SR Milk Tankers

[Jack P]

Hello again collective Southern mind,

 

I am looking at putting together a train of Milk Tanks, however i'm not 100% sure what I should be going for. I model 1947 SR, and I have read that the Southern served both Express Dairy and CWS, i'm not sure if this is appropriate for my time period or not, or even where I would begin to look,

 

To summarize, what models should I be looking at, and what formation would they have run in, in 1947,

 

TIA!

 

 

[Karhedron]

By 1947, the SR carried it most of its milk in tankers (as opposed to churns). This shot shows a T14 on a down milk empties at Vauxhall in 1948.

 

 

You are right that the SR served both Express Dairies and CWS however the Milk Marketing Board had pooled milk tankers in 1942 as part of the war effort. This meant you were less likely to see rakes of matching tankers than you were in pre-war years. Also it was around this time that milk tankers started losing their colourful liveries to be replaced by dull silver.

 

Milk trains were not widely photographed at this time so getting exact compositions of liveries right is going to be very tricky. I would imagine that a mix of dirty pre-war liveries and some in slightly cleaner silver would probably be convincing.

 

One thing you will definitely need is a passenger rated brake vehicle. Milk trains ran at express speeds to make sure they arrived at London before their contents curdled. For this reason a normal goods brake van was not suitable. The Southern used a variety of vehicles for this role including Queen Mary brake vans as well as Maunsell Van Bs and Bogie Brakes. Here is a shot of a QM on a milk train at Seaton although it is rather later than the period you are modelling.

 

 

You might find some more inspiration in this link.

 

http://www.svsfilm.com/nineelms/torr.htm

[bécasse]

Throughout the post-war (and, indeed, wartime) period most milk tanks were absolutely filthy externally. The tanks themselves were (probably still) owned by the individual companies but pooled by the MMB, so there was no incentive to keep them clean. Most tanks worked to a regular cyclic diagram, so identification from their number plates was sufficient and thus even painted numbers tended to become obscured by grime. The insides of the tanks were, in obvious contrast, kept spotless. The tankers visible in that 1948 photo were absolutely typical.

[Jack P]

Thank you both! @Karhedron that link was very helpful indeed. I was advised by John Harvey that even post war - the tanks were indeed owned by the milk company and the frames were owned by the railway company. He also mentioned there is some information in 'The Southern Notebook' 

 

It's probably impossible to know for sure, but I would assume this meant that SR tanks would have a Black sole-bar - but is there any chance they would've been in the SR freight brown?

 

Does this mean it would be likely to see a mix of LMS/SR/GWR tanks in one train, or did they very much stick to a specific region? (Again i'd assume that pooling meant that they went everywhere)

 

This link may be of use to anyone else that's interested, not just in SR tankers, but in general. It has a wealth of information about Milk Churn wagons and Milk Tankers (no affiliation): 

 

http://www.igg.org.uk/rail/7-fops/fo-milk.htm

 

If anyone else has anything to contribute, or any pictures of their modelling attempts, please speak up!

[Mallard60022]

Not your era but typical scene at Seaton Junction. SJ was an Express Dairies milk and egg shipment Depot. Chard was another firm.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Wickham Green]

The Southern tankers had very distinctive cylindrical dampers ( Or were they secondary rubber springs ? ) and I can't see these on any of the vehicles shown above - except, possibly the second wagon behind the 'Paddleboat' ...... that MIGHT suggest pooling of vehicles by '47. ( or my eyesight's not what it should be )

[Karhedron]

Getting definitive answers might be difficult. The pooling of milk tanks by the MMB is documented well enough. What is less clear is what effect this had day-to-day on the rails. Photos of the railways during the war and prior to nationalisation are relatively rare and milk trains were not a particularly glamourous subject. Add to that those photos that so show them usually show them being pretty filthy. I know that this is not a particularly helpful answer but unless some new sources of information or photographs come to light, it may well remain lost in the mists of time.

 

The photos below are rather after the time period you are interested in but show that by the end of steam, milk tankers had become completely mixed with ex-GWR, ex-LMS and BR designs all running on southern metals. It has also jogged my memory that both United Dairies, C&G and Unigate (their joint successor) was also a significant contributor to southern milk traffic.

 

http://www.semgonline.com/vandw/milk_01.html

[Wickham Green]

14 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

......... milk trains were not a particularly glamourous subject. .......

Moreover they often ran during the hours of darkness when most photographers were tucked up in bed.

