Shapeways Price Change (Increase)

[Knuckles]

Id be weary of that. It might be considered fraud to claim an item is worth double. While your logic is sound, I see it backfiring if someone filing a theoretical insurance claim catches onto the stated values.

I know for ebay if you choose to insure it through their online payment portal, you cant claim it more than the final list price. How fees and shipping costs are calculated in that Im not sure.

 

Ok. But there is no fraud here and I'm not on about ebay just petsonal stuff I sell once in a blue moon.

 

Plus if stated value is £100 and someone paid £50 for it then they got no reason to moan.

 

When the post person asks how much the item is worth in the box I tell them what it is worth to me. It's my item I'm posting and if it gets lost it is worth more than the item itself and raw materials, especially if it is something I have made. Again, I decide the worth, that's why they ask you what it is worth, not what you are selling it for.

 

If for example I made something and it cost me £50 for materials and I put it together and decided I wanted to sell it for £100 that's up to me to decide that worth, I might sell it for £125.

 

If I sell it for £100 and the other person robs it sayijg it never arrived when it did or the postman robs it or it is crushed the insurance needs to cover the cost of the item PLUS the cost someone spent in order for me to give them their money back without me making a loss on two counts, the model (no re-sale sinse it's lost) plus the customers money return. Thus if I sell it for £100 thrn UNTIL I know it is safe in their hands it is worth £200 to me, and again, I decide the value and how much insurance I pay to cover said value. Post service doesn't need to know I am selling the item, it's non of their business.

 

If I pay for extra insurance, say cover for £500 for example then I'm entitled to the value that I'm entitled to ascribe being restored if the post service fails, that's what is being paid for. Personal protection.

 

To not do this means I will be a victum of fraud by the system if anything happens because not only will I loose the item but I'll also loose whatever someone paid for it when I refund them meaning I'll be grossely worse off than if I never sold the item in the first place.

 

There is nothing shady or dodgy going on, you are asked how much insurance you want to pay and how much the item is worth and value paid to cover. You get to decide the worth, no one else.

 

Guess many never thought all this through. Should be obvious.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Knuckles

[rue_d_etropal]

My comments, and business plan (?) have been based on what has actually happened to a least one well known model maker/trader. It actually caused quite a stir and upset a few people at the time. I won't say more as  don't want to reopen wounds, but quite often read threads commenting(possible correctly, but often incorrectly) on experiences dealing with model makers/traders , online. There are a lot of potential problems, and some hoops to jump through, especially relating to do business overseas. For the USA issues, search for thread about Cambrian models from the old owner, as I don't know the position with new owner.

[m0rris]

Shapeways are still continuing to tweak all the pricing algorithms for the detailed plastics and some of my products having recently gone down are now higher than ever, one to watch out for. I've decided to take a step back for a while and see where they end up, giving how many times they've changed their mind it seems fairly clear that they haven't got a strategy on this one so it's not worth planning until the dust has settled...

[Spitfire2865]

Shapeways are still continuing to tweak all the pricing algorithms for the detailed plastics and some of my products having recently gone down are now higher than ever, one to watch out for. I've decided to take a step back for a while and see where they end up, giving how many times they've changed their mind it seems fairly clear that they haven't got a strategy on this one so it's not worth planning until the dust has settled...

IF the dust settles.

[rue_d_etropal]

I wonder if the dust has now settled.

As the deadline approaches for all new prices, I have been looking at my older designs, as they tend to be within the capture aea for changes due to minmum  prices. I also thought it might be a good time to look at finer plastic options. Normally if asked I just add the option, but If I have a design in a bigger scale(eg O scale), then I can use that to create a 4mm scale version , thinner plastic, fixing any possible problems(eg rod thickness). I have just done this for a couple of coaches and the price is a lot lower than expected, not much more than the basic nylon version. Only reason can be that the new pricing takes more account of material used, and this goes down a lot if I thin it down. Just to double check I tried adding the fine plastic option to original coach design,and that was a lot more expensive.

So it is something to think about. I tend to take my designs right down to minimum thickness limits. That might not be desirable for every design, as it could weaken some a lot, but I will look at others to see what difference it makes.

