Parcels Services - BR (SR and WR) Vehicle Allocation and Rostering

[Right Away]

Parcels services have for some time been a source of special interest, if for nothing else than the seemingly myriad of vehicle types assembled in one train.

 

These workings have not always held this degree of fascination; like many a youngster in the 1950s, I often dismissed them as a generally dirty mix of vans, hardly worth a second glance unless perhaps hauled by a locomotive of interest.

 

Fast forward to the present day and those nondescript trains of yesteryear can provide a far more purposeful subject for the modeller. The regional variation of vehicles, some of which in varying degrees of cleanliness, can offer a pleasant random departure from the usually more uniform passenger stock.

 

With regards to BR, predominantly SR and WR services from the '50s to early '60s, I would be grateful if any member has knowledge as to how the stock was rostered for these workings, especially inter-regional services. Would there have been a common regional "pool" from which trains could be assembled?

 

Photographs in books are aplenty, but specific information is rather scarce. I can appreciate that van trains aren't everybody's cup of tea but any help would be appreciated.

[Wickham Green]

Parcels services have for some time been a source of special interest, if for nothing else than the seemingly myriad of vehicle types assembled in one train.

 

These workings have not always held this degree of fascination; like many a youngster in the 1950s, I often dismissed them as a generally dirty mix of vans, hardly worth a second glance unless perhaps hauled by a locomotive of interest.

 

Fast forward to the present day and those nondescript trains of yesteryear can provide a far more purposeful subject for the modeller. The regional variation of vehicles, some of which in varying degrees of cleanliness, can offer a pleasant random departure from the usually more uniform passenger stock.

 

With regards to BR, predominantly SR and WR services from the '50s to early '60s, I would be grateful if any member has knowledge as to how the stock was rostered for these workings, especially inter-regional services. Would there have been a common regional "pool" from which trains could be assembled?

 

Photographs in books are aplenty, but specific information is rather scarce. I can appreciate that van trains aren't everybody's cup of tea but any help would be appreciated.

Most vans would have been on 'circuit' workings of one sort or another so a GUV, say, would have started out from station A one day and a GUV - not necessarily the same one - would have ended up at station A a number of days later ....... fascinating stuff : you can trace each vehicle in Carriage Working Notices but it's very easy to get drawn off at a tangent following the wrong van ! .......... If you're a member, you should be able to borrow a suitable CWN from the Southern Railways Group Library.

[TravisM]

I thought most parcel vans were in common user pool and could be put into any "circuit" as required.

[Dunsignalling]

I always understood that the rostering of most circuit workings didn't become vehicle-specific until TOPS came in. Prior to that, the GUV cited as an example would have more usually been the first vehicle of the specified kind that came to hand. This is how vehicles came to turn up hundreds of miles off their home turf.

 

A prominent exception was the allocation of WR full brakes, many of which had their regular duties painted on the body-sides to prevent them straying. 

 

Because parcels trains usually had portions added and removed (at least once) en-route, it was important that vehicles with guards compartments (usually BGs or SR Vans B/BY) were included in sufficient numbers and in the correct positions when initially forming up the train. The WR practice was probably designed to ensure that their brakes weren't used willy-nilly leading to shortages when and where they were required.

 

There might also be a requirement for at least one brake to have a stove for the guard, leading to the occasional appearance of a fitted or piped goods brake van somewhere in such a formation when a suitably equipped NPCCS vehicle was not available. 

 

As to inter-regional services, certain types of van were jealously guarded by their home regions. I have already mentioned WR BGs, but whilst ordinary SR Utility vans would turn up anywhere between Penzance and Thurso, that was not the case (until much later) with the B/BY vans incorporating guard accommodation.

 

The LMR and ER got lots of new BR Mk.! BGs so their older vehicles ranged widely, with 42' GUVs (Lima type) and 50' BGs becoming quite common on the Southern Region, along with Gresley and Thompson examples off the ER.

 

Stanier Stove Rs were used on some SR milk trains replacing stove-fitted Vans 'B' or 'Queen Mary' brakes.     

