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Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie


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16 hours ago, Coppercap said:

I'm not convinced about the splayed front footsteps being a good idea though. 

Agree - think I'd prefer the usual steps as part of the accessory bag for the user to fit if curves permit than factory fitted 'on the wonk' :)

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Looks like the GWR liveried 4154 is next up, with some retailers saying within the next 14 days. Half thought it was due later in the year, so pleasantly surprised as this is the one I've been waiting for.

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14 hours ago, Markn said:

Looks like the GWR liveried 4154 is next up, with some retailers saying within the next 14 days. Half thought it was due later in the year, so pleasantly surprised as this is the one I've been waiting for.

 
Interesting,though caution here.Chris Trerise on Kernow’s Facebook page who is a usually reliable source of information does not give it a mention.Hornby’s own website doesn’t include it ,though that in itself is of no consequence as it’s exactly  the opposite.  Do they ever really know what comes out of a container until it’s opened ? 

 

 

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On 08/07/2020 at 08:34, Coppercap said:

 

I too want to address the same problem, but haven't even ventured as far as removing the body yet. It's got to be done though. 

I'm not convinced about the splayed front footsteps being a good idea though. 

Well tonight I looked at my Prairie and even took a before photo. On closer inspection it looked like the fit of the plastic cylinders was too tight on the metal frame and was causing some distortion when mounted. I removed a little material with a file on the plastic cylinder assembly until it sat much more cleanly.

 

not sure if you can see much difference in my before/afters

C991D2DE-4B95-442A-8FE3-05722F21A119.jpeg

4050819A-0DC7-403E-8D23-7891F7C07314.jpeg

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2 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
Interesting,though caution here.Chris Trerise on Kernow’s Facebook page who is a usually reliable source of information does not give it a mention.Hornby’s own website doesn’t include it ,though that in itself is of no consequence as it’s exactly  the opposite.  Do they ever really know what comes out of a container until it’s opened ? 

 

 

This morning, Rails have posted that Hornby have advised them that the GWR version will be released in the next couple of weeks

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After much satifactory running in I started running some more complex operations e.g. running slowly through complex pointwork and reverse curves and found the loco was occasionally erratic so I had another look at the wipers and noticed that at the extremes of side to side wheel movement they still just lost contact.

So I took the keeper plate off and did a proper tweak of the wipers to get them all to apply pressure to the wheelbacks.

Result, much improved running through point work, even at very slow speeds

Another thing I noticed is the front pony hasn't really enough up/down movement and on any track imperfections (I've a couple of unwanted dips) can lift clear of the rail.

 

A nice feature is the axles run in brass bushes in the chassis, the axle looks like 2mm.

 

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My black Prairie arrived today, just three weeks after leaving Cornwall. In present circumstances that's not bad.

 

Everything is present and correct, fortunately, as there have been reports here of damage/distortion/missing bits. The centre drivers have a back-to-back of over 14.6mm so I'll try to squeeze them in a bit. All the other wheels are OK. As others have said, there is very little vertical movement on the two pony trucks. It should be OK on the flat but I'll have to see in due course how it goes on a convex vertical curve.

 

I ran the loco in tonight on the rolling road. It runs quietly and controllably over the full speed range but there is a distinct side-to-side wobble at the front end when running forwards. Has anyone experienced this? I'll take the lid off tomorrow and see if there's any obvious misalignment anywhere, but it's a bit disappointing at the moment. If I can't fix it then I think the loco might have to go back.

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11 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

My black Prairie arrived today, just three weeks after leaving Cornwall. In present circumstances that's not bad.

 

Everything is present and correct, fortunately, as there have been reports here of damage/distortion/missing bits. The centre drivers have a back-to-back of over 14.6mm so I'll try to squeeze them in a bit. All the other wheels are OK. As others have said, there is very little vertical movement on the two pony trucks. It should be OK on the flat but I'll have to see in due course how it goes on a convex vertical curve.

 

I ran the loco in tonight on the rolling road. It runs quietly and controllably over the full speed range but there is a distinct side-to-side wobble at the front end when running forwards. Has anyone experienced this? I'll take the lid off tomorrow and see if there's any obvious misalignment anywhere, but it's a bit disappointing at the moment. If I can't fix it then I think the loco might have to go back.

