spice1977 Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 So the layout I am now building is powered by a DR5000 and its all setup and working wonderfully. I decided I wanted to use DCC Concepts Alpha Switch for a control panel (I liked the idea of a physical control panel and already had the kit prior to buying the DR5000 so didn't want it to go to waste) and realised it won't integrate so following their guidelines I purchased the alpha encoder and the sniffer adapter as well as a Digikeijs Booster to provide a separate power bus for the accessories and for the "sniffer" port. Now the DR5000 & Booster works as it should using either Z21, Digitrains Pro or other control software etc, if connected directly to the accessory bus the alpha switch panel works through the DCC Concepts sniffer adapter, but if I connect the output of the adapter to the sniffer input of the Digikeijs booster - nothing. I am using a decent power supply for the DCC Concepts kit as I thought it might have been that but alas no joy. I have tried looking into the settings but its a bit hard when neither Digikeijs or DCC Concepts have any written information on it. I knew you couldn't use alpha box as its the wrong protocols and would require an adapter - DCC Concepts have told me they are looking into this. But I (possibly naively) thought the DCC output of the DCC Concepts Sniffer Adapter would be fine for the sniffer port of the booster. Any suggestions? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 I'm not clear on your setup. However, I think it unlikely that any booster can take input from two sources simultaneously (the DR5000 and the DCC Concepts Alpha Sniffer Adaptor). So, if trying to use two inputs at the same time you've probably got the arrangement of devices. What might work are the Alpha to various maker's bus adaptors. DCC Concepts list adaptors from the Alpha to Digitrax LocoNet and to Lenz Bus. The DR5000 has both of those as inputs. So, in theory, it might work. But I'll only go as far as "might". - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spice1977 Posted April 21, 2019 Author Share Posted April 21, 2019 Yes I think you are right thinking about it again. I think what I will do is power the accessory bus just from the DCC Concepts sniffer adapter and use the DR5033 as a booster for the layout. This way I will get my turnout control panel as an independent circuit and forgo the DR5000 controlling but attach other accessories such as lighting via decoders to that for control via the apps. I don't think you can connect the adapter to the sniffer adapter anyway, I believe you need an alpha box for that and that's not in my immediate plans. Since my turnout panels already built it will do for now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted April 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 21, 2019 (edited) The output from the DCC Concepts Sniffer certainly works with the DCC sniffer input ports of a ESU ECoS and Roco Z21. In theory, it should just plug into the sniffer input of the Digikeijs unit. It shouldn't need any adapter cables. The Alpha Box is a much bigger brother than the Alpha sniffer and can combine the DCC output from any NMRA controller with signals from an Alpha encoder (or Alpha Central) Cheers, Mick Edited April 21, 2019 by newbryford 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 I'm puzzled by your description of wanting to connect the (alpha) to the booster !!! ....implying keeping the 2 DCC systems separate???? Surely you only want ' 1 DCC system'. Which is created by feeding the alpha into the digikeijs 5000 ....( whether by sniffer** or adapter ) Which then creàtes the Master output .....and ' a copy' of this is then fed to the digikeijs booster. ...... And your track and accessory busses ... ....( but I would advocate the Main output going to the accessory bus, and the boosted output going to the track ..... This so that ( if the booster can cut out without shutting down the master output) in the event of a track short, the accessory bus ( signals and points etc) are still under full control. Fed as I suggest:[ Alpha via 2-way adapter > Digikeijs Master 5000 > accessories and booster > and booster out to track ]. You can control from the Alpha or from any hamdset **the sniffer input will be 1-way only .... Is no feedback to the alpha to update it or identify if the DCC system is operating. An adapter such as express net or loconet is 2-way, so that the alpha ought to be able 5o display point and signal settings fed back from the Master unit 5000. