Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie

[gwrrob]

23 hours ago, gwrrob said:

 

That’s good news, any chance of a few photos please.

 

Thanks, I misunderstood as you said you had the GWR version.

[melmerby]

20 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Crews are another of my soap boxes; I would like to see cab roofs of RTR tank locos (and some diesel and electric as well) that can be easily removed so that crew insertion can be accomplished without a degree in gynaecology or the services of lock picker.  Magnetic attachment, clip on, or light glueing would be fine.

Another thing I have found is that quite often the floor is too high, meaning the crew are too high.

I've got some whitemetal kits where a standard size driver is too high for the regulator

[DKGL]

So I went the route of cutting part of the floor. Crew now fitted.

 

 

Only needed a small section of floor removed. Driver fitted to lip in front with Fireman glued to thin perspex behind.

En route to Brislington

 

[Neal Ball]

I have added a video of 6109 at Henley on Thames, having just fitted a You Choos sound system.

 

I will add a “how to” blow by blow with photos over the next few days. It was a good install, although very fiddly.

 

The loco now runs like a dream........ Oh and haulage ability? 10 easily - mix of Hornby and Bachmann. I only stopped there as 1 carriage kept playing up. I reckon it will take 12 easily.....

[The Johnster]

Just seen one in the fleshplastic in Antics window in Cardiff; very nice indeed. 

[DCB]

Arrived from Kernow today. Just running in. Its very light, probably not even half as heavy as my old Wills 61XX and a lot lighter than the 10 year old or so Hornby which had traction tyres.

 Lovely detail, especially the firemans side bunker steps and the correct cut away to the bunker.  Make an excellent static model

[MartinTrucks]

Just a FYI/'Heads Up',

R3719 the G-W-R version No.4154 and its DCC-fitted equivalent are both available to buy direct from Hornby. The BR green version is still shown as 'pre-order'. 

 

Jadlam are advertising them for sale on eBay at 10% off RRP and free postage.  Rails and Derails are offering similar deals but do not show them as actually being in stock as I write.  Please feel free to search out the best deal for yourself.  'Brick and Mortar' model shops obviously need as much support as we can give just now.

 

Best regards - Keep well,

Martin  

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Arrived from Kernow today. Just running in. Its very light, probably not even half as heavy as my old Wills 61XX and a lot lighter than the 10 year old or so Hornby which had traction tyres.

 Lovely detail, especially the firemans side bunker steps and the correct cut away to the bunker.  Make an excellent static model

 

I have a 20 year old one and a 10 year old one, neither has traction tyres.*

It does however weigh a lot more than the new one

 

EDIT

R2098A (2000) 330g with wired in decoder

R3109 (about 2010) 332g with 8 pin decoder

R3721 (2020) 237g with 8 pin decoder

 

* and neither did the Airfix original

Correction, one on the nearside rear wheel

Edited July 26, 2020 by melmerby

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

* and neither did the Airfix original

That's not correct Keith. The Airfix model (circa 1978) had a single traction tyre on the left trailing driver, just like your photo.

[melmerby]

52 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

That's not correct Keith. The Airfix model (circa 1978) had a single traction tyre on the left trailing driver, just like your photo.

Hadn't spotted that.

Thanks for the correction.

[DCB]

I have worked on so many of the old prairies that I lost track but there are lots of ex Prairie grooved wheels in my scrap box.   The older Hornby has had its wheels changed I assumed it was to get rid of the traction tyres but it may never have had them,  I may have had the wheels off to bush the chassis to make it run acceptably. It now runs nicely if you ignore one one the wheels lifting off the track each revolution.   I think Airfix had two traction tyres, the Mainline (and early Hornby ?) probably had the one.

The new one is already a legend. Two  hours we spent looking for that crank pin.  It was running nicely bunker with 6 or 7 mainline 57 footers when Whump it landed on is side.  just by the loco depot in the hidden sidings.  There is about 7" headroom and the running lines are 18" in at this point When retrieved the crankpin was missing.  Plan A the magnet wagon was abandoned when we found the other pins were not magnetic.  So all the through lines were cleared and the Dapol Track Cleaner in vacuum cleaner mode was deployed.  It collected a lot of fluff.  So a search commenced.  I checked the visible part of the layout, George did the hidden part, the running line is  40 odd feet, about 18 of it hidden.   Finally after several false dawns George video'ed the hidden main lines with his smart phone and the pin was nestling between sleepers on the Down Main.  With precise details or where it was he was able to retrieve it.   That was around mid night so today we will be trying to effect a repair though it does look like a spacer has also disappeared.

