Private Owner Wagons

[bbishop]

The introduction of British outline 7mm ready to run models has achieved interest from German modellers.  They comprehend the concepts of pre-grouping, grouping and nationalisation because they approximate to German railway history, but Private Owner Wagons are a new concept to them.

 

I have drafted three articles, which I will translate and post on the Spur Null Magazin forum.  I would appreciate if you could peer review them in due course.  Don't worry about the writing style - my German is very basic and I must minimise "errors in translation".  Watch this space.

 

Bill

 

PS: as an aside, there are many POW howlers on exhibition layouts in this country!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎30‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 08:51, bbishop said:

... as an aside, there are many POW howlers on exhibition layouts in this country!

Publishing the English versions wouldn't hurt , to aid in correcting the above. (Many have tried, but water dripping on stone and all that...)

[bbishop]

Before I submit my draft for your scrutiny, may I ask about Slater's wagons?  The question is about the RCH specification associated with each kit.

 

Kits 7045 - 48 are RCH 1923, obviously!

 

Kits 7040 - 41 are Charles Roberts 7 plank, and appear to be to the RCH 1911 specification.

 

Kits 7058 - 59 are Gloucester7 plank, and may to be to the RCH 1911 specification, can anyone confirm?

 

Kits 7035 - 36 are Gloucester 6 plank, and may to be to the RCH 1887 specification, can anyone confirm?

 

Kit 7044 is Gloucester 5 plank, and appears to be to the RCH 1887 specification, can anyone confirm?

 

As you can tell, I'm especially unsure about the Gloucester wagons and it doesn't help that the company were pretty flexible about details such as inside or outside strapping.  Is length the determining factor, 14½ft for RCH 1887 and 15½ft for RCH 1911?  I'm not sure!

 

Thanks, Bill

[jamie92208]

I will look forward to seeing your articles with interest Bill and will comment if competent.

 

Jamie

[tigerburnie]

Not going to be able to assist here Bill, fail on all counts, I can't remember any private wagons on the Great Central in the 1950's or 60's, I don't model them and finally Nicht fustand Doitch either...…………...

[The Johnster]

There would have been a good number of what had originally been PO wagons on the GC section up to the early 60s, wooden bodied 7 plank minerals, but the PO liveries would be painted over in BR grey, and the wagons renumbered in the BR ‘P’ series.  Any surviving previous livery, and I’m not saying there were none, would be indistinguishable beneath the filth. 

[hmrspaul]

The RCH specifications were enormous - I've seen a set 5 wood bound drawings of about A2 size, so not reproduced anywhere. There is general agreement the best published source is https://hmrs.org.uk/publications/books/books-in-print/private-owner-wagons-from-the-ince-waggon-ironworks-co.html

which has both the basic General arrangement drawings and many detail drawings of running gear parts.

 

Unusually Gloucester also has its own book which also includes a few GA drawings.

Montague, Keith (1981) Private owner wagons from the Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd. Oxford Publishing Co. Oxford, SBN 86093 124 2. 182 pages

 

Paul

[AndyID]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

There would have been a good number of what had originally been PO wagons on the GC section up to the early 60s, wooden bodied 7 plank minerals, but the PO liveries would be painted over in BR grey, and the wagons renumbered in the BR ‘P’ series.  Any surviving previous livery, and I’m not saying there were none, would be indistinguishable beneath the filth. 

 

From memory in the 50's it was not unusual to see some where the paint had weathered on some of the planks and the PO branding was starting to reappear. Unfortunately I don't have any photos.

[asmay2002]

On 04/04/2019 at 12:04, bbishop said:

Before I submit my draft for your scrutiny, may I ask about Slater's wagons?  The question is about the RCH specification associated with each kit.

 

Kits 7045 - 48 are RCH 1923, obviously!

 

Kits 7040 - 41 are Charles Roberts 7 plank, and appear to be to the RCH 1911 specification.

 

Kits 7058 - 59 are Gloucester7 plank, and may to be to the RCH 1911 specification, can anyone confirm?

 

Kits 7035 - 36 are Gloucester 6 plank, and may to be to the RCH 1887 specification, can anyone confirm?

 

Kit 7044 is Gloucester 5 plank, and appears to be to the RCH 1887 specification, can anyone confirm?

