Brixton Hill tram depot and its Trams

[thirty2a]

No I will have a look

[thirty2a]

Good to know a few of us are keeping the trams alive in the capital 

[coline33]

21 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Have you seen Bermondsey (Canal Road). Under 'Layout Topics.'

Lots of local interest.

 

Ray

Thanks, Ray, as you will see I have reacted and left the link to this thread.   Colin.

[coline33]

"Lost Voices of the London Trams" is a book for which I could not give a good review,   As usual with this author there are howlers and even the references to me and John Gent were not joined up for which the author could have given the full historical background to how Croydon Tramlink and the DLR came to see the light of day between 1949 and 1990.   If my 1990 requirement for the San Francisco Auto Control be fitted on approach to Sandilands Junction from the tunnel had been put in then six people would not have died and some 50 would not have been injured.   Despite all that has been done with signage since, the risk has not been removed.   Whilst signage has also been put up at the Lloyd Park bend, it has not on the approach to the Addington Park bend.   The risk is still high on the outbound tracks at both these bends as it still is on the inbound track at Sandilands Jnc.

[coline33]

On 14/04/2020 at 10:16, thirty2a said:

Looking forward to east quay update Colin …

Seriously, I think my "East Quay" 009 is o/t here but thanks for the thought.   Colin.

[thirty2a]

Yes you will need a new thread for that one Colin! You have some valid points re the book and some chapters did waffle on a tad. That all said there are some good pics especially in the depot section re the  traverser ...

I have over 50 books now so think I have a balanced library re London’s trams, a few Middleton press ones still to collect mostly of north London ..

[thirty2a]

Rails mostly down now, thinking about how the hell im going to build the traverser ..

[coline33]

Have you trawled through RMweb and Google on model traverser articles?

[thirty2a]

No but have found plenty of pictures in books and online 

[thirty2a]

Slight tangent alert !

i was thumbing through the volume London tram then and now ( very out of date!) and in the back I found duty card, VCR and running plates for last day of RM operation in London on 159 out of BN, May be of interest. I worked there at that time, it was a crazy day. 

[thirty2a]

Rails down wiring to go but happy enough with progress..

[Spam Can Man]

I used to work for the Molins Machine Company in Deptford up until 1984 and I remember the paint shop in Trundleys Road had tram tracks in it from when it used to be used as a depot for horse drawn trams as one of the old timers who worked there told me. I have since confirmed this by cross referencing this with the Godfrey maps of the area. Sadly, I was a young apprentice at the time, so I may have not taken him seriously at the time and I never took photographs (hindsight is a wonderful thing!). 

I am also old enough to remember (just!) the bridges going over Trundleys Road and Evelyn Street coming from the Deptford Wharf Branch. As Ray quite rightly states, this was going to be a club layout for the fledgling Southwark Model Railway Club when it was formed over 30 years ago! However, the sheer size of it and operational problems made it totally impractical!

I must confess, I am not a tram modeller, but am currently building a Tower tram kit for my private layout based on Lordship Lane in Dulwich (on the Crystal Palace HL branch). I am trying to replicate the well known photograph of the tram passing under the ornate bridge as Ray mentioned earlier. I really don't have a clue on how to realistically replicate the conduit channel between the running rails or where to source transfers for the tram number (35 or 38). Be gentle with me, I am new to this RM website!!

 

All the Best,

Gary

[coline33]

Welcome Gary to the world of tramway modelling and that for London especially.   Yes, both first and second generations can be catered for!!!.   I strongly recommend you go to the Kingsway Models website and see John's Kingsway Subway and Dog Kennel Hill layouts for inspiration and hints.   Do not hesitate to combine the pre and post WW2 eras of LPTB/LTE but you will be limited to Class HR/2 bogie cars with just a few moths in the autumn of 1933 for Class M four wheelers.   The Tower E/1 kits are based on Classes that did not use DKH as they were not fitted with the required screw down track brakes as were Classes HR/1 (one car), HR/2 and M..   But do not despair, John will show you how to turn an E/1 into a reasonable looking HR/2.   The services passing under the Lordship Lane bridge were 56, 58, 60, 62, and 84 and I recommend the KW Trams and Kingsway websites for the transfers.   Conduit track sections are available from the Recreation21 outlet on the Shapeways site but if you want to bury, say Peco Streamline, track in plaster or with balsa wood roadways then cover with printed sections from Street Level and Kingsway.   But first have a good read of how John Howe built his layouts and do not hesitate to revert if you need more answers.