[Spiritofprogress]

Just did a check on a previous order a couple of months ago. It cost $100 AUD now if I print it it costs $338 AUD WTF! Enough Shapeways you have shot the golden goose. I will explore China now as a mate has good results that were cheaper than my old price of $100 AUD. Cant wait for my new Phrozen big printer arrives next year. Cant see the point of using Shapeways for most products anymore.

[Rods_of_Revolution]

It seems that there has been an issue with the new pricing implementation on FUD, so they have currently postponed the rollout for FUD. It did seem odd to me that I had 300% increase on some models.

 

https://www.shapeways.com/forum/t/grandfathered-pricing-wind-down-details.98455/

 

[rue_d_etropal]

I thought the changes for WSF were still meant to be going through, but just checked on some of my items and prices have not gone up yet?

[Spitfire2865]

Ive given up on Shapeways.  Its clear theyre on a path of self destruction.  Quite worrying that it required the communitys input (without access pricing algorithms) to raise doubts of the effectiveness of the new pricing systems.  The company refuses to run tests themselves in closed environments and is using the company and its users as guinea pigs.  

Id hope they can fix the company and continue into the future, but at this point its not looking likely. 

[Knuckles]

Is why I brought a resin 3D printer.

 

I still want Shapeways to work and for sales to happen so my intent is to suppliment, not replace.

 

But yes, faith it its future for me is currently low which is why I've took steps to transition.

 

They mess us about too much.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Knuckles

[AndyID]

It's unfortunate that Shapeways keeps changing its pricing but I doubt they really have much choice. They have to be profitable to stay in business. It's possible their current business model is not really viable but it's probably better to keep adjusting prices rather than disappear altogether.

[Rods_of_Revolution]

9 minutes ago, AndyID said:

It's unfortunate that Shapeways keeps changing its pricing but I doubt they really have much choice. They have to be profitable to stay in business. It's possible their current business model is not really viable but it's probably better to keep adjusting prices rather than disappear altogether.

 

3D Printing is becoming more and more popular, Shapeways has grown massively because of it, so where are the economies of scale? Why's 3D printing getting more and more expensive at Shapeways? People are trying to run businesses through Shapeways, a fact that's fundemental to Shapeways' business plan, yet Shapeways keep moving the goal posts with little explanation.

 

When I started using Shapeways, about 10 or so years ago, the service was much better, the prices were much better and the overall experience was much better. The models were checked by people with experience of 3D printing rather than a computer program and someone with no practical experience in 3D printing. When they made the move from more experienced people checking models, I ended up with models which had previously been printed and shipped 20-30 times being rejected because a wall was now apparently "too thin". The result was I had to redesign a lot of them, in some instances making them structurally weaker overall in order to get the automated checks to allow me to order it.

 

There have also been several price changes, which is fine unless, like this recent hike, it effectively prices the models out of the market. As it stands with my FUD models, I have no idea if the increases are correct or anomalies, Shapeways won't say what the error in their calculation with FUD is. So I'll have to wait and see.

 

I'm pretty much at the end of my tether with Shapeways.

[Phil Parker]

Are there economies of scale with 3D printing?

 

If more machines are made then there should be some economy there, they might get a bit cheaper but we're not talking about anyone making large numbers of the high-end machines Shapeways use so I can't see much of this being passed on. 

 

You might also buy print material in larger quantities, but again, I doubt Shapeways were buying small amounts anyway.

[AndyID]

28 minutes ago, Rods_of_Revolution said:

 

3D Printing is becoming more and more popular, Shapeways has grown massively because of it, so where are the economies of scale? Why's 3D printing getting more and more expensive at Shapeways? People are trying to run businesses through Shapeways, a fact that's fundemental to Shapeways' business plan, yet Shapeways keep moving the goal posts with little explanation.

 

When I started using Shapeways, about 10 or so years ago, the service was much better, the prices were much better and the overall experience was much better. The models were checked by people with experience of 3D printing rather than a computer program and someone with no practical experience in 3D printing. When they made the move from more experienced people checking models, I ended up with models which had previously been printed and shipped 20-30 times being rejected because a wall was now apparently "too thin". The result was I had to redesign a lot of them, in some instances making them structurally weaker overall in order to get the automated checks to allow me to order it.