 

John

Edited April 30, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Right Away]

Many thanks, John

[Fat Controller]

There are some details of workings in 'Southern Railway Passenger Vans' (Oakwood Press) by David Gould.

[The Johnster]

Parcels vehicles were certainly rostered to circuit working, and any specialised ones like the WR's Siphon Gs used for newspaper traffic were part of passenger or postal fixed rakes, but almost any type of NPCCS worked 'pool', which meant that any of them could and did turn up anywhere, big 4 types being homogenous around the entire network very quickly after Nationalisation.  The Southern kept some 'B' bogie vans with guard's accommodation for their milk trains, the WR using Collet or Hawkworth BGs for their milk traffic.

 

This 'anything anywhere' approach is the delight of modelling parcels trains, and don't forget the pre-nationalisation liveries would have lasted well into the 50s under the filth.

 

Follow Dunsignalling's advice and you won't go far wrong.

Edited May 1, 2018 by The Johnster

[The Stationmaster]

It fell into several different methods but first let's dispose of the Circuit Working matter - this was extremely rare - if it happened at all - until the mid/late 1960s when some bogie vans (and possibly some CCTs as well) were branded for Circuit Working in trains booked to convey BRUTES or very special flows of parcels traffic.  as far as I know these were the only NPCCS (definitely on the WR) ever specifically branded for circuit working and carrying yellow 'Circuit Working' markings.

 

Otherwise NPCCS was dealt with in two ways.  Vans formed in passenger trains and in some Mail or Parcels trains (but by no means wall of the latter) were on diagrammed workings where there inward working was specifically diagrammed to a subsequent outward working.  But the vast majority of Parcels and a lot of Mail workings were simply shown as a formation but the vehicles were not diagrammed and were simply balanced at any location where vans were attached or detached.  Similarly as far as Inter-Rehgional workings were concerned for the vast majority of non-passenger carrying trains vans were simply balanced with a booked daily figure against which actually daily was monitored and allegedly balanced to correct any deficiencies.  

 

This system wasn't a bad idea but the big problem we had in the 1960s was that the LMR seemed to be incapable of drawing a proper van balance.  inevitably its parcels train formations included more 8 wheel vans that it either actually possessed or with which it statrted any particular day of the week.  as a result when 8 wheel vans went to the LM they had a tendency to linch them and not sen d them back in the usual balance working but instead substituted Vanfits for large vans.  the result of this was that many parcels trains suffered delays due to the slow speed of freight vehicles and we had many battles with the Post office over the consequences.

 

So a mixture of the ways of dealing with them but Circuit Working was definitely an odd one out and far from playing a particularly large role in parcels van working.

[The Stationmaster]

Parcels vehicles were certainly rostered to circuit working, and any specialised ones like the WR's Siphon Gs used for newspaper traffic were part of passenger or postal fixed rakes, but almost any type of NPCCS worked 'pool', which meant that any of them could and did turn up anywhere, big 4 types being homogenous around the entire network very quickly after Nationalisation.  The Southern kept some 'B' bogie vans with guard's accommodation for their milk trains, the WR using Collet or Hawkworth BGs for their milk traffic.

 

This 'anything anywhere' approach is the delight of modelling parcels trains, and don't forget the pre-nationalisation liveries would have lasted well into the 50s under the filth.

 

Follow Dunsignalling's advice and you won't go far wrong.

The newspaper vans were mainly NOT in circuit working but worked on diagrammed turns, in some cases diagrammed down to individual vehicle numbers - but not in circuits.

 

(Signed a former manager of the largest yard on the WR dealing with the working and marshalling of newspaper vans.)

[chrisf]

I am sorry for the lateness of my two penn'orth but I have been busy with other things and having the laptop shut down without warning just now did not help.

 

Thanks to Robert Carroll there are many carriage working programmes available for us to study via his Yahoo group but the difiiculty for we mere mortals is making sense of them.  Let us look at an example from 1961.  The composition of the 9.50 pm Paddington - Penzance parcels specified among other things two Vans, three Siphons G, two Fruits D, a Van (Large), a Van (Small) and five Brake Vans, two of which were selected from a list of candidates and would have been branded accordingly.  What, you may well ask, is the difference between a Van, a Large Van and a Small Van?  The Van (Large) was the daily van from Paddington to Kingsbridge, which was known to have been a not infrequent duty for an ex-LNER four wheel brake aka pigeon van or an ex-SR CCT or PMV.  None of these are large!  Not everything on the railway was straightforward or easily explained.