 

As you can tell, I'm especially unsure about the Gloucester wagons and it doesn't help that the company were pretty flexible about details such as inside or outside strapping.  Is length the determining factor, 14½ft for RCH 1887 and 15½ft for RCH 1911?  I'm not sure!

 

Thanks, Bill

Dragonwheel books produced a reprint of the 1887 RCH standard goods wagon drawings and description back in 2005 ISBN 1 870177 69 X.

 

This is a 5 plank wagon and as far as I can tell was 14'-11" over the body planking (a length over headstocks is not shown on the drawings but the internal space was 14'-6"  long and the planks were 2.5" thick).

Edited April 6, 2019 by asmay2002

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, AndyID said:

 

From memory in the 50's it was not unusual to see some where the paint had weathered on some of the planks and the PO branding was starting to reappear. Unfortunately I don't have any photos.

Near my home in Cardiff was Crwys Coal Storage yard, the back roads of which were used for storing withdrawn wagons awaiting disposal until about 1960; I can recall seeing such 'ghost' liveries here, though not in traffic.  My memory is fairly clear from about 1958, when I was 6.  When the the sidings were removed a decade or so later for a housing development, it released a plague of rats into the surrounding areas.

 

Cherry Orchard sidings, also on the Rhymney and just the Cardiff side of Caerphilly tunnel, were also used for this.  Storage of withdrawn wagons, I mean, although the rats were no doubt a feature there, too.

 

The usual livery for wooden 7 plank XPO wagons in the 50s was heavily weathered coal dust finished off with general crud, and the decrepitude was remarkable.  You could see the sides wobbling and warping as the wagons moved, and total collapse always seemed imminent; they held together, though, probably because they were too mucky to fall apart!  Replaced planks and missing planks that had not been replaced were common, especially but not exclusively top planks.  Bottom ones got wet (coal was soaking from the washeries when it was loaded) and rotted out, whereas the top ones just got smashed off by the loading machinery and the hoists at the docks.  The replacement planks could just as easily have been pinched off another wagon to keep a loaded vehicle in traffic as new wood, so 'hybrid' liveries could be seen.

 

Despite this, they probably lasted better than the steel replacements, which were rust prone.  Water coming off wet coal is actually dilute sulphuric acid, and highly corrosive.

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, AndyID said:

 

From memory in the 50's it was not unusual to see some where the paint had weathered on some of the planks and the PO branding was starting to reappear. Unfortunately I don't have any photos.

That's correct. Officially wooden open wagons (not just minerals) on wooden frames were NOT to be repainted. An instruction which altered in 1959. Admittedly photos do show some repainted but it was unusual. As you say the original lettering could show through, sometimes writ large and sometimes the small austerity lettering introduced during the war - although most of this would be over painted with the black ground where the BR P series number would go.

 

Paul

 

[bbishop]

Gentlemen,

 

Thank you for your replies.  The fact that none of you answered my question probably means that the question itself was wrong.  I am very aware that the wagon builders (especially Charles Roberts and Gloucester) developed the design of POWs between the RCH specifications.  In effect, the RCH specifications were playing catch up with actual practice.    So the Slaters kits are representative of what was actually happening, so I shouldn't get too hung up in attempting to tie them into a specific specification.  I shall amend my draft and publish on RMWeb in the next day or two.

 

Bill

[jamie92208]

The builders did try and update the designs such as Charles Robert's who designed an all steel wagon in the 20's but the colliery owners wouldn't spend money upgrading the loading facilities. It took Beeching,, Mr and some political pressure to achieve that in the 60's.

 

Jamie

[Poor Old Bruce]

On 30/03/2019 at 08:51, bbishop said:

PS: as an aside, there are many POW howlers on exhibition layouts in this country!

 

1 - Model manufacturers tend to stretch or shrink liveries to suit existing moulded bodies.

 

2 - It is often difficult to find information on the dates and longevity of wagon liveries.

 

It is therefore too easy to get the wrong wagon in the wrong livery at the wrong date even though the wagon may be appropriate for the traffic portrayed.

[hmrspaul]

Tony Watts Ince book has an RCH standard all steel mineral wagon GA for 1903, and an all iron bodied open from 1857.