 

Regarding Trundleys Road, I assume you are referring to the LCC's Evelyn Street depot which became redundant when the horse tramway gave way to the electric service 68 and 70 as there was no need to rebuild it for conduit operation as New Cross depot now handled these services.   In 1913 this depot was re-equipped with twin (trolleybus style) wiring for a twin wire trolley/conduit fitted Class M car to be able to shunt the new trailer cars to be hauled on the Deptford services.   Also the LCC could use their petrol-electric trams to shunt the trailers as well as hiring a horse!   With the cessation of trailer operation in 1924 the LCC disposed of the depot.   By that date there were some second series Class E/1 cars fitted for twin overhead working as well as the conduit.   There is a plan of the depot in Robert Harley's "Southwark & Deptford Tramways" in the Middleton Press series.

 

Let us know how you get on and we will see what more we can help on.   All the best, Colin. 

 

 

[thirty2a]

3 hours ago, Spam Can Man said:

I used to work for the Molins Machine Company in Deptford up until 1984 and I remember the paint shop in Trundleys Road had tram tracks in it from when it used to be used as a depot for horse drawn trams as one of the old timers who worked there told me. I have since confirmed this by cross referencing this with the Godfrey maps of the area. Sadly, I was a young apprentice at the time, so I may have not taken him seriously at the time and I never took photographs (hindsight is a wonderful thing!). 

I am also old enough to remember (just!) the bridges going over Trundleys Road and Evelyn Street coming from the Deptford Wharf Branch. As Ray quite rightly states, this was going to be a club layout for the fledgling Southwark Model Railway Club when it was formed over 30 years ago! However, the sheer size of it and operational problems made it totally impractical!

I must confess, I am not a tram modeller, but am currently building a Tower tram kit for my private layout based on Lordship Lane in Dulwich (on the Crystal Palace HL branch). I am trying to replicate the well known photograph of the tram passing under the ornate bridge as Ray mentioned earlier. I really don't have a clue on how to realistically replicate the conduit channel between the running rails or where to source transfers for the tram number (35 or 38). Be gentle with me, I am new to this RM website!!

 

All the Best,

Gary

Welcome Gary, I think Colin has covered the basics I intent to put some conduit on the layout soon which is the paper type Colin mentioned, easy to work with and looks great .. reminds me will need some more soon.

looks like I can use setts inside the depot and onto the traverser so happy days.

enjoy modelling the tram 

tony

[coline33]

An opportunity?   I note there is interest in using RTR four wheel mechs to power plastic and card constructed bogie trams.   Probably the cheapest such mech is by Tenshodo.   Following the demise of ABS Models, I have a need of the white metal adaptor floor for Tenshodo WB26 that ABS introduced for the Anbrico tram kits.   This has a good weight factor and can also be used as the basis of building the 6'6" wheel base London works cars.   Please contact me direct if interested.   Colin.

[Spam Can Man]

Thank you gentlemen for your replies. I got the number of the tram completely wrong! As you stated Colin, it should be 58 and not 38! I would like to point that the lengths of tram track are only 18 inches long so the tram will not be motorised. The station and the railway is really feature. The Tram is only an incidental feature. Nevertheless, I do want to get it right. As regards tram track, I am using the method suggested by Ray that was used on the tramway section of our St Mellion layout and also part of the coalyard on our Crystal Palace High Level. That is using Peco code 75 flexitrack with every 6th sleeper removed and replaced with copperclads. The inner rail, effectively a check rail can then be soldered in place using a pair of track gauges. I prefer using phosphor bronze for these for the colour. The road surface is tarmac, so I can use a filler and not worry about stone setts. On the subject of motors, I have had issues with the Tenshodo bogies in the past with gears splitting on the axles. I used one of these bogies for a SECR railmotor with the wheels replaced spoked wheels of the correct diameter. I used Romford drivers with the centre hole filled in with epoxy and then drilled for an interference fit on a lathe. It ran ok for a while until the gears split. I prefer the more robust Black Beetle ones (I used on to motorise my 1938 tube train but that is another story!) It is a real shame that you cannot get hold of them anymore. 

The trouble with 00 gauge trams is that most of the lower deck is taken up by the motor. I wonder if you could use a proprietary N gauge loco chassis with replacement axles and wheels to 00 gauge? Although that may require a bit of engineering.

 

All the best,

 

Gary 

[wagonbasher]

9 hours ago, thirty2a said:

Rails down wiring to go but happy enough with progress..

Hi Tony, apologies if you have covered this already but I see that you refer  to the model as a diorama,  I presume the trams move as your u are wing up.  If we look at the layout will it be open on one side in the way we can see it in the photos you have posted.  Does the traverser need to work.