[Karhedron]

On 29/03/2019 at 03:43, Jack P said:

It's probably impossible to know for sure, but I would assume this meant that SR tanks would have a Black sole-bar - but is there any chance they would've been in the SR freight brown?

 

I don't have a definite answer but I suspect they would not have been freight brown as milk tanks were not classed as freight vehicles. They were classed as Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock (NPCCS) so I would have expected the sole-bars to match coaching stock.  As you say thought, getting a definite answer could be tricky.

 

On 29/03/2019 at 03:43, Jack P said:

Does this mean it would be likely to see a mix of LMS/SR/GWR tanks in one train, or did they very much stick to a specific region? (Again i'd assume that pooling meant that they went everywhere)

 

Much to my surprise, milk tanks were known to wander off, even in the early days. This page has a lovely shot of Uttoxeter in 1935 at the bottom and you can clearly see a GWR milk tank in the United Dairies siding, despite being in the depths of LMS territory. I have also seen photos of an Express Dairy tank at a DMP creamery in the 1930s. This means that even before the MMB pooling, you could find tankers built by one company on another's rails and tankers built for one dairy at a creamery belonging to another.

 

https://lightmoor.co.uk/books/the-north-staffordshire-railway-in-lms-days-volume-2/l9655

[Nearholmer]

Uttoxeter-Stoke-Newcastle-Market Drayton, and the rails of the GWR, isnt actually all that far, so it might have gone to-and-fro by that route.

[Wickham Green too]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I don't have a definite answer but I suspect they would not have been freight brown as milk tanks were not classed as freight vehicles. They were classed as Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock (NPCCS) so I would have expected the sole-bars to match coaching stock.  As you say thought, getting a definite answer could be tricky.

Moreover as the tanks would have been painted in various dairies' colours, 'neutral' black would seem to be logical. ( There doesn't seem to be a definitive answer to solebar colour in either Harvey or Gould.)

Edited November 15, 2021 by Wickham Green too

[hmrspaul]

4 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I don't have a definite answer but I suspect they would not have been freight brown as milk tanks were not classed as freight vehicles. They were classed as Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock (NPCCS) so I would have expected the sole-bars to match coaching stock.  As you say thought, getting a definite answer could be tricky.

 

 

Much to my surprise, milk tanks were known to wander off, even in the early days. This page has a lovely shot of Uttoxeter in 1935 at the bottom and you can clearly see a GWR milk tank in the United Dairies siding, despite being in the depths of LMS territory. I have also seen photos of an Express Dairy tank at a DMP creamery in the 1930s. This means that even before the MMB pooling, you could find tankers built by one company on another's rails and tankers built for one dairy at a creamery belonging to another.

 

https://lightmoor.co.uk/books/the-north-staffordshire-railway-in-lms-days-volume-2/l9655

Nice photo but do you understand why the caption writer refers to the milk tank barrels as "containers". A term usually reserved in rail terms for an easily removable freight carrying item. 

 

Paul

[Wickham Green too]

If I didn't have the photo in front of me I would presume the phrase "4-wheeled 2,000 gallon container and ... 6-wheeled 3,000 gallon container" referred to Dyson tank trailers  -  but that's clearly not the case !

[Nearholmer]

It isn’t the case.

 

And, having now seen the picture, I do wonder if that train is indeed a loaded one, heading for the GWR at Market Drayton, because I think the direction of travel is correct.

[Karhedron]

16 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

And, having now seen the picture, I do wonder if that train is indeed a loaded one, heading for the GWR at Market Drayton, because I think the direction of travel is correct.

 

I thought that milk from Uttoxeter was worked to Derby and then down the MML. I could be wrong on that as the MML was handy for the Express Dairy at Cricklewood but somewhat less so for United Dairies who would have been dispatching to Mitre Bridge and Wood Lane.

 

The train could have empties for Congleton which had both a Nestle and CWS dairy at this time. Or it could indeed be loaded and bound for GWR metals via Market Drayton.

 

After nationalisation, I have a record of empty tankers being worked from Liverpool Street to Uttoxeter. Possibly these were empties from the United Dairies bottling plant at Ilford but that is just a guess. Whether full tanks were worked back the same way I do not know. Milk train routes were frequently surprisingly complicated.

[Karhedron]

17 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Nice photo but do you understand why the caption writer refers to the milk tank barrels as "containers". A term usually reserved in rail terms for an easily removable freight carrying item. 