May be back in the post on Monday...   Oh well there's still the Wills 61XX and Farish 81XX to rely on.

[Harlequin]

 

 

This is not a scientific test just another piece of info to add to the mix.

A random(ish) selection of 10 coaches. Outside curve is 26inch radius and is a bit lumpy in places. No wheelslip that I could see.

 

Edit: She can just haul 12 but there is definite wheelslip and she slows down when there are coaches fully around the curve and in the parallel straights on either side.

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Harlequin

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, DavidCBroad said:

I think Airfix had two traction tyres

Definitely only one.

[railroadbill]

56 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Definitely only one.

Agree, I've got one in bits, just had a look and just the left hand rear driving wheel has a traction tyre.

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

Definitely only one.

Agree also. The traction tyre displeased me but the central flangeless driving wheels (clearly shown in melmerby’s photograph) appalled me; they were well on the way out even then. Airfix corrected the driving wheels quite quickly and I was able to get a spare chassis and swap the tyred wheel with a good one from the old chassis.

[melmerby]

AFAIK the first Hornby version of the Prairie was R2098A (6147) which does not have traction tyres.

The chassis was reworked from the original to accommodate a large can motor driving through a gear tower to the middle driving axle.

The service sheet for the Prairie is dated Oct 2000.

http://www.hornbyguide.com/class_details.asp?classid=136

 

I have a R2098A which was submerged when I got flooded in May 2018.

It still works OK but could do with a proper servce.

[The Johnster]

I bought an Airfix/GMR GW liveried 61xx not long after the 2nd version with the flanged centre drivers came out, and very quickly repainted it as 4159, a Barry loco delivered new in 1948 in the transition unlined green Egyptian Serif 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' livery, which I considered justifiable given that the only visual differences between the 61xx and 5101 classes were that some 61xx carried London Transport tripcock gear, not represented on the Airfix 61xx anyway.  It was a poor runner until I removed the traction tyre, and still not a reliable very slow runner after that, and very noisy, sounded like a 37 with silencer issues.  I was running it with the naked grooved tyre, which everybody told me would be disastrous, but it never lead to any trouble except that visually I didn't want to see the groove and tended to run the loco with the rh side facing me.  

 

After some time, I acquired a s/h dead loco with stripped gears and a burned out motor, which I used as a wheel donor to replace the grooved wheel, and, as this was a lined black 6167, renumbered it 4162, another Barry loco, with red backed numberplates, and occasionally swapped bodies on the working chassis.  Over time there were other minor workings up; cast whitemetal buffers on 4159, a brass cab roof shutter on 4162, Springside fire iron, cab window glazing, real coal, and Gibson leading and trailing wheels to replace the solid backed Airfix ones.  Both bodies in those days had scale screw couplings.  The replacement of the grooved wheel increased tractive effort by about a coach, and I'd already packed as much ballast into the bodies as I could, this being standard practice for me.

 

Over time, the chassis ran itself in, very slowly, but became a perceptibly and quieter performer, though the 37 growl was always there.  By the time I built Cwmdimbath and repainted the loco to unlined green G W R initials livery as 4145, delivered new to Tondu in 1947 and xfer STJ IIRC May '48, it's running was comparable to the new 'hi fi' RTR stuff I was buying, and which were showing it's Airfix GMR crudity up a bit.  The biggest issue was the motor extending into the cab and there seemed no easy way around this beyond building a South Eastern chassis for it, which to be honest the loco didn't warrant.  

 

Then, about 3 years ago now, the slide bars split and the loco did spectacular cartwheel which must have been similar to David's disaster as the connecting rod drove into the ballast.  I replaced the cylinder and slide bar assembly from the donor loco, still lurking in the scrap box after all those years, and all was well for about 3 weeks until these slide bars also split and the loco did some more gymnastics.  I carefully superglued the slide bars back together and spent an evening delicately filing the result for smooth running.  They broke again a few days later.  The basic issue was that the plastic had become brittle and it looked as if the matter was terminal.  I half heartedly looked on 'Bay for a Mainline 43xx or Manor as a chassis donor, but knew this was also going to be a temporary solution, and gave up.  4145 is now a shelf model, and bits of 4162 are extant but she's been used. as a buffer, chimney cap, buffer beam strut, and handrail donor and is looking very sorry for herself. 

