Loco Headcode Lamps

[Ian Smith]

I am trying to establish what colour I should be painting GWR Loco Headcode Lamps for a circa 1906 layout.  I have 2 copies of Great Western Way, the earlier issue is rather silent on the issue, whereas the later one states that prior to 1903 the lamp cases were black with a white panel on the rear upon which was a red S, and a white diamond was painted on the left hand side (as you look at the lens).  From 1903 the lamp cases were red.

 

Now that's fine, but I have in the back of my mind that the red lamp cases were introduced in 1903 for steam rail motors, and that black lamp cases were retained until about 1915 (almost certainly with the diamond and S panels painted over as they were superfluous after 1903).  My problem is that I cannot find any evidence in any of the books I have looked in to support the 1915 change (or that the red lamps were initially introduced for rail motors).

 

So have I imagined the 1915 date?  Is it just a theory that someone mentioned on a forum somewhere that may or may not have supporting evidence?

 

Thank you in anticipation...

 

Ian

[wenlock]

Hi Ian,

 

Not sure how much this will help but Nick (Buffalo) made these comments about my Dean Goods when it sported red lamps:-)

 

Best wishes

 

Dave

 

 

On 10/12/2013 at 12:51, buffalo said:

Super resuly, Dave. Well worth waiting for.

 

Nick

 

ps. I'm surprised that Mr Dean didn't comment on those futuristic red lamps...

Thanks Nick, glad you think it was worth the wait! I thought the red lamps came in around 1904, so I assumed as I'm modelling 1905 then red would be correct. Could you clarify when the red bodies came in, I'm very happy to repaint them black with the white diamond if that's more appropriate.

 

 

 

Hi Dave,

 

Red lights did appear at that time, but were only used on railmotors and autotrailers. Between 1903-ish and 1915 loco headlights had plain black bodies. Of course, it may have taken a few years before all the old diamonds, Ss, etc were painted over, just as the change to red lamps was probably not overnight during WW1.

 

Nick

[Ian Smith]

33 minutes ago, wenlock said:

Hi Ian,

 

Not sure how much this will help but Nick (Buffalo) made these comments about my Dean Goods when it sported red lamps:-)

 

Best wishes

 

Dave

 

 

On 10/12/2013 at 12:51, buffalo said:

Super resuly, Dave. Well worth waiting for.

 

Nick

 

ps. I'm surprised that Mr Dean didn't comment on those futuristic red lamps...

Thanks Nick, glad you think it was worth the wait! I thought the red lamps came in around 1904, so I assumed as I'm modelling 1905 then red would be correct. Could you clarify when the red bodies came in, I'm very happy to repaint them black with the white diamond if that's more appropriate.

 

 

 

Hi Dave,

 

Red lights did appear at that time, but were only used on railmotors and autotrailers. Between 1903-ish and 1915 loco headlights had plain black bodies. Of course, it may have taken a few years before all the old diamonds, Ss, etc were painted over, just as the change to red lamps was probably not overnight during WW1.

 

Nick

Dave, I remembered that this issue had come up before so I went and found Nick's post on your blog before I posted this thread. The problem I have is that Nick didn't quote his source so for me is in conflict with Great Western Way. I was hoping that someone more knowledgeable than me will be able to offer some "proof" rather than hearsay.

Ian

PS I hope to come down to Railex specifically to see Sherton Abbas next weekend.

[Miss Prism]

I couldn't get nearer any clarification of this matter, and gwr.org still carries contradictory information.

 

[wenlock]

51 minutes ago, Ian Smith said:

Dave, I remembered that this issue had come up before so I went and found Nick's post on your blog before I posted this thread. The problem I have is that Nick didn't quote his source so for me is in conflict with Great Western Way. I was hoping that someone more knowledgeable than me will be able to offer some "proof" rather than hearsay.

Ian

PS I hope to come down to Railex specifically to see Sherton Abbas next weekend.

Hi Ian, I thought you would probably want more concrete evidence!

 

Looking forward to meeting up at Railex:-)

[Noel]

I am producing a booklet for the 2mm Scale Association on Head Codes and lamps, and the issue of when the GWR started painting its lamps red lamps is one I have been trying to track down.

 

I've been through all the documents I can find that look relevant in the National Archives without finding anything so far, though I am still looking.

 

I did find a painting from around 1906 that showed lamps painted black, and the artist was well known and from other photos seems to have been fairly accurate.

