Duchesses off their patch in BR days

[TerryD1471]

A question arose with me many years ago when an acquaintance of mine told me that he had seen a Duchess travelling up the Midland main line in the SW suburbs of Birmingham (Northfield) having presumably climbed Lickey. He assured me that he jumped on a bus to the city and got into New Street just in time to see it pulling out. He dated the incident some time in the early 60s.

 

I have posted this question in various forums, and never received any corroboration, so wondered whether it actually ever happened!

 

UNTIL today, when I found a picture on the RCTS website of 46240 City of Coventry in the Midland side of New Street, having apparently arrived from the south west. So I pose the question again and wonder if anyone knows anything about this because workings of Duchesses off the WCML were very rare.

 

Also if anyone knows of any other "oddball" workings of Duchesses, I'd be glad to know.

 

 

[Pannier Tank]

In order to work "The East Midlander" Rail tour 46251 City of Nottingham (Light Engine) traversed the Bletchley to Oxford Branch Line as far as Claydon LNE Junc then went to Nottingham Victoria via the Great Central.

 

This link https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/60s/640509em.html shows the Duchess at Didcot.

[ikks]

In order to work "The East Midlander" Rail tour 46251 City of Nottingham (Light Engine) traversed the Bletchley to Oxford Branch Line as far as Claydon LNE Junc then went to Nottingham Victoria via the Great Central.

 

This link https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/60s/640509em.html shows the Duchess at Didcot.

Not sure if this counts but 46245 "London" came from Crewe to Derby in the early sixties(1961???) for the Railway Agricultural Show as did 46251 "Nottingham" and I believe 46247 "Liverpool" put in at least one appearance on a special over the S&C. Late in their life they were to be seen on the North Wales route..........but to me they were always the West Coast Magnus Opus. 

Superb engines

 

Mike

 

Mike

[Gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

 

They very occasionally worked between Preston and Liverpool Exchange as did the Princess Royals. Express passenger trains along that line was usually worked by double headed Black Fives and Jubilees from the 1930's displacing L&Y types, with Scots, Clans and Britannias  form the 1950's onward.

 

Gibbo.

[Arun Sharma]

Right at the end of her life, City of London was photographed at Paddington - pic in the ?Sep '64 Railway Magazine. The same engine had also worked a ?1963 special on the ECML out of Kings Cross. Informal/informed comments were made in the railway press of the time regarding her speed down Stoke Bank.......

[pH]

In this post, there are records of Duchesses (and other ex-LMS and BR standard locomotives) on Perth-Edinburgh workings via the Glenfarg route and the Forth Bridge:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65351-the-glenfarg-route/?p=887331

[TerryD1471]

Right at the end of her life, City of London was photographed at Paddington - pic in the ?Sep '64 Railway Magazine. The same engine had also worked a ?1963 special on the ECML out of Kings Cross. Informal/informed comments were made in the railway press of the time regarding her speed down Stoke Bank.......

Yes, I understand someone had unofficially timed her at 118 mph down Stoke; sadly uncorroborated!

[Coach bogie]

There is a pic here of 46251 City of Nottingham on Swindon shed after working a RCTS East Midlander railtour in 1964

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/steam-gwr/castle-4-6-0/hA88B4A26#ha88b5303

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Dava]

In order to work "The East Midlander" Rail tour 46251 City of Nottingham (Light Engine) traversed the Bletchley to Oxford Branch Line as far as Claydon LNE Junc then went to Nottingham Victoria via the Great Central.

 

This link https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/60s/640509em.html shows the Duchess at Didcot.

46251 is reputed to have reached 100mph on the flat stretch across Gotham Moor on the return leg on the GCR, who knows?

 

Dava

[Poor Old Bruce]

Not sure if this counts but 46245 "London" came from Crewe to Derby in the early sixties(1961???) for the Railway Agricultural Show as did 46251 "Nottingham" and I believe 46247 "Liverpool" put in at least one appearance on a special over the S&C. Late in their life they were to be seen on the North Wales route..........but to me they were always the West Coast Magnus Opus. 

Superb engines

 

'6245 was at Derby Horticultural Show in 1964 complete with newly applied yellow stripe, it was withdrawn within a month of that appearance .  '6254 was there in 1961, '6256 in 1962, '6251 in 1963 and Duke of Gloucester on another occasion.

