Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[Northroader]

“Pile of grot”! It’s scary how neat everything is.

”What do we want??” “Teaky to revert to his old avatar!!” “When do we want it??” “Now!!”

[Martin S-C]

He is looking a bit orange, I must say.

No, this isn't neat. Go to Chris' thread for NEAT. His layout looks good enough to eat.

[Martin S-C]

First in a series of blog posts by Roger Farnworth on the Forest of Dean, its industry and transport. He is also linking the blog posts to the 19th Century Railways Facebook Group (well worth following!).

 

https://rogerfarnworth.com/2017/09/26/lydney-harbour/?fbclid=IwAR12meJKHqfsCOvPmbv29RKf93KuxWYwhzt5s7CdkoD-0uUOaLRwO7TFRd0/

 

More entries by Mr Farnworth about the Forest:

https://rogerfarnworth.com/category/forest-of-dean/

 

Bullo Dock today...

Edited June 3, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Northroader]

This ones right up your street. I think Roger Farnworth is actually a reverend, rather than a mister. He does some amazing research, plotting the course of the line with photos, and linking in to old pictures, all you’d ever really need. I’ve been following his series on narrow gauge in the SW of France and the West Clare, and he’s done the Kelvedon & Tollesbury. More lead to his pencil!

[Martin S-C]

I've just read his entry on the Pen-Y-Darren Tramroad. Really engaging and well worth a read.

I'm working on my next signal box diagram and could use some advice, I'll just put the pic up and invite criticism and any other remarks. I'm fully aware that there was never such a thing as a junction disc and crossbar signal as far as I'm aware although there is photographic evidence of what seems to be two discs mounted one above the other on a single post which may amount to the same thing, with presumably the upper disc controlling the main route and the lower the subsidiary, though without of course any indication of whether that diverged to left or right. I will need ground discs here but do not plan on making these operational. Due to the short distances between station on the layout I am not going to use distants in any of the three directions towards Snarling.

 

I haven't added lever numbers yet, obviously. There's nothing extra to worry about like level crossing gates.

 

[Corbs]

Looks lovely! Should it be 'to Nether Madder' rather than 'from', as it's bidirectional and the other two are both 'to'?

[Martin S-C]

I'm not sure about the to/from notation. Several signal box diagrams I've studied for inspiration seem to use "from" when that is the up direction and "to" to any station that is down. In later years (BR) these quaint details appear to vanish but that is what I'm using on the basis that that's what I think it was conveying. I'm possibly wrong. If there's an expert out there...?

[lezz01]

Hi Martin. If they are disc and crossbar signals did they have signal boxes when they were in use? I thought they were operated from the bottom of each signal post by hand and not connected to a box as such. I maybe totally wrong as my signaling knowledge is totally post 1860's midland orientated and sketchy at best.

Regards Lez.    

[Annie]

 

Martin this is an early signal I use in various places along my rambling little railway empire.  It might be the kind of thing you're looking for.

Edit:  Those are lamps at the top of the signal.  I can take a more clear snap of the signal if it would be helpful.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Annie
more to say

[Martin S-C]

My understanding is that disc signals were operated by a rotating rod that turned through 90deg inside the structure of the post (or secured to it by brackets) so I am wondering how one would mechanically work a doll on one of these.

I like your signals Annie. I assume the lamp rotates through 90deg as well, but as I see no shade on the lens, wouldn't a loco crew still see a red light at night?

 

Here's the disc signal on Brain's tramway Forest of Dean I mentioned before that existed into the 1930s It was worked from a signal box (or rather not worked because the crossing it protected was out of use, but the linkages were present as the photograph shows the wire).

 

Generally speaking, Lez, yes they were bobby-operated when first installed but any that did still exist by the time of my model would have been controlled from a signal box as part of the block working. Its highly doubtful if any were still in use controlling passenger trains by the time of the Great War as the one above protected a horse-drawn tramway but I can dream.

 

Here is a tantalizing undated photo of Penzance which, judging from the wagons in the goods shed, is in broad gauge days. It appears to show a single post with two crossbars of large and small dimensions one above the other and above them two discs, again of different diameter, small above large. Lacking more information one can only surmise its function and how it was operated. Part way down the post appears to be a lamp and below that a board of some kind (route indicator? shunt signal?), function unknown.