 

I also looked at various s/h Hornby prairies, but was unsure that these would not have eventually gone the same way as the slide bars and motion looked to be the same tooling.  There seem to be 2 Hornby previous versions, the later with better spoked leading and trailing wheels.  At this point, Dapol announced their intention to produce a large prairie, followed by Hornby.  Current sitrep; Cwmdimbath wants, but doesn't need, a large prairie.  My period is nominally 1948-58 and, as we know, 4145 was only at Tondu for 4 months at the beginning of this timeframe.  The next 5101 to turn up was 4144, in the autumn of 1957, again only a short period from my timeframe.  Money is being held back for the Bachmann 94xx for the time being, and I intend to wait and see which is the better of the Dapol and Hornby 5101s

 

Tondu had one other large prairie during this period, 3100, doyen of the Collett 1938 31xx class of 5 locos, the ultimate development of the GW large prairie, and used chiefly for the daily Porthcawl-Cardiff through commuter service, where it's combination of small driving wheels and big boiler meant that it could get away quickly from the main line stops and keep out of the way of the faster traffic.  I have a long term plan to kitbash this loco which has featured various intended components over the years starting with the Mainline 43xx chassis and Airfix construction kit CoT superstructure.  Current idea for this project, which is primarily something to do when the layout is finished in my dotage and will see very restricted use, is a s/h Mainline or, if I can justify the cost, new Dapol 43xx, which already has the no.4 boiler at the correct pitch, and backhead details, with the chassis modified to take the 5'3" driving wheels, doing what I can with the cab from 4162.  The cylinders will have to be lowered on the chassis somehow to account for the 2 and a half inch offset between the piston centre line and the axle centre line, which must match exactly.  Not for a few years yet though...

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by The Johnster

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

 

I also looked at various s/h Hornby prairies, but was unsure that these would not have eventually gone the same way as the slide bars and motion looked to be the same tooling.  There seem to be 2 Hornby previous versions, the later with better spoked leading and trailing wheels.

 

Nope, I don't think so.

My R2098A is from 2000, it was the first Hornby version of this model and had a re-tooled chassis to take a can motor and also gained metal tyred plastic spoked leading & trailing wheels.

It was not DCC ready.

My later Hornby model R3109 from around 2010/11 has a re-vamp of the chassis to provide a DCC socket. The wheels of both are identical.

Both these locos have the same fragile plastic slide rods, presumably as per Airfix.

 

They both run reasonably well and will pull more than the current loco which IMHO is too light.

 

With the latest model it will start 8 coaches on the level but starts to struggle up 1:100

It will also just about start 10 coaches but slips to a stop within a couple of feet of the bottom of the incline.

With only 235g I'm not surprised, it's no better than a Bachmann Pannier.

 

 

[The Johnster]

Just as well I said that there only seemed to be two variants of the Hornby large prairie, then...

 

The haulage performance you quote is not too bad for a loco classed 4MT by BR, and power class C IIRC by the GW, but the thing does seem to be a bit of a lightweight.  Is there room to add ballast?  If so you should be able to get two more coaches out of her, and probably manage the 1 in 100.  You are clearly an experienced modeller who knows the ropes, but it's worth mentioning for the sake of those less 'immersed' that haulage is adversely affected by anything other than perfectly laid track, and that laying perfectly laid track on gradients, especially the transitions at the top and bottom, and more especially on curved gradients which tend to develop a helical form where the inside rail is steeper than the outside one, is harder than it looks but still essential for reliable haulage.  

 

On a loco with a more or less rigid chassis, which is pretty much it for RTR steam outline, if one wheel loses grip the load is dumped instantaneously on the others, which are prone to start slipping, and it is then very hard to get grip back before the train loses significant momentum.  Most peoples' instinctive reaction is to reason that the loco is failing because it has insufficient power, and crank the juice up, but in fact there is too much power for those wheels remaining in good contact with the rail, which is why they've lost grip, and the best thing to do is to ease the power off until the wheels are gripping again and then increase the power very slowly.  If you can keep the loco moving forward you should be able to get all the driving wheels past the bad spot and be able to pick up a little speed again, which will stand you in good stead for next time it happens a foot further on...  this technique requires very gentle handling, as any sudden increase in voltage will trigger more slipping.

 

An underpowered loco on an uphill gradient will stall rather than slip, and if this happens it is essential to reduce power quickly to the motor or cut it altogether, as the motor will rapidly overheat.  Keeping power as low as you can, so that it will just run, you can attach a banker to the rear and try again, but if this doesn't work the attempt must be abandoned.  Split the train and come back for the rear half, or reverse off the gradient.  

 

 

[MG 7305]

Am I the only one to be amazed by how gawdy Hornby models have become over recent years?  In the case of the GWR 61xx I record, a not exhaustive list:

 

1.  The all brass cylinder relief valve mechanism.  Most of this is steel and should be black and no one was polishing the cocks and exhaust pipes on a 61xx.

