topic so that the discussion can carry on here, but anything in the, say, c.1780-1850 (which is a suggestion and are not intended to be prescriptive parameters, the period should, I imagine, remain fluid, with reference later periods where necessary in any case) can now find a home here without the risk of being 'off-topic' (something which, I must say, has never really bothered me).

 

In the meanwhile, Derwent:

 

 

 

 

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Edited by Edwardian
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Well, I'll ask now!

 

Do you want my early railway 3D Printing endeavours to be here? If not I can keep them on my thread.

 

Also, are we restricted to only steam locomotives? Are stationary steam engines and other sources of propulsion permitted? I think perhaps some of the very earliest railways could perhaps be discussed... pre-grouping covers a period of roughly 4, 539, 999, 905 years! I read a very interesting article on Roman and Greek railways not so long ago, probably linked to by Kevin (wouldn't surprise me!) in another thread.

 

I can forsee this becoming a very interesting thread! 

 

Finally, can we discuss fictional ancient railways?! :jester:

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Well, I'll ask now!

 

Do you want my early railway 3D Printing endeavours to be here? If not I can keep them on my thread.

 

Also, are we restricted to only steam locomotives? Are stationary steam engines and other sources of propulsion permitted? I think perhaps some of the very earliest railways could perhaps be discussed... pre-grouping covers a period of roughly 4, 539, 999, 905 years! I read a very interesting article on Roman and Greek railways not so long ago, probably linked to by Kevin (wouldn't surprise me!) in another thread.

 

I can forsee this becoming a very interesting thread! 

 

Finally, can we discuss fictional ancient railways?!

 

 

We can post all or anything here, so far as I am concerned.

 

For me it means some duplication of posts, as there will be some early S&D stuff from the school project that would need to be posted there but that might also be relevant here.

 

The same goes for you with 3D prints.  I would not confine yourself to this topic for your early stuff, but I would encourage you to cross post it here, so anyone whose primary interest is this thread topic can come to it directly.

 

One useful thing would be a summary of what's available to modellers, e.g. there are kits of Chaldron wagons from 2 manufacturers in 4mm, Ambis etched fishbelly rails, 5&9 doing Craven stock in 4mm, SER Kits doing early stuff in 7mm, Broad Gauge Soc. kits, Bachmann RTR HO locos etc, etc.

 

Perhaps such fictional railways deserve their own space?  Someone did make a layout of the Forest of Boland, IIRC.  I have long felt the need for a dedicated fantasy railway topic, which could cover everything from Tolkien-inspired railways (of which one parishioner has made a stunning example) and the Ankh-Morpork & Sto Plains Hygenic Railway, to Rowland Emett (commercially supported by Smallbrook Studios) and out into the world of Steampunk, there is even an HP Lovecraft inspired American layout.

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How Georgian ?

 

If you are going back to 1780 , you might just as well go back to 1714. A horse is a horse is a horse... I can't see why - for example - the Middleton Railway (opening in 1758) would qualify in 1781 but not in 1761

 

The earliest known railway seems to be this in Nottinghamshire, dating from 1603:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wollaton_Wagonway

https://nottinghamhiddenhistoryteam.wordpress.com/2013/07/30/huntingdon-beaumonts-wollaton-to-strelley-waggonway/

http://www.island-publishing.co.uk/WRC_mirror/woll_wag_leaflet_a4.pdf

 

The technology seems to have spread in the North East from the Restoration - I'm not sure if there are any confirmed examples of wagonways in the North East prior to 1660

 

Admittedly wooden horse-drawn wagonways are a different subject from primitive steam, but if you include any part of the 18th century you're including them , and "come one, come all": http://heddonhistory.weebly.com/blog/excavation-of-waggonway-at-walker-newcastle

 

There are two examples of pre-steam wagonways which still have rails laid on part of their course - the Surrey Iron Railway (parts of which are now followed by Croydon Tramlink) and the Tanfield Railway

 

 

But this is definitely on topic: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/296/entry-20605-at-the-dawn-of-time-chapter-the-first/

 

 

My instinct that fictional/fantasy railways are a very different subject. The Miskatonic RR is here http://www.ottgalleries.com/MRR.html

Edited by Ravenser
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One useful thing would be a summary of what's available to modellers, e.g. there are kits of Chaldron wagons from 2 manufacturers in 4mm, Ambis etched fishbelly rails, 5&9 doing Craven stock in 4mm, SER Kits doing early stuff in 7mm, Broad Gauge Soc. kits, Bachmann RTR HO locos etc, etc.