 

I do not. Possibly it is because the tanks were owned by the dairy companies while the underframes were owned by the railways.

[Pete Haitch]

On 15/11/2021 at 15:25, Karhedron said:

 

Much to my surprise, milk tanks were known to wander off, even in the early days. This page has a lovely shot of Uttoxeter in 1935 at the bottom and you can clearly see a GWR milk tank in the United Dairies siding, despite being in the depths of LMS territory. I have also seen photos of an Express Dairy tank at a DMP creamery in the 1930s. This means that even before the MMB pooling, you could find tankers built by one company on another's rails and tankers built for one dairy at a creamery belonging to another.

 

https://lightmoor.co.uk/books/the-north-staffordshire-railway-in-lms-days-volume-2/l9655

I am building a layout I designed 55 years ago shortly before abandoning model railways (for 55 years).  As I want a retro style I intend to use these:

 

I'm working on modify them a little:

 

... and intend to change some to the livery of the GW 4wheel milk tank wagon shown in the picture that the link provided by @Karhedron connects to. I a little confused about when UD used orange and maroon liveries.  Are any of the following liveries correct for 1935? (Reference to pre or post war are speculative on my part)

 

 

Grateful thanks for any help given.

 

Pete.

[Karhedron]

I have seen photos of UD(W) branded tanks from the 1930s. The W in brackets referred to "wholesale". Most of the ones I have seen look like they were painted silver with black lettering but that may have been a photographic livery. The example you quoted above is definitely light lettering on a darker background. It may well have been white on orange but without colour photos we may never know for certain. I have seen photos of another variant of United Dairies livery with a darker background from the 1930s as shown below. Again, I believe this was probably UD orange/red but proof remains elusive.

 

[Pete Haitch]

Many thanks @Karhedron for prompt response.

[phil_sutters]

On 16/11/2021 at 13:10, Karhedron said:

 

I do not. Possibly it is because the tanks were owned by the dairy companies while the underframes were owned by the railways.

In a Railway Magazine article from February 1928, the 'containers' are referred to as that. They were supplied by the Dairy Supply Co. Ltd. with the railway companies providing the underframes. The article credits the lead in the introduction to the Great Western and London Midland and Scottish Railways. At that period 280 million gallons of milk were carried annually. There are photos of GW and LMS four wheeled wagons in what look like two different UD liveries, both with dark lettering on light coloured tank body colours. The underframes are very dark - quite possibly black.

[Pete Haitch]

Has anyone been to Chippenham and searched the UD archives to see if there are livery records?

Pete.

 

[Karhedron]

On 08/12/2022 at 10:03, Pete Haitch said:

Has anyone been to Chippenham and searched the UD archives to see if there are livery records?

Pete.

 

I have but alas there are not. Most of the records are fairly dry financial matters. Where they pertain to the railways at all, they tend to be things like invoices for laying sidings to new creameries and the like. There is also not much in the way of operational details either, I guess these reside in the GWR's archives rather than UD's if they still exist.

 

There are some nice photos in the archives but they are patchy. For example there are lots of great photos of Whitland but not many others.

[Pete Haitch]

Thanks very much for the answer - I shall not bother making the trip then and use the money saved to purchase 'Milk on the Rails' by Matthew Pinto from Wild Swan Publishing.

 

A while ago you posted this and other picture of Lostwithiel from 'Britain from Above'.  There are a couple of Micas in the picture which are presumably being used for milk traffic. Any markings on them cannot be seen due to dirt, film limitations and scale.  Do you know if the Micas used for milk retained the same markings as those used for meat, or was there some indication that they were only to be used for milk/dairy product, to avoid cross contamination?  If the answer is in the book, don't give all the research away - I'll wait for publication day.

 

Thanks, Pete.

[Karhedron]

I am afraid I don't know what the MICA was doing at Lostwithiel, I haven't really seen much about MICAs used for dairy traffic at all. The GWR favoured Siphons for churn traffic and these were phased out by the introduction of milk tanks (MILTAs). Possibly the MICAs could have been used for butter or cheese but I have not heard of this in practice I think Lostwithiel just dispatched fresh milk to London at this date rather than processing it.

[Wickham Green too]

The use of a MICA for churns of liquid milk would have been worse than a four-wheeled MILTA and would have resulted in butter + buttermilk ................. could it have been delivering solid milk products - from elsewhere - for local distribution ?