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 (edited) FYI: As alternatives to the DCCConcepts Alpha similar ideas ( of push button or switch encoders) are available in kit or diy form from (Merg to an independent DCC bus) or as modified by Paco to produce añ Xpressnet bus output (allowing it to be plugged in in the same way as a handset. I have a ready built variant on Paco's design offered by a smàll Czech group. .. But unfortunately they have now restricted the countries they will supply. ... No longer including the UK. For the display side of the panel, I initially reused zero-1 micromimic panels with merg steady state accessory decoders for the LEDs , and now also have some 'programmable' display drivers from the small Czech company .... But otherwise now use 'glass panel' Monitor or tablet screen displays.... The z21 /Z21 lending itself to the convenience of the latter. But, especially for 'local repeater displays' in parallel with ground signals, I have been getting the DCC concepts alpha display leds and ground signals. Edited April 22, 2019 by Phil S clarifying kit nature of alternatives Paco or Merg (members only) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIK Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 On 21/04/2019 at 09:27, spice1977 said: So the layout I am now building is powered by a DR5000 and its all setup and working wonderfully. I decided I wanted to use DCC Concepts Alpha Switch for a control panel (I liked the idea of a physical control panel and already had the kit prior to buying the DR5000 so didn't want it to go to waste) and realised it won't integrate so following their guidelines I purchased the alpha encoder and the sniffer adapter as well as a Digikeijs Booster to provide a separate power bus for the accessories and for the "sniffer" port. Now the DR5000 & Booster works as it should using either Z21, Digitrains Pro or other control software etc, if connected directly to the accessory bus the alpha switch panel works through the DCC Concepts sniffer adapter, but if I connect the output of the adapter to the sniffer input of the Digikeijs booster - nothing. I am using a decent power supply for the DCC Concepts kit as I thought it might have been that but alas no joy. I have tried looking into the settings but its a bit hard when neither Digikeijs or DCC Concepts have any written information on it. I knew you couldn't use alpha box as its the wrong protocols and would require an adapter - DCC Concepts have told me they are looking into this. But I (possibly naively) thought the DCC output of the DCC Concepts Sniffer Adapter would be fine for the sniffer port of the booster. Any suggestions? Hi, Don't you need to connect the input of the DCC Concepts Sniffer Adapter to the sniffer output of your DCC Command Station and the output of your sniffer adapter to your separate DCC Accessory bus?. Regards Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spice1977 Posted April 23, 2019 Author Share Posted April 23, 2019 From what I can tell you can't connect the DCC Concepts sniffer adapter using an adapter to the DR5000 (or any other system) directly using RJ12 as it is designed to use the sniffer port & the RJ12 port is used to connect to the encoder for the digital signal from the switches. Rereading the DCC Concepts information I see you can either directly connect the encoder using an adapter to several systems - Lenz, Digitrax and Gaugemaster etc OR connect via an alpha box to boost the power. Even DCC Concepts didn't know if it will work as they haven't yet tested a DR5000 - they told me its on their "to do" list. I've been using DCC for years but I am only now getting into using loconet etc so its all new to me. My DCC journey was Hornby Select (too basic) - Hornby e-link (didn't like it) - Signatrak ACE-2 (liked it but no option to connect to computer/JRMI yet) - Digikeijs DR5000. I don't see a sniffer port on the DR5000-ADJ but there is one on the DR5033-ADJ Booster unless its the RS-Bus? I originally thought RS stood for rail sniffer but as I couldnt find any information on it I didnt dare try it! That would be the simplest solution without further purchases. I realise now you can only use one input type - so if its connected to the DR5000 by loconet then the sniffer wont work. If I just connected the DCC Concepts kit to the DR5033 and no DR5000 then it would just boost the power output - which is pointless as the power supply I have for it matches the power output of the DR5033. To clarify what I have right now is: Digikeijs DR5000-ADJ and DR5033-ADJ DCC Concepts Alpha Switch x 2 https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/cobalt-alphaswitch-d-set-to-control-digital-devices-12-blue-switches/ Alpha Encoder https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/cobalt-alpha-main-unit/ Alpha Sniffer https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/alpha-sniffer/ So if I can directly connect the encoder to the DR5000 then I will go with your original suggestion as all I need to buy is an adapter for it. Having looked at the adapters the Lenz one isnt correct (DIN) and neither is the Gaugemaster (RJ45) so I assume the Digitrax would be correct? Since the Digitrax works on loconet which port would I connect to on the DR5000 if the loconet B port is connected to the booster as the only other loconet port is loconet T? https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/cobalt-alpha-digitrax-adapter/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spice1977 Posted April 23, 2019 Author Share Posted April 23, 2019 25 minutes ago, NIK said: Hi, Don't you need to connect the input of the DCC Concepts Sniffer Adapter to the sniffer output of your DCC Command Station and the output of your sniffer adapter to your separate DCC Accessory bus?. Regards Nick No I can't do that as the input is connected to the alpha encoder. Someone elsewhere did try that and burned out the sniffer adapter doing it. For