 

Sorry to hear this John and I hope you can sort the problem. 

 

Apart from an initial hesitancy for, literally a few seconds out of the box mine runs perfectly. I was only thinking last night that it is one of the quietest and smoothest RTR models I own and if this is typical of the 'new Hornby' then I'm all for it.

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I got my replacement 6110 yesterday after the first arrived badly twisted (see above).

 

Pickup wipers are all well adjusted, making contact with the drivers in all positions. Slidebars are drooping. Back-to-backs seem to be fine but the pony wheels are possibly a bit wide.

 

The front pony jumps off the track at one particular place every time. It's a joint between boards just after a curve and while the alignment of the rails is not perfect no other loco I've ever run over it has derailed at that place so this does seem to be a peculiarity of this loco. I think a light spring between pony and chassis might help.

 

I'm convinced that the firebox top should be a much flatter curve.

 

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11 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

The front pony jumps off the track at one particular place every time. It's a joint between boards just after a curve and while the alignment of the rails is not perfect no other loco I've ever run over it has derailed at that place so this does seem to be a peculiarity of this loco. I think a light spring between pony and chassis might help.

 

I don't think a spring would help much as the pony wheels only have minimal downward movement.

Mine doesn't like a small dip where the baseboard (10mm ply) was warped downward slightly, taking the track with it.

As the loco enters the dip the pony wheels leave the rail.

Temporary cure: slacken the fixing screw slightly. (it might work loose in use however)

Permanent cure: small thin washer to stop the fixing screw from "clamping" the pony quite so much (or more drastically, remove some metal from the pony casting)

 

Another place where it jumps off and I can't see a reason is a Peco large radius code 75 point.

Going through the turn, it takes it within it's stride at unrealistically high speeds, going straight, it jumps off at anything more than a modest speed.

 

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1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

I got my replacement 6110 yesterday after the first arrived badly twisted (see above).

 

Pickup wipers are all well adjusted, making contact with the drivers in all positions. Slidebars are drooping. Back-to-backs seem to be fine but the pony wheels are possibly a bit wide.

 

The front pony jumps off the track at one particular place every time. It's a joint between boards just after a curve and while the alignment of the rails is not perfect no other loco I've ever run over it has derailed at that place so this does seem to be a peculiarity of this loco. I think a light spring between pony and chassis might help.

 

I'm convinced that the firebox top should be a much flatter curve.

 


I was looking forward to getting my hand on one of these but I’m not so sure now

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On 10/07/2020 at 22:04, St Enodoc said:

My black Prairie arrived today, just three weeks after leaving Cornwall. In present circumstances that's not bad.

 

Everything is present and correct, fortunately, as there have been reports here of damage/distortion/missing bits. The centre drivers have a back-to-back of over 14.6mm so I'll try to squeeze them in a bit. All the other wheels are OK. As others have said, there is very little vertical movement on the two pony trucks. It should be OK on the flat but I'll have to see in due course how it goes on a convex vertical curve.

 

I ran the loco in tonight on the rolling road. It runs quietly and controllably over the full speed range but there is a distinct side-to-side wobble at the front end when running forwards. Has anyone experienced this? I'll take the lid off tomorrow and see if there's any obvious misalignment anywhere, but it's a bit disappointing at the moment. If I can't fix it then I think the loco might have to go back.

 

23 hours ago, Harlequin said:

The front pony jumps off the track at one particular place every time. It's a joint between boards just after a curve and while the alignment of the rails is not perfect no other loco I've ever run over it has derailed at that place so this does seem to be a peculiarity of this loco.

 

22 hours ago, melmerby said:

Temporary cure: slacken the fixing screw slightly. (it might work loose in use however)

Permanent cure: small thin washer to stop the fixing screw from "clamping" the pony quite so much (or more drastically, remove some metal from the pony casting)

I had a good look at my Prairie last night. I adjusted the back-to-backs then had a close look at the loco on the rolling road. There was nothing obviously wrong and no clear reason for the wobble, other than rather a lot of side play on all the wheels. This, coupled with the wheel profile that appears to have very little conicity and the very flat profile of the rolling road rollers, means that hunting is almost inevitable.