2.  Injectors and associated pipework.  These  was/is black, refer to recent repaint of 6106.  A 61xx was not a King, assuming Kings were so polished.

3.  Injector feed pipes on top of tanks to clack valves.  No one was polishing these, assuming they were copper in the first place.

4.  Hand brake handle, fireman's side in cab.  No, it was not red, it was black.  See 6106 again.

5.  Unpainted and polished brass pipes to the whistles.

 

Some of these, serials 1 and 2 for example, are also evident on the 42/52/72xx classes and 28xx/2884 classes amongst others, 

 

Not so gawdy but should be correctly presented:

 

1.  Reversing lever handle and reversing lever releasing handle, drivers side.  The tops of these should be polished steel, not red.

 

Other issues on request.

 

On the plus side correcting these issues on my railway increase sales of Humbrol paints!

 

Best regards

 

Julian

[gwrrob]

The green that Hornby class as GWR  green could also be classed as gaudy. Not rich enough for my liking.

[phil-b259]

On 17/07/2020 at 08:26, DKGL said:

Regarding the crew, I'd be concerned about trying to place through the cab openings, like PMP did above, with the Modelu figure, which I have to say looks very realistic. With my luck, I'd probably get glue everywhere, so I'm going to remove part of the floor, from the inside (see photo below), and insert the crew that way.

 

It rather depends on what glue you use....

 

Wherever possible I use PVA based Wood Glue for attaching crew (and indeed accessories where possible*) which can be wiped off if it should end up where you don't want it. Should also be reasonably easy to remove too at a later date.

 

 

* My big bear is fitting couplings where there is only a very shallow / sloppy notch in the buffer beam. Such fittings normally require quick drying superglue by virtue of you having to hold the coupling till it sets (if you don't it tends to fall out or end up wonky), however one slip of the fingers and you smear superglue over the buffer beam (or up the back of the bunker of an ornately lined out P tank)

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, MG 7305 said:

Am I the only one to be amazed by how gawdy Hornby models have become over recent years?  In the case of the GWR 61xx I record, a not exhaustive list:

 

1.  The all brass cylinder relief valve mechanism.  Most of this is steel and should be black and no one was polishing the cocks and exhaust pipes on a 61xx.

2.  Injectors and associated pipework.  These  was/is black, refer to recent repaint of 6106.  A 61xx was not a King, assuming Kings were so polished.

3.  Injector feed pipes on top of tanks to clack valves.  No one was polishing these, assuming they were copper in the first place.

4.  Hand brake handle, fireman's side in cab.  No, it was not red, it was black.  See 6106 again.

5.  Unpainted and polished brass pipes to the whistles.

 

Some of these, serials 1 and 2 for example, are also evident on the 42/52/72xx classes and 28xx/2884 classes amongst others, 

 

Not so gawdy but should be correctly presented:

 

1.  Reversing lever handle and reversing lever releasing handle, drivers side.  The tops of these should be polished steel, not red.

 

Other issues on request.

 

On the plus side correcting these issues on my railway increase sales of Humbrol paints!

 

Best regards

 

Julian

From whence do you get these words of wisdom?

 

 

[DCB]

Our 61XX is now running again.  Had to borrow tools from a watchmaker to refit the coupling rod screw. It ran ok until the rear coupling worked loose and caught in a point which was annoying.

Quick comparison with the circa 2010 Hornby on around a 1 in 40 was 4 coaches and a shunters truck for the new one and 7 plus the shunter's truck for the 2010 one.  The Wills 61XX will manage at least 10 on the same gradient.   Couldn't find any level track fora  test as even the flat bit is around 1 in 100 due to the shed slowly subsiding.    Weak point on the older ones was slide bars breaking. I made one set of new ones from N gauge rail and sheet brass for the motion bracket but it took ages.   Next problem, what to do with a 2010 Hornby 61XX in BR unlined green with sightly eccentric driving wheels, as with the new one we now have three 61XX none of which have enough traction for banking duties, plus two good strong big prairies and a much dreamed about 3150  on the cusp of being created.

[The Johnster]

23 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Arrived from Kernow today. Just running in. Its very light, probably not even half as heavy as my old Wills 61XX and a lot lighter than the 10 year old or so Hornby which had traction tyres.

 Lovely detail, especially the firemans side bunker steps and the correct cut away to the bunker.  Make an excellent static model

My 42xx dropped a connection rod crankpin.  Like this, a fundamentally good model let down by poor quality control, and Hornby seem not to have fully got on top of this issue.