 

Chris   

[br2975]

It fell into several different methods but first let's dispose of the Circuit Working matter - this was extremely rare - if it happened at all - until the mid/late 1960s when some bogie vans (and possibly some CCTs as well) were branded for Circuit Working in trains booked to convey BRUTES or very special flows of parcels traffic.  as far as I know these were the only NPCCS (definitely on the WR) ever specifically branded for circuit working and carrying yellow 'Circuit Working' markings.

 

Otherwise NPCCS was dealt with in two ways.  Vans formed in passenger trains and in some Mail or Parcels trains (but by no means wall of the latter) were on diagrammed workings where there inward working was specifically diagrammed to a subsequent outward working.  But the vast majority of Parcels and a lot of Mail workings were simply shown as a formation but the vehicles were not diagrammed and were simply balanced at any location where vans were attached or detached.  Similarly as far as Inter-Rehgional workings were concerned for the vast majority of non-passenger carrying trains vans were simply balanced with a booked daily figure against which actually daily was monitored and allegedly balanced to correct any deficiencies.  

 

This system wasn't a bad idea but the big problem we had in the 1960s was that the LMR seemed to be incapable of drawing a proper van balance.  inevitably its parcels train formations included more 8 wheel vans that it either actually possessed or with which it statrted any particular day of the week.  as a result when 8 wheel vans went to the LM they had a tendency to linch them and not sen d them back in the usual balance working but instead substituted Vanfits for large vans.  the result of this was that many parcels trains suffered delays due to the slow speed of freight vehicles and we had many battles with the Post office over the consequences.

 

So a mixture of the ways of dealing with them but Circuit Working was definitely an odd one out and far from playing a particularly large role in parcels van working.

 

The first reference I can find to a BRUTE circuit train was one introduced by the Eastern Region in July 1966 which ran Peterborough - Ely - Ipswich - Liverpool St. - Cambridge - Peterborough, apparently replacing some 17 existing parcels workings, and reducing others in length etc.

.

These principals were extended to the ECML from September 1967.

.

Commencing 1969 the Eastern Region instigated BRUTE circuit working on several further trains and eventually this expanded to 'trunk' services..

.

The "Tyne - Severn BRUTE Circuit Working" involved the overhaul of 100 GUV and 20 BG vans, and the repainting (in all blue) of the BG vans. All were authorised for 90mph running..

.

In addition 2,000 BRUTE trollies were earmarked for the system..

.

A GUV was able to load 19 BRUTE trollies and a CCT 13 BRUTE trollies..

.

The floors of the vans were marked out indicating the position of each BRUTE trolley, information was also marked internally at cant rail level..

.

Each van was given a reference e.g. G6 or G7 which started at Sunderland, and each space internally was allotted to a specific BRUTE trolley with dedicated destinations..

.

The BG vans were intended to carry "unBRUTEable" traffic, e.g. large or unusually shaped parcels..

.

All loading was governed by the BLI (BRUTE Loading Instructions).

.

There was a dependence on 'mail order' traffic, apparent from some of the starting points of the services, which initially were:-

20:55 Bradford Foster Sq - Bristol

21:34 Bradford Foster Sq - St. Pancras

22:30 Bradford Foster Sq - Birmingham, Curzon St.

20:45 Sunderland - Leeds.

.

The longest working was the 18:30 Sunderland (South Dock - Brian Mills) - Bristol, which ran as follows

18:30           Sunderland (South Dock - Brian Mills). made up as follows 2x GUV Sunderland-Cardiff, 3x GUV Sunderland - Bristol, also 2x GUV en route Birmingham and 2x GUV & 1x BG Sunderland - Worcester to be detached at Sheffield

.

18:50-19:15 Sunderland Central

.

