Class 321's to be converted to hydrogen power

[GoingUnderground]

Is there any link between the use of 321's with

a highly explosive gas like hydrogen, and

the fact that these numbers are often followed

by the words, "Ignition, we have blast off".

Put a match near petrol and you'll have a similar effect, and very many of us drive around with 40-50 litres of the stuff within 10 feet of us in a closed metal can. Explosions are caused by the heat of combustion causing thermal expandion of the air in a closed space and/or the sudden release of large quantities of gaseous material. When the Hindenburg airship was destroyed there was no explosion, but it gave hydrogen a bad name that arguably it doesn't deserve. Edited May 17, 2018 by GoingUnderground

[The Stationmaster]

Suggest you have a quick squint at the Alstom Coradia iLint spec to get an approximate answer to most of that, Mike.

 

True Mike but I don't think it's built to UK loading gauge unless I've missed something

[stewartingram]

Best thing to do with a 321 is fill it full of hydrogen and throw in a lighted match. Dreadful things, I suffered them on my KGX commute enough. Good riddance.

 

Stewart

[Mike Storey]

True Mike but I don't think it's built to UK loading gauge unless I've missed something

 

That really only applies to your point no. 2 Mike. And Alstom seem to be claiming that the tanks will fit the UK loading gauge with their outline drawings for the 321.

 

The rest is relevant, I believe?

[The Stationmaster]

That really only applies to your point no. 2 Mike. And Alstom seem to be claiming that the tanks will fit the UK loading gauge with their outline drawings for the 321.

 

The rest is relevant, I believe?

 

The one bit I still wonder about is impact damage.  While collisions are now a pretty rare event in the UK they d take place at level crossings and can involve quite destructive forces together with very rapid deceleration of a train so I do wonder to what extent that has been taken into account?

[JDW]

I would imagine all such factors have been taken into account.  We operate hydrogen fuelled buses, and they have many more safety features built in that a car where you can just open up a cap and voila, unrestricted access to a tank full of flammable liquid.  If impact sensors detect an impact over a certain speed then the gas is automatically vented to air within a second or two.  There are numerous safety cut-offs to isolate the tanks and fuel lines in the event of a more minor accident.  Overall the technology seems much safer than what we have at present, which we sometimes see as "safe" more through familiarity than anything.  Worrying whether a hydrogen tank might burst in an accident is about as useful as worrying whether a diesel tank might rupture, there's always the possibility of it happening but hydrogen gas will disperse very quickly upwards, diesel will leak slowly all over the scene of the crash.  

[The Stationmaster]

I would imagine all such factors have been taken into account.  We operate hydrogen fuelled buses, and they have many more safety features built in that a car where you can just open up a cap and voila, unrestricted access to a tank full of flammable liquid.  If impact sensors detect an impact over a certain speed then the gas is automatically vented to air within a second or two.  There are numerous safety cut-offs to isolate the tanks and fuel lines in the event of a more minor accident.  Overall the technology seems much safer than what we have at present, which we sometimes see as "safe" more through familiarity than anything.  Worrying whether a hydrogen tank might burst in an accident is about as useful as worrying whether a diesel tank might rupture, there's always the possibility of it happening but hydrogen gas will disperse very quickly upwards, diesel will leak slowly all over the scene of the crash.  

 

Having see it happen I wouldn't really  are to compare it with what can happen when  diesel tank (mounted below body level) is ruptured and catches fire because presumably a spark at the time of impact and tank rupture could just as easily ignite hydrogen as it did the diesel on that occasion.   Although I can understand, obviously, that the subsequent fire would be different in nature from a diesel fire.

[cravensdmufan]

It's a pity we don't have British Rail Research anymore. An organisation that provided a wealth of R&D to railways not just here but internationally.

 

Just the sort of project they would have undertaken and thoroughly tested - such as the remotely controlled Class 46 crash into the nuclear flask.   

Edited May 21, 2018 by cravensdmufan

[JDW]

Having see it happen I wouldn't really  are to compare it with what can happen when  diesel tank (mounted below body level) is ruptured and catches fire because presumably a spark at the time of impact and tank rupture could just as easily ignite hydrogen as it did the diesel on that occasion.   Although I can understand, obviously, that the subsequent fire would be different in nature from a diesel fire.

 

It's certainly true that if there were a direct hit to a tank, there could be a serious fire, and you're certainly right that the fire would be very different in nature.  But for a similar rupture to take place would be much more difficult as the tanks themselves are stronger, and as you say whereas diesel is located under the floor the hydrogen is stored in the roof.  This means not only that any flame would burn upwards away from those inside, but it must also be remembered that in most cases of a serious accident likely to cause a fire the gas would be vented to air before any fire takes hold.  This takes less than a couple of seconds on our buses, after which there is no danger.  With a diesel tank, if it  ruptures the contents can slowly leak out and become a hazard over a wide area, or be thrown along the bottom of the train.

[Ron Ron Ron]

They have a complete unit to production standards and letters of intent for a fleet of 60 (though that may depend on successful trials of the first one), so the Lint is a bit more than an experiment. 

 

http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2017/03/alstoms-hydrogen-train-coradia-ilint-first-successful-run-at-80-kmh/

 

 

 

That news article is over a year old and  reports on the prototype.

As Mike says, there are now some production standard trains running trials on the German rail network.

 

Its in the news again today....

 

https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/25/hydrogen-train-of-the-future/

 

 

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

The first passenger carrying service of the iLint took place in April, as part of the press launch.