 

Part of the superb collection of engineering models of early signals at the NRM ,York, in their warehouse. To left and right are cut-out discs that revolve (not rotate) 90deg either way within the plane of the disc itself and presumably indicated left and right diverging routes, horizontal being "danger". I haven't determined why the danger indication has the cut-outs at the bottom in the left-hand example and at the top on the right hand one. Note pairs of lamps lower down with lenses on two adjacent faces which would have shown red and white aspects. The left hand model shows what looks like a "bobby" operated crank handle near the base. The right hand information card shows a date of 1840. The centre signal is another rotating signal, this time a half-disc, of the Grand Junction Railway, 1848, showing a red light when the board is face-on to an approaching train and white when turned away.

 

More NRM models. Another Grand Junction 1838 half-disc at left. Conventional disc and cross bar second from left. Label declares its a "Liverpool and Manchester Railway and Scottish type, 1840". Note that since these are models the operating handles of these are quite simple so I'm unsure if they replicate the mechanism of the prototype. "Flag" signal is third from left, annotated "Semaphore, GWR, c.1843". The flag faces the train for danger and is turned parallel to the track for Clear. It doesn't raise and lower. And at far right the "flapping double paddle" affair similar to yours Annie, though this model carries no lamp. Unfortunately the model has its actuating rods facing away from the viewing side of the display case, or they're within the post.

 

At left a conventional signal that I wasn't interested in photographing, next to it another (1846) double paddle or double disc signal showing the rear with bracing boards across the horizontals of the discs and the counterweight arm to return the signal to danger in the event of a wire breaking. Actuating rods are either not shown or are inside the post. On the right a two-way facing slotted post signal with a windlass and handle for presumably lowering the lamp. I can't make out any coloured spectacles on the far side relevant to the arm facing away.

 

The labels indicate that almost all the models were built c.1975 and possibly came from a single person's collection.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Stubby47]

As there appears to be no definitive, standard design and as you've said these would have, in reality, been replaced by more conventional signals in your layout's time period, why not create your own set of signals specifically for your railway?

[Annie]

 

The signals on my layout are fairly basic and are old digital models that were made from not especially good period illustrations so there's not much in the way of detail.  In its present aspect it's showing a red light to the front and a white light to the rear and when turned through 90 degrees it displays a green light and the red light is extinguished as it rotates to the side position.  I suppose that's replicating the action of some kind of shutter arrangement in the prototype lamp.

I use these on the Stone Delving quarry line and also on my 3ft gauge line to the wharf at Tenpenny Beach.  I like old signals and they make a change from the usual semaphore type.  

[Martin S-C]

2 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

As there appears to be no definitive, standard design and as you've said these would have, in reality, been replaced by more conventional signals in your layout's time period, why not create your own set of signals specifically for your railway?

I'd like to use some kit parts if I can find some. Maybe MSL do slotted posts? I need to investigate.

I agree though, this is an opportunity to go quirky and unique and that sort of thing always appeals.

[Nearholmer]

I’m gradually trying to signal my layout with Bassett-Lowke upper-quadrant signals with metal posts, and have been gathering ‘playworn’ ones to strip and rebuild for a couple of places that need very non-standard arrays.

 

In a job-lot If tatty items that I got recently came this one, which is a quite rare GNR-style somersault. It clearly needs a bit of TLC, but it is rather neat.

[Edwardian]

I have not gone further on CA than an early decision that the level crossing could retain a disc and bar signal and that the others would be only slightly more modern slot in post.  Since the WNR concept has become grander since then, I may have to consider other options,  I'll be interested to see what Martin comes up with.  

[Martin S-C]

Given that I am setting a scene in 1919 my use of slotted posts and disc+crossbars is really off in the realms of fantasy. You might argue that there would be a complete hiatus on infrastructure modernisation after 1914 but in fact the Forest of Dean saw a good deal of activity by the Ministry of Supply during the First and Second wars using various locations for ammunition storage and in other locations around the country trackwork and signalling was improved to cope with wartime traffic, so all in all its a bit of a Rule 1 thing with my layout I am afraid. I really cannot justify signalling arrangements and some very quirky 1850s rolling stock over and over without the mask slipping.

I do have a soft spot for disc+crossbars though and will probably go for these mixed in with slotted posts. Maybe the showcase main terminus will have had money spent on it and have "proper" semaphores. Then again I come across nice models at shows like this USA logging line with a ball and chain signal and I start to want one of them too...

 

[Stubby47]

And why shouldn't the harbour tramway utilise redundant buoys for their signalling?

[Regularity]

There was a ball signal at Whitefield, New Hampshire at the intersection between the Boston and Maine and Maine Central Railroads that fell into disuse only recently.