20:25-20:40 Newcastle Central - attach front, 3x BG ex Newcastle Forth for Bristol, Gloucester and Cardiff; attach rear 3x BG for Doncaster x1, Sheffield x2.

.

20:55-21:05 Durham - load 10x BRUTEs

.

21:32-21:47 Darlington

.

22:26-22:44 York

.

23:23-23:38 Doncaster - detach BG ex Newcastle

.

00:14-00:35 Sheffield - detach 8x vans for Birmingham, Worcester and Didcot (for Paddington), add 1x BG ex Leeds Parcels Concentration Depot also BCK & SO    ex Leeds

.

03:25-03:50 Gloucester - detach 5xvans for Gloucester x1, Cardiff x3, Bristol  x1 going forward at 08:05 ex Gloucester.

.

04:52 . . . . . Bristol arrive.

 

Brian R

Edited May 2, 2018 by br2975

[br2975]

The Western Region, and no doubt others, not only allocated specific vans (in this case Siphon G) but also published loading instructions
.
Below shows the manner in which newspapers should be loaded in a Siphon G and GUV that left Paddington on the 00:40 SuO Paddington-Swansea (News), as per the 1967/1968 WTT
.
The vans were detached at Cardiff, and attached to the 05:05 SuO Cardiff - Treherbert, which in later years ( circa 1970 ) was diagrammed for a Cl.37 which ran light from Radyr to work the train to Treherbert, return it ECS to Canton and then run light back to Radyr . 
 
<- front    rear ->
 
SIPHON G
 
TREHERBERT....TREHAFOD....TONYPANDY....LLWYNYPIA....PONTYPRIDD
........YSTRAD (Rhon)......TREORCHY......TAFFS WELL......DINAS (Rhon)........
 
GUV
 
TREFOREST....MAERDY.....................................................................................
.........................FERNDALE...................PORTH....................LLANDAFF............
.........................TYLORSTOWN...........................................................................
.........................YNYSHIR....................................................................................
 
Detached at Cardiff, off the same 00:40 SuO Paddington - Swansea (News) was a GUV carrying newspapers for the Rhymney Valley and and which went forward behind a derby Suburban Unit (Cl.116) .
The Rhymney GUV was loaded as follows;
 
<- front    rear ->
 
GUV
 
.....RHYMNEY..........................PONTLOTTYN.....................PENGAM.........
.....BARGOED......................YSTRAD MYNACH...............CAERPHILLY.....

 

.

.

Brian R

[Nick Gough]

Although the GWR/WR coach working books often prescribed the type of vehicle required for a specific working in a parcels train many of the vehicles are shown simply as "Van".

 

I presume this means virtually anything could be used in this case, from a four wheel goods van up to an eight/twelve wheel bogie van or brake van? However there is a large difference in capacity between these two extremes so does it not really matter what is used?

[chrisf]

This has long mystified me.  I'm looking at another example.  It specifies a Large Van (Parcel Post) and a Van (Parcel Post), a Large WR Van [whatever that is], no fewer than six Brake Vans of which one is a News Brake Van and three dedicated to a particular working, a Van (Churns) and an 8-wheel Van.  As the instructions were intended for railway staff one can only hope that said staff understood what was expected of them.

 

I can't help wondering about the News Brake Van.  Much attention was paid to speeding newspapers to the west but this one must have escaped the net.  The train in which it was marshalled left Paddington at 5.5 am and reached Bristol at 9.53 am.  Its onward journey to Kingswear began at 3.32 pm and would have taken ages.

 

Chris

[Fat Controller]

This has long mystified me.  I'm looking at another example.  It specifies a Large Van (Parcel Post) and a Van (Parcel Post), a Large WR Van [whatever that is], no fewer than six Brake Vans of which one is a News Brake Van and three dedicated to a particular working, a Van (Churns) and an 8-wheel Van.  As the instructions were intended for railway staff one can only hope that said staff understood what was expected of them.

 

I can't help wondering about the News Brake Van.  Much attention was paid to speeding newspapers to the west but this one must have escaped the net.  The train in which it was marshalled left Paddington at 5.5 am and reached Bristol at 9.53 am.  Its onward journey to Kingswear began at 3.32 pm and would have taken ages.