 

Paul

Edited April 7, 2019 by hmrspaul

[corneliuslundie]

Re the painting of wagons in early BR days, i wonder if in fact at least some of the examples seen had been repainted early in the war in the utility livery - plain colour with small lettering mostly at the lower left which would have been obliterated when the P number was painted on. In monochrome photos this might be hard to tell from BR grey.  Later in the war repainting would have been less likely.

But I agree that we haven't answered your initial question.

Jonathan

[bbishop]

Gentlemen,

 

Thank you.  I have already amended my draft, which I shall post here in three sections.  Remember, the target audience is a German O Gauge modeller, who is tempted into the British scene.  So I must present a simple and coherent story, and I still have to translate into German!

 

So part the first .....

 

1

HISTORY – The very early railways allowed anyone to operate trains.  Chaos!  So the railway companies provided the locomotives but the Government permitted the use of privately owned wagons.  So the history of Private Owner Wagons starts in about 1845 and ends in 1939, when the Government acquired them at the beginning of WW2.  However, very few people model before 1880, so that is when our story starts.

GOODS – Many goods were transported in Private Owner Wagons (eg oil, petrol, chemicals, stone, clay, coke) but I shall concentrate on coal.

TRANSPORTATION

Road – horse and cart, lorry (local delivery)

Canal – cheap but slow.

Coaster – cheap, but at least two transhipments.  Used for riverside industry (electricity and gas production) or when quicker than rail ( to Cornwall).

Railways – the rest.

ORGANISATIONS – The Board of Trade (BoT) regulated the railway companies and determined standards for wheels, buffers, brakes etc.  The railway companies created the Railway Clearing House (RCH).   A responsibility of the RCH  was the provision of specifications, to satisfy the BoT regulations, but also to define how the wagons were built.  We can use shorthand, so RCH 1923 is the specification implemented in that year.

I will write later about the users, specifications and models.

[bbishop]

Part the second .....

 

2

THE PLAYERS  -  The smallest player was the TRADER.  Probably he owned a horse and cart, to deliver to the householder.  He might purchase the coal from the next player up the chain, the MERCHANT.  He probably had an office in the station yard.  He would sell to the trader or directly to the householder.  He would purchase from the colliery and had to transport the coal from the colliery to his siding in the station yard.  He might acquire wagons to transport coal from his chosen colliery to his siding.  Many merchants used their wagons for advertising, with their name, address and telephone number painted on the side.  If the colliery was in Nottinghamshire and the merchant in Kent, then the wagons would mainly travel between these counties.

However the merchant might not have wagons and could use a FACTOR to transport the coal.  Some factors were also merchants.  Again some factors only delivered to certain parts of the country, eg Moy concentrated within East Anglia. 

The final player was the COLLIERY, which had their own fleet of wagons, with which they could deliver to the merchant.  Anthracite was a special type of coal, mined in South Wales, with a low arsenic content.  It was used by food and drink manufacturers, including breweries, and often travelled in wagons owned by the anthracite colliery that could be seen anywhere in the country.  Most railway companies only transported coal for their locomotives, but I will identify some exceptions later.

TRAFFIC – On the main lines, coal was transported in mineral trains and general freight transported in goods trains.  However we often model a branch terminus, where the freight and mineral traffic was amalgamated in the “pick up goods” train.  So freight and mineral wagons would be seen in the same train.  I mentioned there were exceptions.  The North Eastern Railway had a monopoly of coal traffic, using their own hopper wagons, so very few Private Owner Wagons would be found in that part of England.  Earlier I mentioned that West Country coal was transported by coaster to a port and the onward transportation was mainly by a factor – often in Renwick, Wilton and Dobson wagons.

My third article will consider models and provide a bibliography.

[bbishop]

 Remember that I'm asking you to spot howlers, I am keeping the story as simple as possible.  I've completely ignored topics such as wagon livery.  Part the third ..... 

 

3

WAGON DESIGN – Many companies built POWs, but two companies dominated the market – Charles Roberts and the Gloucester Co.  They had different designs. Earlier  I mentioned that the RCH produced specifications.  Three of these are relevant. The RCH 1887 specification permitted some flexibility of design for 8 ton and 10 ton wagons. The CR and Gloucester designs developed over time.  The RCH 1907 specifications effectively took the two companies latest designs for 8 ton, 10 ton and 12 ton designs.  Other companies had to adopt these designs, most choosing the CR design.  Finally the RCH 1923 specification adopted only the latest CR design for 12 ton wagons. 