 

I therefore tried the loco on the layout today, with a temporary DC feed. It behaved much better, especially when hauling a train. Some wobble was still there but not as much as on the rolling road and at moderate speeds it was barely noticeable.

 

So, I've decided not to send it back and will carry on with chipping, renumbering, new couplings and so on. I think I'll also restrict the side play on the front and rear drivers a little. If I can find any, I'll use the old trick of Peco fibre washers with a slit cut in them so that they can be forced over the axles. If not, the same arrangement with bits of styrene will do.

 

Regarding the lack of vertical movement on the pony trucks, the rear one seems OK but the front one needs more play. The easiest way to do this will be with a slightly longer M2 screw and washer.

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I simply filed the pony casting down where it sits over the mounting post to give it bit more play. That means I can use the original capture screw, tightened up and no need for a washer.

 

I fitted a spring and the loco now traverses the problem joint OK but the spring is too strong and lifts the front drivers very slightly. I need to done some fine tuning.

 

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20 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

 

 

I had a good look at my Prairie last night. I adjusted the back-to-backs then had a close look at the loco on the rolling road. There was nothing obviously wrong and no clear reason for the wobble, other than rather a lot of side play on all the wheels. This, coupled with the wheel profile that appears to have very little conicity and the very flat profile of the rolling road rollers, means that hunting is almost inevitable.

 

I therefore tried the loco on the layout today, with a temporary DC feed. It behaved much better, especially when hauling a train. Some wobble was still there but not as much as on the rolling road and at moderate speeds it was barely noticeable.

 

So, I've decided not to send it back and will carry on with chipping, renumbering, new couplings and so on. I think I'll also restrict the side play on the front and rear drivers a little. If I can find any, I'll use the old trick of Peco fibre washers with a slit cut in them so that they can be forced over the axles. If not, the same arrangement with bits of styrene will do.

 

Regarding the lack of vertical movement on the pony trucks, the rear one seems OK but the front one needs more play. The easiest way to do this will be with a slightly longer M2 screw and washer.

 

In terms of sideplay, may I possibly  suggest utilising the spring 'C' washer remedy, as per the Heljan D95xx? My angle is that you can possibly install the washer without recourse to stripping down the chassis, by using a fine jewellers long-nosed pliers. 

 

There is an excellent You Tube video which covers a similar problem, and the remedy. Kudos to the original poster.

 

Happy modelling,

Ian.

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27 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

In terms of sideplay, may I possibly  suggest utilising the spring 'C' washer remedy, as per the Heljan D95xx? My angle is that you can possibly install the washer without recourse to stripping down the chassis, by using a fine jewellers long-nosed pliers. 

 

There is an excellent You Tube video which covers a similar problem, and the remedy. Kudos to the original poster.

 

Happy modelling,

Ian.

Thanks Ian. I think that's the same method. You cut a slit in the fibre/styrene washer and twist it so it goes over the axle without having to dismantle the wheelset.

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1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

I simply filed the pony casting down where it sits over the mounting post to give it bit more play. That means I can use the original capture screw, tightened up and no need for a washer.

 

I fitted a spring and the loco now traverses the problem joint OK but the spring is too strong and lifts the front drivers very slightly. I need to done some fine tuning.

 

My original idea of slackening the screw works but it does drop out after a while.

I ended up wrapping one turn of fine wire around the screw, which enables it to tighten onto it's mounting post but leaves a little more play on the pony truck vertical movement.

It has done the job. Stays on the track at any speed.

The problem with the Peco large turnout is the switch rail isn't hard against the stock rail and the prairie's (and only the prairie!) pony wheel manages to split them.

More pressure against the stock rail cures it.

 

 

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Re: Front pony truck.

 

I was going to add a small amount of weight into the redundant coupler pocket at the front. On the basis it will play down on the wheels and should be sufficient to keep it on the track.

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23 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Re: Front pony truck.