 

Chris

When was this example you looked at? I remember seeing a Stanier 50' BG labelled something like 'For Use On West Of England Newspaper Train Only. Return to Old Oak Common'. This was in 1976 or thereabouts, and the van was in Rail Blue- the number was something like W31385M or similar.

That was a late departure for a Down Papers; I blagged a ride on one from Paddington to Bristol in 1976, which left about 01:00.

[chrisf]

Brian, it was summer 1961, the 5.5 am Paddington - Bristol parcels.  Logically [see the trap I fell into?] would expect a News Van to leave by 12.30 am at the latest and have its contents with the lucky readers for breakfast.  Its balancing working left Kingswear at 8 pm and Newton Abbot at 10.26 pm and was due into Paddington at 3.55 am on the up Postal.  As far as speed is concerned that's more like it but it's in the wrong direction, surely?  Unless there was more of a readership for Peter Gray's column in the local rag than we realised?

 

Chris

[talisman56]

The WR BGs probably got their workings engraved on the side because any Chocolate/Cream examples that made it anywhere near Clapham Junction were immediately 'borrowed' for use on the Bournemouth Belle...

Edited May 3, 2018 by talisman56

[br2975]

An example of Padd - South Wales formations, and an ancillary working from my 'era' namely 1971.

.

1C33 00:50 SuO Paddington - Swansea, Newspapers.

.

Front

GUV - Swansea

GUV - Swansea

BG - Cardiff

GUV - Cardiff

GUV - Rhymney (detached Cardiff)

GUV - Cardiff

GUV - Cardiff

GUV - Treherbert (detached Cardiff)

GUV - Treherbert (detached Cardiff)

BG - Newport

GUV - Newport

.

The Treherbert vans detached at Cardiff were then strengthened by an added BCK 

.

The loco for the Treherbert service was a Canton Class 37 which during the previous week  had been assigned to diagram 9C75, freight working from Radyr Yard.

.

However, early on Sunday morning it was sparked into life to work the following;

. 

0C75 03:45 SuO Radyr Shed - Cardiff General arr.04:08                                                  

2C80 05:05 SuO Cardiff General - Treherbert arr 07:24                                                    

5C09 08:00 SuO  Treherbert - Cardiff Canton                                                                        

0Z34 09:20 SuO Cardiff Canton - Radyr Junction                                                              

0Z34 09:37 SuO Radyr Junction - Radyr 'Shed' 

The BCK later worked to Swansea on the 23:15 SuO ex Cardiff General, returning on the 21:25 MO ex Swansea, due Cardiff at 22:38.

 

The BCK then rested until the following Sunday before its next jaunt to Treherbert.

.

Brian R

.

Brian R

.

[chrisf]

The equivalent formation for summer 1961 may be of interest:

 

Brake Van, Swansea, to proceed light to Aberystwyth

Siphon G, Neath

Siphon G and Van, Cardiff, forward to Briton Ferry

Large Van, Cardiff, forward to Rhymney

Siphon G and Brake Van, Cardiff

Siphon G, Van and Siphon G, Cardiff, forward to Treherbert

Siphon G, Newport, forward to Blaina

Siphon G, Brake Van and Fruit D, Newport

 

Not a GUV in sight!

 

Chris

[br2975]

In my example above, I quoted the 1C33 00:50 SuO Paddington - Swansea.

 

On weekdays the service ran as 00:50 Paddington - Milford Haven and conveyed several Siphon G vans, which were conspicuous by their absence on the Sunday service.

 

The following Siphon G vans were branded to work within the weekday train

 

W1004W, W1017W, W1018W, W1035W, W1320W, W1325W, Paddington - Carmarthen

.

W1019W, W1026W, W1327W, W1337W Paddington - Cardiff

.

W1003W, W1030W,W1324W, W1326W Paddington - Newport

.

Brian R

[Dunsignalling]

The WR BGs probably got their workings engraved on the side because any Chocolate/Cream examples that made it anywhere near Clapham Junction were immediately 'borrowed' for use on the Bournemouth Belle...

All the branded WR BGs I ever came across were maroon, and I suspect any nicking was more likely to happen at Weymouth, Bournemouth or Basingstoke!