 

From photos it is clear the diamond and S were painted over after 1903, but whether red or black is impossible to say from the photos of the time.

 

I had an idea about why the headlamps lamps on railmotors might have been painted red - the tail lamps had to be red, and the headcode was a single white light, so painting them both red would mean you could just move a filter on the lamps to change between red and white when reversing direction.

 

BTW, I did recently find documentation that confirmed the S on the back of lamps before 1903 was red on white (or at least it was in 1883).

 

Noel

[Harlequin]

Hi,

 

In Tony Atkins’ comprehensive book, “GWR Goods Train Working Volume One”, he devotes an entire chapter to “Headcodes, Head and Tail Lamps”.

 

He says that the headlamp body colour changed from black to red in 1903, at the same time as the GWR adopted the RCH-inspired headlamp codes.

 

Edit: The implication being that all head lamp bodies were painted red after that date but this may have been done gradually of course, as the lamps came in for repair. And he adds that in the London area the GW "retained green and blue/purple headlamps for some years after 1903"! More details in the book.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Harlequin

[Noel]

I would love to see contemporary documentary evidence about when head lamps were painted red. Several people say 1903, but no documentation has been referenced. Others say July 1915, again without documentation though it does seem a very specific date.

 

I had completely overlooked Atkins Goods Train Working in my research, and I own a copy! One query in it I have found the answer to, he asks (page 24) what happened in 1936 to the stock of red tail lamps with white stripes kept for use on special and divided trains: they were painted white with 2 red stripes (Supplement 1 to the 1936 GA, March 1937).

 

Another related query - when were tail lamps first painted red? Atkins says they were painted red from 1903, but I would not be surprised if they were painted red earlier.

 

Noel

 

 

[Noel]

Looking through the GWR suggestions committee minutes at Kew today, I found this suggestion from 1914:

 

 

This certainly seems to indicate that not all head and tail lamps were red (and it is long enough after 1903 it can't be referring to ones still to be repainted). The practice later, and probably then, was to use a loco headlamp with a red filter as a tail lamp when running light engine (many lamps had a movable filter built in). So the suggestion would make sense if at the time head lamps were painted black and tail lamps red (I think the latter is certainly true).

 

Sadly the minutes of the lamp Committee are not preserved at Kew.

 

Noel

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Looking through the GWR suggestions committee minutes at Kew today, I found this suggestion from 1914:

 

 

This certainly seems to indicate that not all head and tail lamps were red (and it is long enough after 1903 it can't be referring to ones still to be repainted). The practice later, and probably then, was to use a loco headlamp with a red filter as a tail lamp when running light engine (many lamps had a movable filter built in). So the suggestion would make sense if at the time head lamps were painted black and tail lamps red (I think the latter is certainly true).

 

Sadly the minutes of the lamp Committee are not preserved at Kew.

 

Noel

 

You could read that as referring to the lamp light colour, not the lamp body colour...

 

So it could be a suggestion to do the very thing you mentioned: to ensure that tail lamps on light engines show the red filter.

 

?

[Noel]

> You could read that as referring to the lamp light colour, not the lamp body colour...

 

No, it was mandatory to have a tail lamp shining red when lit on the rear of a light engine - rule 126 and 127 in the 1904 rule book, and still in force today.  So the light had to be red for a tail light, the train would have been reported by the first signalman if not. The colour of the lamp case did not matter - it was black, red, or white at various times without the rule changing.

 

Noel

[drduncan]

To change direction of the thread a little, does anyone have a reference for what the pre RCH head codes were?

DrDuncan

Edited September 6, 2019 by drduncan

[richbrummitt]

I think you can discern many of the pre grouping headcodes from Atkins, GWR goods train working. I don't know how these would differ from earlier practice I.e. pre C20th. though. 

[The Stationmaster]

On 15/08/2019 at 16:09, Noel said:

Looking through the GWR suggestions committee minutes at Kew today, I found this suggestion from 1914:

 

 

This certainly seems to indicate that not all head and tail lamps were red (and it is long enough after 1903 it can't be referring to ones still to be repainted). The practice later, and probably then, was to use a loco headlamp with a red filter as a tail lamp when running light engine (many lamps had a movable filter built in). So the suggestion would make sense if at the time head lamps were painted black and tail lamps red (I think the latter is certainly true).

 

Sadly the minutes of the lamp Committee are not preserved at Kew.