it to work the DCC Concepts output is connected to the sniffer input of the command station which "sniffs" the signal and sends it to the command bus - in theory. I really like DCC Concepts stuff but its far more complicated than they say! The problem is from what I can tell from various forums the DR5000 doesn't have a built in sniffer port - that's why I bought the booster in the first place as that does have one, but it doesn't work for what I need it to do. I'm not buying an alpha box as I have spent enough on the Digikeijs kit, so I will try the adapter lead method as it converts the signal from NCE protocol to Loconet (I think) and if it works great, if not I will stick with my original idea of keeping the signalling totally separate and manually controlled only - since I already have all the kit and it keeps them electrically isolated as stated above for very good and obvious reasons. If the adapter works then great (as the ultimate goal is computer control and automation) I will do as suggested above and connect the accessory bus to the DR5000 and use the DR5033 to provide track power and program it to stay on if the other shorts out. Its all wired up neatly on a separate panel so its just a case of swapping the two buses around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spice1977 Posted April 23, 2019 Author Share Posted April 23, 2019 On 21/04/2019 at 22:37, newbryford said: The output from the DCC Concepts Sniffer certainly works with the DCC sniffer input ports of a ESU ECoS and Roco Z21. In theory, it should just plug into the sniffer input of the Digikeijs unit. It shouldn't need any adapter cables. The Alpha Box is a much bigger brother than the Alpha sniffer and can combine the DCC output from any NMRA controller with signals from an Alpha encoder (or Alpha Central) Cheers, Mick Does the DR5000 have a sniffer port though as all the resources I have found say not - unless as asked above its the RS-Bus. But yes DCC Concepts said that was the case with any rail sniffer equipped system (via email) and was the only reason I bought the sniffer adapter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Its not helped by the poor documentation and difficult to find information from both makers. The only diagrams i can find from DCC Concepts show everything going into DCC Concepts Alpha Box. It appears that DCC Concepts expect customers to connect everything they own into DCC Concepts Alpha Boxes, and that then goes out to the track and accessory buses. Probably not cost-effective from where you currently stand. So, the way forward: (a) run the Alpha switch panel into its own stand-alone booster, which runs a separate accessory bus. (b) look for another method to integrate Alpha's output into the Digikeijs system. That means either finding a way of "sniffing" the DCC Concepts track signal and feeding it into the Digikeijs system, Or, finding a way of reading Alpha's output at the NCE Cab Bus level into Digikeijs. I can think of theoretical ways of doing the second, using a computer running JMRI to bridge things. (c) hope that Digikeijs can add NCE Cab Bus support into their command station. Then the Alpha devices might talk directly to it. (d) change course. For option (d) you could keep the switches, but give up on the other two DCC Concepts items. Then find a different way to connect switches into a DR5000. Multiple ways to do this, two would be via Lenz Bus (Lenz have their own switch input device), or via LocoNet (Signatrak / CML DTM 30 would be my starting place device) - Nigel 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spice1977 Posted April 23, 2019 Author Share Posted April 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said: Its not helped by the poor documentation and difficult to find information from both makers. The only diagrams i can find from DCC Concepts show everything going into DCC Concepts Alpha Box. It appears that DCC Concepts expect customers to connect everything they own into DCC Concepts Alpha Boxes, and that then goes out to the track and accessory buses. Probably not cost-effective from where you currently stand. So, the way forward: (a) run the Alpha switch panel into its own stand-alone booster, which runs a separate accessory bus. (b) look for another method to integrate Alpha's output into the Digikeijs system. That means either finding a way of "sniffing" the DCC Concepts track signal and feeding it into the Digikeijs system, Or, finding a way of reading Alpha's output at the NCE Cab Bus level into Digikeijs. I can think of theoretical ways of doing the second, using a computer running JMRI to bridge things. (c) hope that Digikeijs can add NCE Cab Bus support into their command station. Then the Alpha devices might talk directly to it. (d) change course. For option (d) you could keep the switches, but give up on the other two DCC Concepts items. Then find a different way to connect switches into a DR5000. Multiple ways to do this, two would be via Lenz Bus (Lenz have their own switch input device), or via LocoNet (Signatrak / CML DTM 30 would be my starting place device) - Nigel Thanks Nigel. On the main documentation for alpha which I've reread this morning it does say the alpha encoder or alpha box can be connected to other