 

It was said that the (unbranded) vehicle in question was so filthy when purloined by the SR that it was assumed the WR didn't have much use for it.

 

SR carriage cleaners allegedly worked on it for two days to make it sufficiently presentable to be seen coupled to the Belle Pullmans. 

 

IIRC, there were before-and-after photos published in one of the heritage magazines a few years ago.

 

John

Edited May 3, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

This has long mystified me.  I'm looking at another example.  It specifies a Large Van (Parcel Post) and a Van (Parcel Post), a Large WR Van [whatever that is], no fewer than six Brake Vans of which one is a News Brake Van and three dedicated to a particular working, a Van (Churns) and an 8-wheel Van.  As the instructions were intended for railway staff one can only hope that said staff understood what was expected of them.

 

I can't help wondering about the News Brake Van.  Much attention was paid to speeding newspapers to the west but this one must have escaped the net.  The train in which it was marshalled left Paddington at 5.5 am and reached Bristol at 9.53 am.  Its onward journey to Kingswear began at 3.32 pm and would have taken ages.

 

Chris

 

I do wonder that 'Large van' was an update of the earlier use of the terms 'Bogie Van' or '8 wheel van' BUT there do seem to have been instances where non-bogie vans were implied by the term.  So I have followed a rather different course of investigation and gone to the original (1927) GWR Loads Book for 'Passenger, Parcels and Fish Trains ...' and I think this might well make sense in the context of train loads and timings.  This publication divided 'foreign' vehicles into the following categories by tare weight -

 

10 tons for horseboxes, carriage trucks etc ... or other small such vehicles,

20 tons for four or six-wheeled passenger carrying vehicles or brake vans,

30 tons for eight-wheeled passenger-carrying vehicles or brake vans other than 70 foot stock, and

40 tons for a Dining Car, Sleeping Car or 70 foot passenger-carrying vehicle or brake van.

 

The figures in respect of 'foreign vehicles' have become applicable to 'vehicles not marked with their tare weight' in the 1962 Loads Book.

 

Now we could work backwards from the Timing Loads for trains in the early 1960s which would give us the tonnage in instances where the formation of WTT etc does not give us the tonnage of a train or we could take a simplistic view.  The latter would suggest to me that a 'large van' would be taken as 30 tons tare (plus allowance for the load) while a ' Small Van' would probably be regarded as 20 tons tare.  There remains a question mark over the term 'Van' as quoted in Chrisf's example in Post No.19 and here we must look elsewhere for further explanation as the term 'Van' used in respect of the Briton Ferry and Cardiff/Treherbert portion will inevitably be bogie vehicles as it was not permitted to mix four or six-wheeled vehicles among bogie vehicles in a formation.  So one step forward - maybe  

[Wickham Green]

 

 

The figures in respect of 'foreign vehicles' have become applicable to 'vehicles not marked with their tare weight' in the 1962 Loads Book.

 

 

Presumably the term "vehicles not marked with their tare weight" is a polite way of saying "vehicles which are so damned grubby that their tare weight cannot be deciphered" !!?!

[talisman56]

All the branded WR BGs I ever came across were maroon, and I suspect any nicking was more likely to happen at Weymouth, Bournemouth or Basingstoke!

 

It was said that the (unbranded) vehicle in question was so filthy when purloined by the SR that it was assumed the WR didn't have much use for it.

 

SR carriage cleaners allegedly worked on it for two days to make it sufficiently presentable to be seen coupled to the Belle Pullmans. 

 

IIRC, there were before-and-after photos published in one of the heritage magazines a few years ago.

 

John

 

Thanks for the additional info. I did my original posting on my mobile and the smilie I added after the ellipsis failed to make it across the ether...

[class8mikado]

Having seen a collection of photos of parcels trains late 5o's early sixties which seem to be a real heinz 57 of kinds and regions... my question is in early br days presumably a train would be held together to its ultimate destinations which could be several hundred miles away but presumably the loco would only work as far as a convenient change point ...  and regional loco and crew would take the trains on.... so no s15's running into lmr or er then.