 

Andy

[xliverpoollad]

Paul Coles of KW fame  has recently taken over part of the ABS range from Adrian and has  the Tenshodo adapter plate listed.  KW also  has many 4w trucks available (ex BEC designs and others) for about half the price of  a Tenshodo.

 

Steam Era Models Australia, makers of the Black Beetles still have them shown on their web page; Branchlines  used to stock them and maybe still do ......... worth a phone call perhaps ?

 

Just a satisfied customer of all three enterprises !    Hope this helps.

 

Good luck with the traverser.

 

Alan

[thirty2a]

18 hours ago, Spam Can Man said:

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by thirty2a

[thirty2a]

Thanks for the info and encouragement guys.

yes it’s a working diorama and so needs the traverser to work, I have as yet to start it and the wiring is not yet done, honestly though no rush...

I can visualise it just not put knife to balsa as yet ... I am enjoying the whole process and also looking forward to running a few trams, I left an area free of track near the entrance, not sure if road vehicles will park there or start of conversion to bus garage or indeed an office ... but overall it’s coming together slowly 

tony

[coline33]

14 hours ago, Spam Can Man said:

Thank you gentlemen for your replies. I got the number of the tram completely wrong! As you stated Colin, it should be 58 and not 38! I would like to point that the lengths of tram track are only 18 inches long so the tram will not be motorised. The station and the railway is really feature. The Tram is only an incidental feature. Nevertheless, I do want to get it right. As regards tram track, I am using the method suggested by Ray that was used on the tramway section of our St Mellion layout and also part of the coalyard on our Crystal Palace High Level. That is using Peco code 75 flexitrack with every 6th sleeper removed and replaced with copperclads. The inner rail, effectively a check rail can then be soldered in place using a pair of track gauges. I prefer using phosphor bronze for these for the colour. The road surface is tarmac, so I can use a filler and not worry about stone setts. On the subject of motors, I have had issues with the Tenshodo bogies in the past with gears splitting on the axles. I used one of these bogies for a SECR railmotor with the wheels replaced spoked wheels of the correct diameter. I used Romford drivers with the centre hole filled in with epoxy and then drilled for an interference fit on a lathe. It ran ok for a while until the gears split. I prefer the more robust Black Beetle ones (I used on to motorise my 1938 tube train but that is another story!) It is a real shame that you cannot get hold of them anymore. 

The trouble with 00 gauge trams is that most of the lower deck is taken up by the motor. I wonder if you could use a proprietary N gauge loco chassis with replacement axles and wheels to 00 gauge? Although that may require a bit of engineering.

 

All the best,

 

Gary 

No, Gary, the mechs in my cars do not protrude above the lower deck waist panels.   In fact some of my cars have passengers in the lower deck saloon in the manner that other tram modellers have done.   If at any time you think of motorising then have a look at the range offered by KW Trams of the BEC mechs.   Your comments on Tenshodo are well known but I have never experienced them on my non-London trams so fitted.  I would certainly use Black Beetle on EMUs and not Tenshodos.   The hammering my London trams took on the constant scheduled running of "West Croydon" over the 2001-2015 period of exhibiting only resulted in mech problems with the bespoke system used on the Felthams in which the seating of the lower saloon was included!   The BEC mechs have proved very robust ever since we stopped using the K's motors back in the 1960s!   Colin.

[thirty2a]

To be fair the felthams have Bachman mechs under them and work fine. But then i don’t exhibit so they don’t get much ware and Tare on them 

[coline33]

19 hours ago, coline33 said:

An opportunity?   I note there is interest in using RTR four wheel mechs to power plastic and card constructed bogie trams.   Probably the cheapest such mech is by Tenshodo.   Following the demise of ABS Models, I have a need of the white metal adaptor floor for Tenshodo WB26 that ABS introduced for the Anbrico tram kits.   This has a good weight factor and can also be used as the basis of building the 6'6" wheel base London works cars.   Please contact me direct if interested.   Colin.

Yes, Paul has confirmed to me that he has now injected the ABS tram parts into the main stream KW Trams website so can now take direct orders.

[Andy Reichert]

Walthers (USA) made a working complete and expandable traverser system some years back. Occasionally they turn up on Ebay.

 

For a DIY system, a keeping parallel model horizontal table movement can be achieved fairly simply using the "I X I" wire and pulley system that was found on 60's era drafting tables.

 

Andy

[coline33]

Tony, what Bachmann mechs have you used in Felthams, please?   I know BEC/KW Trams produced the kits to motorise the OOC Felthams and Cissie but I did not like the lost of the lower deck, which was also a point about the mechs in the Feltham BEC Kit No.14.   So your use of Bachmann interests me.   The point about harshness of track on trams at "West Croydon" is the constant crossing and recrossing of that junction!!!   Colin.