systems via an adapter ("If you have another brand of DCC system ...you can use Cobalt a Alpha too. Either by simple track power connection or, as a full system bus addition with the addition of an appropriate “Adapter leads”..") . It is very specific as Cobalt a alpha refers to the main encoder and Cobalt a alpha box refers to the alpha box throughout the manual so in that respect its clear. The Digitrax adapter converts the output from NCE Command Bus to Digitrax loconet so that would appear to be an option - but DCC Concepts stress this hasn't been tested as when I enquired they did not have access to a DR5000 (they have one on order apparently). I really don't want to be the guinea pig that blows a DR5000 lol But the manual then only goes into detail with the alpha box connection - not the encoder which isn't exactly helpful. I'm certainly not spending that amount of money on an alpha box I do not need or want. I may look into the other options you mention depending on price. Option A is easy - just a case of rearranging the wiring on the panel but it limits the control to push button only. Option D is definitely doable and I could sell on the sniffer and encoder to help fund it so a distinct possibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spice1977 Posted April 23, 2019 Author Share Posted April 23, 2019 Forgot one controller I had - an NCE Powercab which if I had kept it would have solved all the problems with no additional kit but the only thing I didn't like about it was not touchscreen and it didn't have all the functions on one screen. My DR5000 is connected either via wifi to my mobile using the Z21 app - or via wifi to a laptop using Digitrains Pro which I actually quite like as you can personalise the locos with its picture and function and best of all its free. The laptop is a touchscreen Windows 10 tablet 10 inch screen with keyboard so its small but better than a phone. It will suffice until such time as I want to consider automation or train detection etc. I'm installing a second wifi adapter so the laptop can remain connected to the internet as well as the DR5000 without lots of wiring by using lan as well etc. The advantage of that is the tablet when disconnected from the keyboard is totally portable. I know I could use JRMI for computer control and also a digital panel and it is installed but currently setup for a Sprog 3, but I want the computer screen to literally be free and just show the locos - at the moment the layout is only half built and is a very simple affair overall so it doesn't really need full computer control just yet. I also wanted the turnout control panel to be physically built for the kids to operate without them touching the computer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Looking at the list of inputs to a 5000, confirms the lack of a 'sniffer bus' - my apologies for continuing down that line, as I keep thinking of the 5000 as sort of Z21 - which DOES have a sniffer bus (which, at one time was required to connect the previous Roco MultiCentrale Pro into the Z21 box! ... but that is now provided via one of the other connectors to give 2-way communication. Admittedly I am biased toward Expressnet (ie the Lenz controller interface solution. (NOT the Lenz RS feedback bus) DCC Concepts offer an adapter to Lenz/Expressnet - as you have mentioned: and whilst it is an inconvenience that it has adopted the older Lenz DIN plug instead of the RG type, this can be wired via either a simple adapter cable or (commerically available ?) interface board ... as many people already do this to use cabled Multimauses from Roco with Lenz DCC Control Centres. Using the Lenz adapter in this way should make it behave the same as if you plugged another Expressnet device (such as a cabled Multimaus) into the 5000 box - giving 2-way communication which is the best route to follow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spice1977 Posted April 28, 2019 Author Share Posted April 28, 2019 So I have tried the adapter cables and they do not work. So for now until Digikeijs offers support or DCC Concepts come up with a workaround I have connected the sniffer adapter directly to the accessory bus. I have spare switch connections so can connect them and use to power accessory decoders for lighting etc by using only one instead of both switches. The DR5000 is going to power one half of the layout and the DR5033 the other half - at least for now. Eventually I will look into other equipment for both connecting to the Digikeijs units and still creating a switch panel for the kids to use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arff999 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Hi Spice 1977 Have you got the problem sorted yet ? The sniffer should work connected to the sniffer port as it does with the ECoS and the Z2, then the Alpha switch plugs straight in to the connector on the sniffer, plus you will need to power the sniffer. The other option is to use Alpha Box on to the track output from your system and connect Alpha switch to this again a power supply is needed. Drop a e-mail to the office where you can get assistance. Regards John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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