[Martin S-C]

A little too distant from Gloucestershire for me to use it as an example, sadly.

Neil has been busy with other business in the last few days so track-laying being such a doddle I've laid Catspaw Halt out, drilling holes for point motors but not adding the droppers yet. In a previous life (heck, it seems so long ago now but must have been the early 1990s that I last worked in 4mm scale) I worked with Peco code 100 which was very forgiving but the flimsiness of code 75 was brought home to me today as I tried to cut it with a razor saw (I really ought to invest in a Dremel) and attempted to push fishplates on. Quite the chore, doing that. Got the basic track layout finished however and even tested the passing loop length with the branch passenger train, to discover there's loads of room.

Looking west. Farthest siding is the wood distillation works, middle right is the lime kilns and near right the quarry.

The timber platform of the halt will be in the middle of the left hand loop, where there's a wider bit of board on the

left. Passenger trains won't pass here. Freight will.

 

A more distant view showing the wibbly-wobbly quarry siding which I laid deliberately badly. Honest.

 

Quarry on the left, branch line going into a tunnel and up the grade to Coggles Causeway in the centre, main line grade up to Green Soudley on the right.

 

More distant view.

 

Branch train at the platform. Sort of. Loco needs a repaint. I think it'll turn yellow ochre as well eventually, although I'm tempted for a GER blue for the WELR locos as this will match nicely the crimson lake coaches.

 

Loads of space in the passing loop. All branch locos will face in the up direction to Snarling Junction due to the gradients which

are severe and all drop down to the terminus.

 

Track pins are temporary!

[Schooner]

Amazing to see the plan becoming reality...what a project!

[BWsTrains]

1 hour ago, Martin S-C said:

A little too distant from Gloucestershire for me to use it as an example, sadly.

Neil has been busy with other business in the last few days so track-laying being such a doddle I've laid Catspaw Halt out, drilling holes for point motors but not adding the droppers yet. In a previous life (heck, it seems so long ago now but must have been the early 1990s that I last worked in 4mm scale) I worked with Peco code 100 which was very forgiving but the flimsiness of code 75 was brought home to me today as I tried to cut it with a razor saw (I really ought to invest in a Dremel) and attempted to push fishplates on. Quite the chore, doing that. Got the basic track layout finished however and even tested the passing loop length with the branch passenger train, to discover there's loads of room.

Looking west. Farthest siding is the wood distillation works, middle right is the lime kilns and near right the quarry.

The timber platform of the halt will be in the middle of the left hand loop, where there's a wider bit of board on the

left. Passenger trains won't pass here. Freight will.

 

A more distant view showing the wibbly-wobbly quarry siding which I laid deliberately badly. Honest.

 

Quarry on the left, branch line going into a tunnel and up the grade to Coggles Causeway in the centre, main line grade up to Green Soudley on the right.

 

More distant view.

 

Branch train at the platform. Sort of. Loco needs a repaint. I think it'll turn yellow ochre as well eventually, although I'm tempted for a GER blue for the WELR locos as this will match nicely the crimson lake coaches.

 

Loads of space in the passing loop. All branch locos will face in the up direction to Snarling Junction due to the gradients which

are severe and all drop down to the terminus.

 

Track pins are temporary!

Martin,

 

Lovely work and progress.

 

Just one question about the top tier above the quarry, marked Carriage/ Wagon Shops and Carriage Shed if I'm reading your plans correctly. Although < 3 feet from the front, I'm wondering if the elevation / having 4 tracks back there + buildings will make access a problem in event of need?

 

Having said that it looks to be the biggest "reach" in your design so if you can manage that OK...

 

Colin

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

the flimsiness of code 75 was brought home to me today as I tried to cut it with a razor saw

I never use a razor saw to cut track/rail these days - always Xuron cutters.

[Nearholmer]

You beat me to it.

 

marvellous tool, with so many more uses than cutting 4mm scale rail.

[Martin S-C]

And cheaper than a Dremel!

 

Colin - well spotted. I regret to say that my plan was a little ambitious in some areas with baseboard reach an issue at several locations - the colliery is the biggest problem as that will very much be a hands-on affair and I may have to build a small raised platform for the operator of that end of the layout to stand on, or at the very least provide a step stool. A raised platform will fit in here neatly as its the end of the main operating well beyond the doorway with no-one else needing access. I am however always concerned about raised areas to stand on because it'll be sod's law the person will forget and step backwards off it. I'm still chewing this over.