 

There have also been several price changes, which is fine unless, like this recent hike, it effectively prices the models out of the market. As it stands with my FUD models, I have no idea if the increases are correct or anomalies, Shapeways won't say what the error in their calculation with FUD is. So I'll have to wait and see.

 

I'm pretty much at the end of my tether with Shapeways.

 

I don't blame you. As Shapeways is not a public company it's impossible to know if they are profitable or not but I suspect they were never really profitable in the past and now the private investors are putting their feet down. As you say that might mean some products will be priced out of the market.

 

If it's simple to make a 3D printing service profitable Shapeways should have some serious competition but I don't believe it has. I think what we are experiencing is a transition from start-up mode to viable corporation. I hope Shapeways manages to get through that but they are obviously struggling a lot.

Edited February 5, 2019 by AndyID
missing word

[Knuckles]

Yeah that's basically what is happening.  They already said in the forum threads they locked that they were running too cheap to begin with to get their foot in the door and that they need to up their prices to stay in the game.  They also basically said that us smaller guys, now we have helped them get rich, can sod off quietly.

 

You know, usual exploitive corporate crap.

 

Spade spade.

 

 

Edit: My resin items are cheaper than their FUD by over 50% in most cases.  If I can do it so can they, overheads or not.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Knuckles

[AndyID]

18 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

Yeah that's basically what is happening.  They already said in the forum threads they locked that they were running too cheap to begin with to get their foot in the door and that they need to up their prices to stay in the game.  They also basically said that us smaller guys, now we have helped them get rich, can sod off quietly.

 

You know, usual exploitive corporate crap.

 

Spade spade.

 

 

Edit: My resin items are cheaper than their FUD by over 50% in most cases.  If I can do it so can they, overheads or not.

 

Set up a company and compete with them. Before you know it you'll be a millionaire

[Knuckles]

Give me several thousand pounds and I might be able.

 

I'm trying to in effect anyway.

[m0rris]

45 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

Yeah that's basically what is happening.  They already said in the forum threads they locked that they were running too cheap to begin with to get their foot in the door and that they need to up their prices to stay in the game.  They also basically said that us smaller guys, now we have helped them get rich, can sod off quietly.

 

You know, usual exploitive corporate crap.

 

Spade spade.

 

Edit: My resin items are cheaper than their FUD by over 50% in most cases.  If I can do it so can they, overheads or not.

It is a business going in a very strange direction - they seemingly want to move away from their unique selling point of the marketplace and focus on bulk printing/prototyping. Unfortunately though, their quality isn't consistently there and the price point is now disproportionately high compared to similar products from their rivals.

 

So far the new pricing model has nocked a grand total of 3% of the worst affected models - still pales in comparison to the 25% rise across the board under the new model.

[jonhall]

On 31/10/2018 at 16:39, Quarryscapes said:

Can Safely say my 16mm Wagons are now totally dead in the water - £22 for 4 axleboxes. £54 for 4 axleboxes and wooden slab bearers from my FR Slab Wagon! 

 

Then print a a few sets and send them off to a whitemetal caster, who will churn out  a few hundred at a few p each, and sell them at a price that  covers the direct cost of the  whitemetal, plus a  decent chunk of the setup cost. 

 

Jon

[Knuckles]

19 minutes ago, m0rris said:

It is a business going in a very strange direction - they seemingly want to move away from their unique selling point of the marketplace and focus on bulk printing/prototyping. Unfortunately though, their quality isn't consistently there and the price point is now disproportionately high compared to similar products from their rivals.

 

So far the new pricing model has nocked a grand total of 3% of the worst affected models - still pales in comparison to the 25% rise across the board under the new model.

 

They have their artillery pointing towards the ground.

No doubt their strategic officers are smoking banana skins while they are at it.

[jonhall]

2 hours ago, Knuckles said:

Yeah that's basically what is happening.  They already said in the forum threads they locked that they were running too cheap to begin with to get their foot in the door and that they need to up their prices to stay in the game.  They also basically said that us smaller guys, now we have helped them get rich, can sod off quietly.