[luckymucklebackit]

There are photographs in various books and video of Duchesses hauling rakes of non-corridor coaches in and out of St Enoch and Central, also at Princes Street in Edinburgh working a stopper to Glasgow.  There is one by George C O'Hara of "Princess Alice" on an Ayr to Glasgow race day relief leaving Prestwick and Sir Bill itself on St Margarets..  They were also not unknown at Buchanan Street.

 

Jim

Edited August 26, 2018 by luckymucklebackit

[Gibbo675]

46251 is reputed to have reached 100mph on the flat stretch across Gotham Moor on the return leg on the GCR, who knows?

 

Dava

Hi Dava,

 

I rode upon the footplate of 6229 between Carlise and Crewe on its first trip over Shap quite some years ago and on the stretch that parallels the M6 just north of Preston 104 mph was shewing on the speedo. That was actually calculated as 97 mph because of a calibration error on the speedo.

 

What was impressive was when, as it was drizzling, the engine lost its feet and got into a high speed slip, the speedo needle went right around to the needle rest at zero. Who knows what speed the wheels were going round ! The engine was not even trying with either twelve or thirteen on and had its gear wound right up to 20% with only partial regulator opening, plenty in reserve and a good 25 - 30 mph faster than the cars on the motorway.

 

Other speed misdemeanors when on the footplate were, 34067 104 mph, 45407 93 mph and 76079 86 mph all with calibrated speedo's.

 

Gibbo.

[TheSignalEngineer]

A question arose with me many years ago when an acquaintance of mine told me that he had seen a Duchess travelling up the Midland main line in the SW suburbs of Birmingham (Northfield) having presumably climbed Lickey. He assured me that he jumped on a bus to the city and got into New Street just in time to see it pulling out. He dated the incident some time in the early 60s.

 

I have posted this question in various forums, and never received any corroboration, so wondered whether it actually ever happened!

 

UNTIL today, when I found a picture on the RCTS website of 46240 City of Coventry in the Midland side of New Street, having apparently arrived from the south west. So I pose the question again and wonder if anyone knows anything about this because workings of Duchesses off the WCML were very rare.

 

Also if anyone knows of any other "oddball" workings of Duchesses, I'd be glad to know.

Engine Restrictions in the WR Working Timetables in the 1960-62 show that all Stanier Pacifics were barred between Barnt Green and Bristol, so they shouldn't have been seen on Lickey.

 

Duchesses did get as far as Kings Norton with ECS off Euston trains in the last year of their service when those trains ceased to run through to Wolverhampton. I can remember clearance tests being carried out on the Midland side c1963. It was reported in the railway press at the time.

 

According to the New Street Arrivals and Departures book, in the summer of 1964 the 8.45am Euston to Birmingham arrived on platform 5 at 11.35am then left for Kings Norton at 11.50am. The light engine for the return working at 5pm left Aston MPD at 3.14pm and passed through platform 9 at 3.23pm en route to Kings Norton. I can't find a light engine working from Kings Norton off the incoming service so it possibly went via Camp Hill to Proof House then reversed to get to Aston, which would get it the right way round without use of a turntable. Although the 5pm was booked in platform 3, I saw it use platform 7 on occasions.

 

Any documentary evidence or better still a photo of a Duchess running tender first down Camp Hill bank and round the 5mph curve to Exchange Sidings would be welcome.

[Stephenwolsten]

A failed Duchess appeared at Aintree freight shed in the Sixties.   We spotters couldn't believe it at first.

[Pobrien]

In February 1963 (during the Big Freeze) 46220 arrived in Bristol on the Glasgow portion of a Manchester to Plymouth train. It travelled via Shrewsbury and the Severn Tunnel and was serviced at St Philips Marsh Shed, where I saw it later in the day. I believe it worked back LE.

[Phil Bullock]

In February 1963 (during the Big Freeze) 46220 arrived in Bristol on the Glasgow portion of a Manchester to Plymouth train. It travelled via Shrewsbury and the Severn Tunnel and was serviced at St Philips Marsh Shed, where I saw it later in the day. I believe it worked back LE.

 

And certainly not uncommon at Shrewsbury on running in turns from Crewe following shopping

 

Phil

[Gibbo675]

A failed Duchess appeared at Aintree freight shed in the Sixties.   We spotters couldn't believe it at first.