Tracks at the two main termini will also be slewed a little closer to the baseboard edge because in each case reaching to uncouple a loco that draws a train into the bay platform could be an issue, plus at Green Soudley the canalside wharf road is even further away still. I am considering uncouplers between the rails at these locations to save on reaching across.

The carriage sheds and C&W workshops are less of an issue because really its a set of storage sidings cunningly disguised as a scenic feature. I can haul rakes of stock in and out of them via the loco turning triangle without much problem, select the vehicles needed and shunt the rest back. There won't be any great need to access couplings back there and those I do need to get at the most will be the freight vehicles which are the front two roads. I'm also now dubious about fitting 4 sidings back there. The pair of wagon sidings may have to be reduced to a single one. Everything fits on paper but we all know that doesn't mean it will work or look right in the flesh. The carriage shed building itself will be one of those corrugated tin affairs held up on exposed legs without sides, or only partial sides, I haven't decided yet on a pitched roof or a round roof as at Watlington but the roof will also be removable. The open sides, as well as being prototypical to allow air to circulate and dry out wet vehicles also allow the operator to see which coach rakes are in there. I shall also try and stable the rakes an inch or two apart so they don't all couple up.

I am having second thoughts about the kickback siding from the quarry at Catspaw. Now its laid it cramps the look of this area and makes the baseboard look narrower. Accessing it from the quarry will be a pain, so I'm having a ponder about that one.

So much for all that careful planning and I do recall a few people mentioned the plan was too crowded.

[CameronL]

Hi Martin.

 

The seminal book The Art of War by the Chinese military strategist Sun Tzu states that "No plan of battle survives contact with the enemy." There should be a model railway version that states that "No layout plan survives contact with the baseboard."  It's never like it looked on paper.

 

On the matter of uncouplers vs the Hand of God I've always gone for the uncouplers. I was inspired by an RM article in the '70s which showed how to use Perspex strips pinned between the rails and bent to shape as a low-viz uncoupler. I've found a really suitable material for this purpose - laminator pouches. If you laminate an empty pouch in the card folder it has just the right bend that a train running over it will keep going but a pair of wagons stopped over it will have their couplings detached. You'd hardly notice that it's there, particularly compared to some of the commercially-available uncouplers. And it's really cheap - if one wears out it's no problem to replace it. OK, you need a laminator but they're not very expensive and if you want to run regular operating sessions with train orders, schedules etc you can easily justify the cost of one. I've had one for a long time for work - it was a bonus to find out that it could be used for my hobby as well. 

 

As for the kickback siding at Catspaw - totally understand. Can I be a bit controversial here? The quarry at Catspaw produces limestone. The kickback siding is for access to lime kilns. This involves quarried limestone being loaded into railway wagons and then transferred all of 3 feet to be unloaded to charge the kilns. 

 

When we develop a model railway we have to make some compromises, and one of those relates to lineside industries. An entire factory might be hinted at by a scenic backdrop with a loading dock. A mineral line disappearing under a road bridge will see empty wagons going in and full ones coming out, hinting at the mine or quarry that's loading those wagons. 

 

So, what do you want your lime industry to do? Just carry the limestone from the quarry, which would be done in ordinary mineral wagons, or ship the quicklime (limestone which has been calcinated in a kiln) to where it might be used industrially, which would need those well-weathered lime wagons (called "cottage tops" by railway workers - lovely name).

 

Many limestone quarries in Victorian times (and hanging on in the 20th century) had kilns on site which produced the quicklime without any need for shipping the raw material anywhere. Would you consider getting rid of the kickback siding and developing the quarry siding as a quicklime production facility, with the kilns at that end of Catspaw? The quarry feeding the kilns could be hinted at by the method used to charge the kilns - possibly a narrow-gauge tramway with wagons pulled by horses - and therefore the space on the layout could be used for the kiln setup. I know it removes a bit of shunting but you'd still need to get both the cottage tops and coal wagons to provide the fuel for the kilns on that siding. 

 

It's just a thought. If you're really cooling on the idea of the kickback this gives you an alternative. Feel free to ignore this or tell me I'm totally out of order.

 

PS - very jealous that you're laying track. If it wasn't for the fact that I'm shuttling between the South East and the North West at the moment and you're in Peterborough you'd have a willing volunteer to help. I love track laying. Keep the updates coming. I think there's a lot of people see a future Railway Of The Month in the making.

 

Cam