 

EB Models make some early LBSCR loco kits in both 4mm and 7mm http://www.mjwsjw.co.uk/

 

Gary

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How Georgian ?

 

If you are going back to 1780 , you might just as well go back to 1714. A horse is a horse is a horse... I can't see why - for example - the Middleton Railway (opening in 1758) would qualify in 1781 but not in 1761

 

The earliest known railway seems to be this in Nottinghamshire, dating from 1603:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wollaton_Wagonway

https://nottinghamhiddenhistoryteam.wordpress.com/2013/07/30/huntingdon-beaumonts-wollaton-to-strelley-waggonway/

http://www.island-publishing.co.uk/WRC_mirror/woll_wag_leaflet_a4.pdf

 

The technology seems to have spread in the North East from the Restoration - I'm not sure if there are any confirmed examples of wagonways in the North East prior to 1660

 

Admittedly wooden horse-drawn wagonways are a different subject from primitive steam, but if you include any part of the 18th century you're including them , and "come one, come all": http://heddonhistory.weebly.com/blog/excavation-of-waggonway-at-walker-newcastle

 

There are two examples of pre-steam wagonways which still have rails laid on part of their course - the Surrey Iron Railway (parts of which are now followed by Croydon Tramlink) and the Tanfield Railway

 

 

But this is definitely on topic: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/296/entry-20605-at-the-dawn-of-time-chapter-the-first/

 

Full Georgian and pre-Georgian is fine by me, and squarely on-topic, I'd say, and, so ....

 

We are back to my daughter's school project, with 2 pages from her draft Powerpoint presentation ....

 

And to the North East ....

 

And to the Causey Arch, Tanfield:

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This contains hundreds of layout ideas, based around lines that stretch back further in time than 1603.

 

You can, according to abe books buy a new copy for £383, or a decent secondhand one for about £30.

 

There is another book, very recently published, which is interesting in the context of this thread because it outlines how, having nailed railway technology in the 1830s and 1840s, Britain did very nicely thank you by exporting it all over the world.

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Edited by Nearholmer
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Bibliophiles might also want to try online sources for contemporary material.

 

This is interesting, for instance https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiuo.ark:/13960/t88h4v358;view=2up;seq=1;skin=mobile

 

A lot has now been digitised, but it still isn't easy to find particular things ........ it's as bad/good as wading through those online copies of The Engineer ........ distractions at every turn of a page!

 

And, here is Wood, the best contemporary digest of early locomotive practise https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015074633572;view=2up;seq=25;skin=mobile

 

Woods is largely technical, but there is another book with a similar title by Grahame, at a similar date, which covers the important topic of how to make money out of railways, or possibly how to lose money by investing in one.

Edited by Nearholmer
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WOW!

 

I need to read that later!

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Hmmm...

 

Of course, as followers of the 'Virtual Pre-Grouping' topic will know, it is very easy to make plateways and wagonways in Trainz...

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Speaking of plateways, heres 'St David' from the Tredegar Ironworks, built 1831, a scale drawing does exist of this one

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Speaking of plateways, heres 'St David' from the Tredegar Ironworks, built 1831, a scale drawing does exist of this one

 

Wonderful!

 

And instructive to see the similarities and differences with contemporary Hackworth designs.