I have excluded hopper wagons from my story.  Remember they were prevalent on the north east of England.

Mineral wagons were different to general goods wagons.  They had to be strong, because the coal was tipped into them at the collieries.  So the top planks were often the length of the wagon, with the side doors less than the full height of the wagon.  However some locations required end tipping or unloading by gravity. But remember our coaster?  A colliery wagon transported the coal from the South Wales collieries.  The coal was end tipped into the coaster, which steamed across the Bristol Channel, before the coal was unloaded by crane into the wagon of a factor (possibly Renwick, Wilton and Dobson).  So factors and collieries acquired wagons with side, end and bottom doors, although it was very rare for a wagon to have two end doors.  Merchants liked wagons with side doors only because they were stronger and cheaper.  But there were often second hand bargains…..

LIFE, ETC – Mineral wagons had a tough life.  They probably survived for more than 20 years but accidents could shorten their lives.  But some merchants would treat their wagon as a family pet!   Few 8 ton wagons survived until 1939.  Some merchants had strange numbering policies, such as even numbers only, or numbers ending in “7”, or year of acquisition (eg 1910).

MODELS – Your starting point could be the Gauge O Guild website, look at Products, then Traders’ Websites.  Dapol make ready to run models but frankly I am not a fan.  POW Sides and Slaters make painted kits.  Peco (Parkside Dundas), Furness and Slaters make unpainted kits.  The Slaters range is very comprehensive, however Peco make steel underframe wagons, which became common in the 1920s. 

You will observe descriptions of wagons on the Slaters website.  The Gloucester kits represent wagons built only by that company.  You may assume that other builders produced a wagon that was similar to the CR design.  I have emphasised that there was flexibility so these kits are only a representation of the actual design.  However British modellers are not concerned by the variations.  But builders adhered closely to the RCH 1923 specification.

POW Sides often paint a Slaters kit.  Slaters are plastic kits that are assembled with a solvent (eg 2-butanol).  There are brass parts that you must score and fold.  You can strengthen the folds with solder.  Lost wax castings (eg buffers) must be carefully drilled out, especially buffers in order to retain the spring.  You will need hand tools and a soldering iron.

POST HISTORY – The Government requisitioned most Private Owner wagons at the start of WW2 and the wagons were never returned to their owners.  They were very run down by 1945 and most 10 ton wagons were scrapped.  British Railways 16 ton steel mineral wagons gradually replaced the RCH 1923 wagons.  They were painted grey but many of them appeared to be unpainted.  One was unlikely to see a wooden mineral wagon after 1963 on British Railways.

BIBLIOGRAPHY – these books are useful, mostly available from second hand dealers:

British Goods Wagons from 1887 to the present day – R J Essery etc., published in 1970!

Private Owner Wagons, Volume 1 to 4 – Bill Hudson

Private Owner Wagons from the Gloucester RC&W Co. – Keith Montague

Private Owner Wagons, Collections 1 to 13 – Keith Turton

Private Owner Wagons – various regional collections by various authors.

[asmay2002]

32 minutes ago, bbishop said:

Wagons starts in about 1845 and ends in 1939, when the Government acquired them at the beginning of WW2. 

Only some wagons were controlled by the Govt from 1939.  They were not bought until BR days when BR was forced to purchase them by the Govt despite not wanting them.  Why the NCB was not forced to buy the colliery owened wagosn along with the collieries is a mystery.    Oil company wagons have remained PO to the present day as did  some other types.

[asmay2002]

35 minutes ago, bbishop said:

Part the second .....

 

2

THE PLAYERS  -  The smallest player was the TRADER.  Probably he owned a horse and cart, to deliver to the householder.  He might purchase the coal from the next player up the chain, the MERCHANT.  He probably had an office in the station yard.  He would sell to the trader or directly to the householder.  He would purchase from the colliery and had to transport the coal from the colliery to his siding in the station yard.  He might acquire wagons to transport coal from his chosen colliery to his siding.  Many merchants used their wagons for advertising, with their name, address and telephone number painted on the side.  If the colliery was in Nottinghamshire and the merchant in Kent, then the wagons would mainly travel between these counties.

However the merchant might not have wagons and could use a FACTOR to transport the coal.  Some factors were also merchants.  Again some factors only delivered to certain parts of the country, eg Moy concentrated within East Anglia. 