Introduction into fare paying commercial service, is due to commence with the first few trains, this summer.

 

 

 

In mid-April, the premiere of the world's first fuel cell train took place: Alstom's Coradia iLint drove from Wiesbaden to Frankfurt-Höchst.

Special trip: Coradia iLint from Wiesbaden to Frankfurt

On April 13, 2018, the world's first special passenger run took place in the Coradia iLint.

Alstom's hydrogen train covered the 30-kilometer section from Wiesbaden to Frankfurt.

The new train is powered solely by a fuel cell that converts hydrogen and oxygen into electricity.

The virtually emission-free fuel cell train from Alstom reaches a speed of 140 km / h and reaches a full tank of about 1,000 kilometers.

The hydrogen is produced in an environmentally friendly way using wind turbines and thus supports the energy turnaround.

The necessary hydrogen filling station for the Coradia iLint is also being built by Infraserv GmbH near the Frankfurt-Höchst station.

Regular use of the hydrogen train from summer 2018

As early as the summer of 2018, the Coradia iLint will be used by Alstom in Lower Saxony in regular passenger service.

From 2022 onwards, first routes in Hesse could follow.

Currently, the vehicles are approved by the Federal Railway Authority (EBA).

 

This is also good news for residents along railway lines: the hydrogen train with fuel cell drive is significantly quieter than diesel vehicles.

 

The press launch.

The big German boss man stops talking at about 1:56 into the video.....

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[Suzie]

With 321s having no end gangway it would surely make sense to put the tanks and fuel cell behind the cab in the driving trailer next to the power car - all self contained and out of the way with just a DC cable to the power car.

[jjb1970]

I linked this article in a thread on ships but it may be of interest here, it's about ships but there is some crossover:

 

http://theconversation.com/greener-fuels-may-not-make-shipping-safer-heres-why-96306

[Mike Storey]

That news article is over a year old and  reports on the prototype.

As Mike says, there are now some production standard trains running trials on the German rail network.

 

Its in the news again today....

 

https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/25/hydrogen-train-of-the-future/

 

 

 

 

.

 

That's the best description I have read yet. Puts RT (not the Russian one) and the others to shame, a little bit.

[cravensdmufan]

The first passenger carrying service of the iLint took place in April, as part of the press launch.

Introduction into fare paying commercial service, is due to commence with the first few trains, this summer.

 

 

 

 

The press launch.

The big German boss man stops talking at about 1:56 into the video.....

 

That looks some smart train alright.  Imagine, we could have those instead of Pacers.  Dream on......!

[Mike Storey]

That looks some smart train alright.  Imagine, we could have those instead of Pacers.  Dream on......!

 

You wouldn't like them. All the schoolkids bundle into the comfy seats. You would have to sit with the wheelchairs and prams in the basement.

[cravensdmufan]

Class 319 now converted instead of a 321. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-48698044/hydrogen-trains-are-these-the-eco-friendly-trains-of-the-future

Edited June 20, 2019 by cravensdmufan

[dana]

15 minutes ago, cravensdmufan said:

Class 319 now converted instead of a 321. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-48698044/hydrogen-trains-are-these-the-eco-friendly-trains-of-the-future

799001 ...  Class 799 ?   that's what i gather from the number

[Colin_McLeod]

Hydrogen train shown on BBC1 news this morning. Will be repeated again before or after 9:00 am

[locoholic]

4 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

Class 319 now converted instead of a 321. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-48698044/hydrogen-trains-are-these-the-eco-friendly-trains-of-the-future

And yet again claims that hydrogen is totally green, without mentioning the massive amount of energy required to capture the hydrogen in the first place.

Of course, if the energy comes from solar or a wind turbine, that's fine (apart from the carbon footprint from manufacturing said devices). But if it comes from other means of generation, it's worse than just running a train on diesel.

[black and decker boy]

4 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

Class 319 now converted instead of a 321. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-48698044/hydrogen-trains-are-these-the-eco-friendly-trains-of-the-future

Different ROSCO, different trial

 

porterbrook are doing Hydroflex using 319s

 

vivarail are planning a version of their D78/class 230

 

eversholt (with Alston) are doing their Breeze conversion of a class 321.

 

lets hope we don’t run out of hydrogen :-)

[mikejames]

one of the problems with renewable energy sources is that storing the energy until its needed

is not a trivial problem on a large scale.

creating hydrogen is one of the ways to store this energy.

it has the advantage of being portable and can be used to power trains

and other things like cars.

there have been several reports recently on 'the hydrogen economy'

and similar titles.

I don't think there will be a single solution to the energy storage problem

but a mix of different technologies of which hydrogen will be one.

 

mike james

 

 

 

 

 

[melmerby]

I was (un)impressed by the huge amount of kit in the 319 to make it work

One whole carriage was full of technology.

I know some would be the monitoring equipment but some seemed to be the actual drive package.

[Colin_McLeod]

Just now, melmerby said:

I was (un)impressed by the huge amount of kit in the 319 to make it work

One whole carriage was full of technology.

I know some would be the monitoring equipment but some seemed to be the actual drive package.

 

It's a prototype; just like the APT-E which had massive tilting machinery and a whole coach full of "flashing lights" ( as modelled by Jason of Rapido)

[Trog]

Just a thought but was the weight of the water tanks in the roof of the catering vehicle at Hatfield not given as one of the reasons that the coach turned over when derailed?

 

Presumably tanks of liquid hydrogen are of similar weight and hence constitute a similar risk, if placed in the roof of the vehicle.