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Heres a pair of interesting Hackworth designs, which involved layshaft drive, the 'Wilberforce' and 'Majestic' classes, the principal difference seems to be whether or not the chimney and cylinders are at the same end, I beleive I saw a letter to railway modeller several years ago which included a photo of 'Wilberforce'in 00 gauge

 

Edit: here are said models, by Mr Brian Smith who writes;

"In the first photograph, Stockton and Darlington No. 23 Wilberforce of 1831 is seen with some chauldron wagons. It was built mainly of polystyrene with a brass chimney, dome and cylinders. It has a small flat can motor and 80:1 gearbox. The loco will haul over fifteen 4-wheel wagons.

The next view is of a London and Birmingham 2-2-0 of 1838. This is a Bury design and is powered by a rewheeled Bachmann cable tram mechanism in the tender. The model was nainly built from styrene, as was the carriage truck, which has a langley Brougham on board. The loco normally pulls six or seven 4-wheel coaches.

Finally there is a South Eastern Railway Crampton design (2+2)-2-0 built by Robert Stephenson in 1848. The loco is mainly built from brass and has a K's motor in the smokebox driving the central crankshaft which in turn powers the single drivers. The loco is reasonably powerful for a single and will pull up to twelve 4-wheel coaches

All the above locomotives have rigid chassis and will operate happily on my minimum 24" radius curves."

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Edited by Killian keane
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Brilliant models, Killian, and thanks for the additional notes.  An inspiration to us all! 

 

Before the 0-6-0s were the 0-4-0s, which are reminiscent of the 'Puffing Billy' colliery types.

 

After Stockton & Darlington No.1, which may or may not have been called Locomotion at the time(!), came Nos. 2-4, which were generally similar to one another. These were all 0-4-0s and designed for mineral haulage:

 

No.1 Locomotion, 1825

 

No.2 Hope, 1825

 

No.3 Black Diamond, 1826

 

No.4 Diligence, 1825

 

 

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Having been guilty of introducing an Edwardian electric locomotive, can I make amends by offering an early Victorian one?

 

A couple of pages from Practical Mechanics and Engineers Magazine of November 1842, discussing Robert Davidson’s locomotive. It was the first (modestly) full-sized electric locomotive, as opposed to table-top demonstrator. He built and exhibited what is thought to have been a narrow-gauge successor, which gave rides round the ‘Egyptian Hall’ in London.

 

A member of the IEE built a largish working model of the loco shown in the magazine about 25 years ago, possibly for the 150th anniversary, which I think is held in the IEE collection.

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Random useless early railway fact: The Army positioned their artillery along a waggonway at the Battle of Prestonpans during the Jacobite uprising. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranent_to_Cockenzie_Waggonway

This was the one to which I was referring in post #8.  I got the date wrong, though, it was 1722, not 1772.   Some of the artillery were moved on the waggonway, making it the first military use of a railway.

 

Jim

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In 4mm ...

 

No.2, Hope

 

No.3 Black Diamond crossing Skerne bridge

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Compound of this parish suggested that we had a dedicated topic for Georgian Railways.  

 

Oh dear what have I let loose now... Is clarification required? We are discussing Bachmann Era -5 here, not:

1. the railway network connecting the eastern coast of the Black Sea to the Caucasian hinterland;

2. the railways of the unified German Empire (1870-1918); nor

3. the Irish gauge railway network centred on Melbourne, Australia;

although coincidentally Lord Melbourne is pertinent, as Prime Minister at the time of Victoria's accession.

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Heres a few more S&DR locos I've unearthed

'Queen' no.29, 'Raby Castle' no.30 and 'Swift' no. 27

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Edited by Killian keane
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This contains hundreds of layout ideas, based around lines that stretch back further in time than 1603.

 

... but railways or waggonways before 1715 (Bachmann era -6) are out of court. A thread on Stuart and even Elizabethan waggonways, please.

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Heres a few more S&DR locos I've unearthed

'Queen' 'Raby Castle' and 'Swift'

 

Raby Castle looks to be really a rather conventional modern locomotive.

Edited by Compound2632
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