 

You know, usual exploitive corporate crap.

 

Spade spade.

 

 

Edit: My resin items are cheaper than their FUD by over 50% in most cases.  If I can do it so can they, overheads or not.

 

Cost including NI, tax, Pensions, Rent, Rates, R&D, Marketing, shipping and all the other stuff???

 

I was under the impression that Shapeways was a 'skunk works' for one of the big technology companies (Phillips rings a bell) and part of the exercise was to learn what people want to print, and how to commercialise it.  

 

Shapeways isn't the only big company that dosn't make any money - you don't believe that you are actually covering Uber's costs when you get in one of thier taxi's?

 

Jon

[Phil Parker]

48 minutes ago, jonhall said:

 

Then print a a few sets and send them off to a whitemetal caster, who will churn out  a few hundred at a few p each, and sell them at a price that  covers the direct cost of the  whitemetal, plus a  decent chunk of the setup cost. 

 

Jon

 

Or just set yourself with some kitchen table resin casting gear from Tarrantis. 40 quid would have you producing axles boxes and other bits for pennies. 

[rue_d_etropal]

I find there is too much negativity , and best to see positive side to Shapeways. Dig out the aticle Chris Ward did  few years ago when he started doing models by 3D printing. He said it was not possile to build a viable business , using 3D printing in same way traditional production methods do. It still takes too log to produce a model, and then you have to sell it package it and get it to the customer. With the Shapeways business model, you only hae to designthe model, and publicise it. Shapeways handle everything else. Trying to do everything that Shapeways do is not possible for one person, certaily if you want to do other things, take a holday or cope with being ill. 

When I started 5 years ago it was not that easy to get designs onto Shapeways, certainly not easy to update them, unles I was missing simething. Now updating is easy, an usually orks. Not perfect but better than it was before. Forget using their search engine. The database is too big and really need totally redesigning, something I would not recommend given some of the problems that have happened.

[jonhall]

9 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Or just set yourself with some kitchen table resin casting gear from Tarrantis. 40 quid would have you producing axles boxes and other bits for pennies. 

 

Well quite, but I prefer my resin from Notcutts/Polytek, and I'm assuming that one of the attractions of Shapeways as a 'retailer' was that they took care of the manufacture for you. When you move from sub-contracted prototype/production/shipping, to bringing any of that 'in house' you also need to factor in quality and the cost of your time. 

 

When I did my Cargowaggon twin van kit I chose to sub-contract my resin bodyshell out, chose to 3d print masters (thanks Martin) and send them for whitemetal casting, and send my etches out as well, that only left me to receive the various sub-components and put them in a box and sell them.

 

A drawback of that approach was that I had to lay out a 4 figure sum to buy all the bits from my sub-suppliers to get to the point where I could sell the first one, but having done that the unit cost was MUCH lower than an all shapeways product, and therefore the margin could be bigger without it being 'unaffordable'. 

 

Jon

 

 

 

[Phil Parker]

If you outsource everything, you are at the whim of the people you outsource to. You can't have your cake and eat it. 

 

The reality for a lot of people trying to make a business out of 3D printing is that one day they need to take a look at ALL the costs involved. At the moment, it's possible to draw up stuff, pop it on Shapeways without even seeing a printed version (not all do this, but we know many do)  and claim to be a "manufacturer". Easy if you don't factor in costs such as your time, equipment (computer), insurance, tax etc.

 

Shapeways sound like they are trying to take the business to a sound commercial footing.  If they are losing money so far then it's either put up the prices or go bust, neither of which is helpful to the guy relying on them working cheaply to keep the prices down.

 

40 minutes ago, jonhall said:

A drawback of that approach was that I had to lay out a 4 figure sum to buy all the bits from my sub-suppliers to get to the point where I could sell the first one, but having done that the unit cost was MUCH lower than an all shapeways product, and therefore the margin could be bigger without it being 'unaffordable'. 

 

Surely this is what running a business is all about? It's also what separates you from the "bung it on Shapeways without making a print" guys. Those who have the guts to make the move will be the ones who become successful.