 

I was going to add a small amount of weight into the redundant coupler pocket at the front. On the basis it will play down on the wheels and should be sufficient to keep it on the track.

Not sure what you mean by that.:scratchhead:

They spent 50% of their time going backwards, so need a front coupling.:yes:

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2 hours ago, melmerby said:

They spent 50% of their time going backwards, 

 

Not necessarily, especially on main line work. If there was an opportunity to turn, the crew would in order to avoid dust from the bunker being blown in there faces and constant use of the slacking hose.

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A quick update on my 51.

 

After a good deal of running I found it hesitating on certain points. A quick examination revealed the rear pick-ups in need of adjustment. While I was in there I gave them all a tweak. Also, as others have done I thinned down the front pony pivot area because the screw was clamping the truck and so coming loose.

 

Much better now, Still hesitating on one point in the fiddle yard at slow speeds but I'll live with this for now.

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21 minutes ago, TrevorP1 said:

 

Not necessarily, especially on main line work. If there was an opportunity to turn, the crew would in order to avoid dust from the bunker being blown in there faces and constant use of the slacking hose.

I would guess most of those in the Birmingham division would go backwards as much as forwards

Those using Moor Street, certainly would as they weren't turned between turns.

 

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4 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Re: Front pony truck.

 

I was going to add a small amount of weight into the redundant coupler pocket at the front. On the basis it will play down on the wheels and should be sufficient to keep it on the track.

 

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

 

They spent 50% of their time going backwards, so need a front coupling.:yes:

Edited 3 hours ago by melmerby

They don't need a coupling in the NEM pocket if Neal is using scale couplings, or runs trains in fixed rakes that do not change direction.  It is true that crews preferred running smokebox first and turned locos if they could, but as well as the Moor Street workings mentioned, balanced by the Snow Hill workings to the bay platforms in the opposite direction, the normal method of working in the South Wales Valleys, another 5101 stomping ground, was smokebox first up the valley and bunker first down, in order to ensure that the boiler water level covered the fusible plug on the gradients, some of which were very long, typically varying in steepness but continual from Cardiff Queen St (for example) to Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr, or Rhymney (period spelling).  The Newport and Bridgend Valleys were similar, and this method of working was a distinct assistance to the fireman in keeping water level up to the mark.

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Must admit my 61xx has a bit of wobble on the rolling road. But then again so did the Heljan Dock Tanks.

It does disappear on track though, with the tiniest wobble on the front end. It looks to eminate from the centre driving axle.

Almost prototypical of the small Prairies. They do seem to lean into their stride and rock from side to side and hunt left to right when starting away.

 

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2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

They don't need a coupling in the NEM pocket if Neal is using scale couplings, or runs trains in fixed rakes that do not change direction.  It is true that crews preferred running smokebox first and turned locos if they could, but as well as the Moor Street workings mentioned, balanced by the Snow Hill workings to the bay platforms in the opposite direction, the normal method of working in the South Wales Valleys, another 5101 stomping ground, was smokebox first up the valley and bunker first down, in order to ensure that the boiler water level covered the fusible plug on the gradients, some of which were very long, typically varying in steepness but continual from Cardiff Queen St (for example) to Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr, or Rhymney (period spelling).  The Newport and Bridgend Valleys were similar, and this method of working was a distinct assistance to the fireman in keeping water level up to the mark.

 
Apologies for the pedantry ( but total support for the spelling ) ,the appearances of the class at Aberdare were on the High Level  Vale of Neath line .Cannot ever remember them between Low Level ( ex TV ) and Abercynon which was the province of 64XX auto train, 56XX and ex TV A class.

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4 hours ago, melmerby said:

I would guess most of those in the Birmingham division would go backwards as much as forwards

Those using Moor Street, certainly would as they weren't turned between turns.

 


 

I thought I’d take a look at Warwickshire railways.  Searching for 51xx seems to show the majority of pictures with the locos running smokebox first.  There are some, eg https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrw376.htmm running bunker first but I’d say the majority of shots show the locos the other way round.  Now it might be that photographers favoured smokebox first shots but who knows?

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