Class 254 power car pairings 1978

[jonny777]

Does anyone have a list of the ER power car pairings for the set numbers painted on the fronts (254001 and so on) please? 

 

I can find a few lists of trailer car formations, but the Platform 5 books I have list the power cars separately and not which pair were originally allocated each 254xxx number.  I am only interested in the initial late 1970s ER formations. 

 

I have done a search here, but it is very hard to find a wording which doesn't result in lots of irrelevant threads being returned. 

[45125]

Does anyone have a list of the ER power car pairings for the set numbers painted on the fronts (254001 and so on) please? 

 

I can find a few lists of trailer car formations, but the Platform 5 books I have list the power cars separately and not which pair were originally allocated each 254xxx number.  I am only interested in the initial late 1970s ER formations. 

 

I have done a search here, but it is very hard to find a wording which doesn't result in lots of irrelevant threads being returned. 

 

43056 and 43057 were part of 254001 the rest are in sequence from there.

[jonny777]

Thanks 45125, it will probably be enough info for my purposes. 

[Trev52A]

@jonny

 

Colin J. Marsden's 2001 book 'HST Silver Jubilee' lists all the HST power cars against their original set numbers.

As 45125 has said, you could work out the ER pairs from the starting point he has mentioned, but if you would like to double check those or any others I would be happy to look them up.

 

Cheers

Trevor

[EddieK]

My first ever trip on an HST was August 1978 when 254016 correctly had power cars 43086 and 43087. A week later, the return trip was in a set that was (as I recall) mixed-up both power car and trailer-wise. 

Both trips were on the "Flying Scotsman" service that passed through the centre roads at York non-stop. The only booked call was at Newcastle.

[Classsix T]

I'm probably missing the bleeding obvious, but how come the low numbered power-car is even numbered?

 

Ah, the series started at 43002 didn't it? Was there a "hole" in TOPS that included the prototype pair?

 

C6T.

[45125]

I'm probably missing the bleeding obvious, but how come the low numbered power-car is even numbered?

 

Ah, the series started at 43002 didn't it? Was there a "hole" in TOPS that included the prototype pair?

 

C6T.

 

43000 43001 been 252001.

[stewartingram]

Originally the prototypes (class 41) were 41001 & 41002. They were renumbered to 43000 & 43001.

 

Stewart

[Bomag]

As locos they started at 1 (presumably due to TOPS). As DMUs they could start at zero.

[EddieK]

As locos they started at 1 (presumably due to TOPS). As DMUs they could start at zero.

But on TOPS they started at 1. 253001, 254001 etc.

[EddieK]

Allocation history book list Lot 30895 as 43056 - 43119 with spare cars 43120 - 43123. 43120 and 121 were originally destined to be 43062 and 43063 but were numbered 120 and 121 out of sequence and sent to WR as spare power cars. 43122 and 43123 were shown as Eastern Region spare cars.

 

43056 - 43119 gives 64 power cars, which matches something I found on Wikipedia listing ECML sets as 254 001 to 254032. So, it is possible to work out which set had which (planned) power cars in sequence from 56 and 57 in 254001.

 

Somewhere I think I have a Platform 5 book or similar from the late 1970s that listed all the constituent vehicles in each HST set, though with the caveat that some of the sets were planned and had not been delivered, and noting that the Government may have reduced BR's projected fleet size. The allocation of catering cars was also fluid as the fleet entered service.

[keefer]

Modern Railways Pictorial Profile issue 1 (Marsden/Ian Allan) covered the HSTs, iirc original formations were listed and possibly those from the big reorganisation in the early '80s

[Bomag]

But on TOPS they started at 1. 253001, 254001 etc.

 

AFAIR sets were on TOPS in the 70's; the vehicles were not added until the early 1980, which is why both coaching stock and unit vehicles were subjet to renumbering to avoid clashes. From a discusion with out local TOPS bod in the RCE (he did the reportable departmentals e.g. tampers) they had updated the system to cope with leading zeros.

[EddieK]

AFAIR sets were on TOPS in the 70's; the vehicles were not added until the early 1980, which is why both coaching stock and unit vehicles were subjet to renumbering to avoid clashes. From a discusion with out local TOPS bod in the RCE (he did the reportable departmentals e.g. tampers) they had updated the system to cope with leading zeros.

That figures (pardon the pun). So a Class 253 or 254 was on TOPS as a complete unit, but the power cars and trailers might not have been. It was early 1983 when DMU vehicles in the 50xxx range became 53xxx and the 56xxx became 54xxx. At that time also various Mark 1s got renumbered. 

By the early 1990s, if not before, coaching stock sets were on TOPS or POIS as for example WB10 (to use one I looked after). When push-pull working came, a set of coaches would keep the same loco all day (in theory) and I think somehow the loco became part of the set for the day. Likewise, when I worked at GNER, each set (HST and Mark 4) had a set identity (EC55 or BN29 for example) and the power cars or class 91 became part of the set.

[jim.snowdon]

That figures (pardon the pun). So a Class 253 or 254 was on TOPS as a complete unit, but the power cars and trailers might not have been. It was early 1983 when DMU vehicles in the 50xxx range became 53xxx and the 56xxx became 54xxx. At that time also various Mark 1s got renumbered. 

By the early 1990s, if not before, coaching stock sets were on TOPS or POIS as for example WB10 (to use one I looked after). When push-pull working came, a set of coaches would keep the same loco all day (in theory) and I think somehow the loco became part of the set for the day. Likewise, when I worked at GNER, each set (HST and Mark 4) had a set identity (EC55 or BN29 for example) and the power cars or class 91 became part of the set.

My recollection of the HSTs was that it did not take all that long for the power cars became mixed up between the sets, with the result that the painted 25x numbers on each end were frequently different. On rare occasions it was possible to see the two power cars from the same set standing side by side (I have a picture of a such a pair somewhere in my archives). That was before BR saw the light and gave up on numbering them as diesel-electric multiple units in the 2xx series, treating them as sets made up from two locomotives sandwiching a (notionally) fixed rake of carriages.

 

Jim

[EddieK]

My recollection of the HSTs was that it did not take all that long for the power cars became mixed up between the sets, with the result that the painted 25x numbers on each end were frequently different. On rare occasions it was possible to see the two power cars from the same set standing side by side (I have a picture of a such a pair somewhere in my archives). That was before BR saw the light and gave up on numbering them as diesel-electric multiple units in the 2xx series, treating them as sets made up from two locomotives sandwiching a (notionally) fixed rake of carriages.

 

Jim

Jim,

Indeed. My observation on post number 5 above was that my HST upon returning from Edinburgh was mixed-up. It does not surprise me that you have a picture of two supposedly opposite end cars side by side.....

[jonny777]

@jonny

 

Colin J. Marsden's 2001 book 'HST Silver Jubilee' lists all the HST power cars against their original set numbers.

As 45125 has said, you could work out the ER pairs from the starting point he has mentioned, but if you would like to double check those or any others I would be happy to look them up.

 

Cheers

Trevor

 

 

 

Thanks for the offer Trevor, but I just wrote them all out starting with 56 and 57.

 

I was hoping that somewhere on the internet there might be a webpage devoted to the subject of formations and someone would have a link, but it seems that no one has tackled this rather complex subject online.