The final player was the COLLIERY, which had their own fleet of wagons, with which they could deliver to the merchant.  Anthracite was a special type of coal, mined in South Wales, with a low arsenic content.  It was used by food and drink manufacturers, including breweries, and often travelled in wagons owned by the anthracite colliery that could be seen anywhere in the country.  Most railway companies only transported coal for their locomotives, but I will identify some exceptions later.

TRAFFIC – On the main lines, coal was transported in mineral trains and general freight transported in goods trains.  However we often model a branch terminus, where the freight and mineral traffic was amalgamated in the “pick up goods” train.  So freight and mineral wagons would be seen in the same train.  I mentioned there were exceptions.  The North Eastern Railway had a monopoly of coal traffic, using their own hopper wagons, so very few Private Owner Wagons would be found in that part of England.  Earlier I mentioned that West Country coal was transported by coaster to a port and the onward transportation was mainly by a factor – often in Renwick, Wilton and Dobson wagons.

My third article will consider models and provide a bibliography.

You missed out companies that had a requirement for coal e.g electricity generators, steel companies, even breweries, many of whom had their own fleets which ran between whichever colliery they had bought coal from and their works. Many of the wagons  were not actually owned by the company whose name was on the side but by the wagon builders who leased as well as sold wagons. 

[asmay2002]

36 minutes ago, bbishop said:

 WAGON DESIGN – Many companies built POWs, but two companies dominated the market – Charles Roberts and the Gloucester Co. 

Simply. No.  There were other major players like Hurst, Nelson, R Y Pickering and Maclellan in Scotland,  Cambrian Wagon Co in Wales, and Metropolitan RCWCo etc. in England.

[bbishop]

1 hour ago, asmay2002 said:

Only some wagons were controlled by the Govt from 1939.  They were not bought until BR days when BR was forced to purchase them by the Govt despite not wanting them.  Why the NCB was not forced to buy the colliery owened wagosn along with the collieries is a mystery.    Oil company wagons have remained PO to the present day as did  some other types.

 

which is why I used the word "acquired".

 

1 hour ago, asmay2002 said:

Simply. No.  There were other major players like Hurst, Nelson, R Y Pickering and Maclellan in Scotland,  Cambrian Wagon Co in Wales, and Metropolitan RCWCo etc. in England.

 

agreed, I actually meant design, and will change my draft, which is why you are peer reviewing.

 

 

1 hour ago, asmay2002 said:

You missed out companies that had a requirement for coal e.g electricity generators, steel companies, even breweries, many of whom had their own fleets which ran between whichever colliery they had bought coal from and their works. Many of the wagons  were not actually owned by the company whose name was on the side but by the wagon builders who leased as well as sold wagons. 

 

yup, but I'm deliberately keeping things simple, so no change.

 

Bill

[corneliuslundie]

"THE PLAYERS  -  The smallest player was the TRADER.  Probably he owned a horse and cart, to deliver to the householder.  He might purchase the coal from the next player up the chain, the MERCHANT.  He probably had an office in the station yard.  He would sell to the trader or directly to the householder.  He would purchase from the colliery and had to transport the coal from the colliery to his siding in the station yard.  He might acquire wagons to transport coal from his chosen colliery to his siding.  Many merchants used their wagons for advertising, with their name, address and telephone number painted on the side."

This is a bit confusing. someone not familiar with the subject could well think that the "He" of "He probably had an office . . . "is the trader rather than the merchant, especially as you later switch back to using "He" for the trader.

Also, two big simplifications which distort the story. First, for many years a lot of coal was shipped down the east coast to London  and then forwarded by rail. Some of the big shippers had their own coasters.

Secondly, only a small part of the export market was across the channel or to the west country. Much export coal went half way round the world for bunkering and for use in other countries.  There was actually a strong French presence in the South Wales coal industry. Before the First World War when there was a steady switch to oil, bunkering was very important, including our own navy which almost exclusively used South Wales coal.

Jonathan

[asmay2002]

2 hours ago, bbishop said:

yup, but I'm deliberately keeping things simple, so no change.

 

Bill

In which case it's going to be very misleading.  Amongst other things "acquire" means "buy" so what you have written simply isn't true and the government did not in any sense own these wagons until after nationalisation.

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by asmay2002