Hi Stephen,

 

Here are the details, July 30 1961, 46238 City of Carlisle (12A) slipped violently at Ormskirk causing sparks that set fire to the embankment while at the head of the 10:55 ex Glasgow. The slip damaged its motion and the locomotive was deemed a complete failure at Town Green & Aughton and was hauled along with its train into Liverpool Exchange by WD 90712 (27B) running tender first. the WD towed it to Aintree shed where it was stored for almost a month before removal to Crewe Works.

 

The previous visit to Liverpool Exchange was 46232 Duchess of Montrose (66A) July3 1950 in charge of the 13:40 ex Glasgow Central.

 

There are various notes and photos in the book, Steam on Merseyside and beyond including 46238 on Aintree Shed and 46248 at Burscough Junction and Walton Junction 12 August 1962.

 

Gibbo.

[Stephenwolsten]

Hi Stephen,

 

Here are the details, July 30 1961, 46238 City of Carlisle (12A) slipped violently at Ormskirk causing sparks that set fire to the embankment while at the head of the 10:55 ex Glasgow. The slip damaged its motion and the locomotive was deemed a complete failure at Town Green & Aughton and was hauled along with its train into Liverpool Exchange by WD 90712 (27B) running tender first. the WD towed it to Aintree shed where it was stored for almost a month before removal to Crewe Works.

 

The previous visit to Liverpool Exchange was 46232 Duchess of Montrose (66A) July3 1950 in charge of the 13:40 ex Glasgow Central.

 

There are various notes and photos in the book, Steam on Merseyside and beyond including 46238 on Aintree Shed and 46248 at Burscough Junction and Walton Junction 12 August 1962.

 

Gibbo.

Thanks for this response.   I had forgotten the Steam on Merseyside book as a source - a great book.

 

Stephen

[Carl LaFong]

Two Princess Coronations and one Princess Royal were loaned to the Southern Region in the middle 1950's to cover for the temporarily withdrawn Merchant Navy Class following the accident at Crewkerne.

Relying on memory I think 46237 City of Bristol and 46236 City of Bradford were the locos concerned.

They would almost certainly be used on the Southern main lines to the west.

[Carl LaFong]

Also I remember the Western Region borrowed a couple of them to cover for ex-GWR Kings which were temporarily withdrawn with front bogie derailing problems.

Again 46237 was one - I can't remember any other ones.

[LMS2968]

Two Princess Coronations and one Princess Royal were loaned to the Southern Region in the middle 1950's to cover for the temporarily withdrawn Merchant Navy Class following the accident at Crewkerne.

Relying on memory I think 46237 City of Bristol and 46236 City of Bradford were the locos concerned.

They would almost certainly be used on the Southern main lines to the west.

I don't remember reading anything about that. There were some Black Fives sent south, but the Pacifics would have been a tight fit in the SR loading gauge.

 

Are you sure you aren't confusing the loan to the Western to caver for the loss of the Kings while they had their bogies strengthened?

[Steamysandy]

End of October 1954, Carlisle was flooded and some trains were diverted via Edinburgh and Newcastle.WJV Anderson photographed 46221 passing Polmont on the up Royal Scot.

Personally I remember seeing a Duchess passing Longniddry very slowly on an up train

[melmerby]

Off Piste:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrwo1044.htm

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrwo1040.htm

 

Keith

Edited August 27, 2018 by melmerby

[melmerby]

Two Princess Coronations and one Princess Royal were loaned to the Southern Region in the middle 1950's to cover for the temporarily withdrawn Merchant Navy Class following the accident at Crewkerne.

Relying on memory I think 46237 City of Bristol and 46236 City of Bradford were the locos concerned.

They would almost certainly be used on the Southern main lines to the west.

46237, 46254 & 46257 were at Old Oak Common through part of 1956 subbing for Kings

 

Keith

 

EDIT 46236 took part in the 1948 loco exchanges and ran from Waterloo to Exeter

Edited August 28, 2018 by melmerby

[Carl LaFong]

LMS2968 Yes you are correct - a case of a senior moment on my part. I obviously got the two events mixed up. I began to have doubts about the Southern loan after I posted it, too late alas!