 

Noel

Suggestions in respect of side and tail lamps seem to have first emerged in 1913 following an article in the Great western Magazine seeking suggestions from members of staff.   The suggestions which had been submitted by, approximately mid June were read and considered at the meeting of the Rules & Regulations Sub Committee which took place between the 24th and 27th of that month.  Minute 86 of the committee recorded that 'there were none of the suggestions) the Committee could see their way to endorse'. However the Committee did recommend that a reminder be issued about the need to keep tail lamps properly painted and clean.

 

The Committee dealt with no further suggestions from staff in respect of tail lamps until its meeting held at the end of July 1917.  At that meeting (Minute 336) it agreed to recommend  adoption of  the suggestion that tail lamps on auto engines should be placed at the base of the chimney.  From that I would presume that no suggestion made in 1914 ever reached the Committee (which I think is the most likely explanation).  Or that if it reached the Secretary of the Committee it was not added to the agenda because it was not novel and whatever it proposed had been rejected the previous year.

 

On 07/09/2019 at 00:17, richbrummitt said:

I think you can discern many of the pre grouping headcodes from Atkins, GWR goods train working. I don't know how these would differ from earlier practice I.e. pre C20th. though. 

All I can come up with is that GWR headlamp code and train classification details were reissued in 1897 (and had not changed by 1901) 

[Mikkel]

I'm just picking this up again as I am about to paint loco lamps for my ca. 1902 Dean Goods. My understanding was that the diamond was on the side and the S on the rear, as also stated above and visible in many photos (heavily cropped):

 

 

But then I noticed these lamps, with the S on the side rather than at the rear.

 

 

 

I can't seem to find this mentioned anywhere. Pre-1890s perhaps?

 

[drduncan]

Hi Mikkel,

 

Whats the source and date of the photo?

 

DrDuncan

[Mikkel]

Hi Duncan, neither of the two photos have dates. The first is 2350 and described as early standard goods "1884 style" in the caption. No caption for the other photo and I can't make out the number of it, but I think an S2 boiler.

 

In the meantime I have found other examples, here again the S is on the l/h side:  https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1782.htm

 

And here the diamond is on the r/h side: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1783.htm

 

(when seen from the front)

 

To me this shows that there were in fact variations to what side the symbols were painted on. And thinking about it, it probably wouldn't have made much difference what side they were on. As I understand it, the socket style used for fitting the lamps allowed them to be turned any way, indeed that was how the symbols could be used in the first place.

 

Perhaps a small design change in the lamps affected what side the symbols were painted on. Looking at period photos I think I can see a difference even among those that had the socket design (some look more "bulky" than others). 

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Mikkel

[Harlequin]

Hi Mikkel,

 

Atkins says,

...from 1879 the sides of GW lamps were painted...

...a white diamond was often painted on a black ground on the left... and a red 'S' for special on the right...

Even so, some lamps had no side markings at all, and the 'S' may have been on the back of some lamps.

 

So, I think you have free reign!

 

Atkins also says that the mounting method officially changed from "spigots" to lamp irons in 1903, although the implementation lagged as usual.

 

(A wonderful photo of "Sebastopol" that has recently been posted on the "Everything Great Western" FB group shows a crystal clear image of a lamp with S on the back and the white diamond on the left hand side.)

 

[Mikkel]

Thanks Phil, I had missed the Atkins quote. 

 

I have not actually seen any example of S on the right, but will look for it. So far we have photo evidence for:

 

* S on the back

* S on the left

* Diamond on the left

* Diamond on the right

 

 

 

[Harlequin]

I can't post the whole image because I don't know who has the copyright but here's the lamp in the Sebastopol photo:

S on the rear, Diamond on the left (left with the lamp lens facing you)

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Harlequin

[Mikkel]

That's a very good illustration!

 

I've just had a look through Roger Carpenter's collection of photos showing passenger classes during the period 1902-1904. All those showing marked lamps have the diamond on the left, or no markings. So during that period at least, 'diamond on the left' seems to have been the common arrangement.

 

Not clear where the 'S' is on most of them, but here is a close crop of a Wolverhampton express in 1904. Quite rare to actually see the lamp turned in a photo, and presumably with the 'S' pointing forward.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

Fascinating and useful, since I aim to reach the stage @Mikkel's at with his Dean Goods. As a Tyro in the field of Great Western lamps, may I ask what the X and S markings were for?

[Mikkel]

According to Slinn in the 1978 version of GW Way, diamonds (if that's what you mean?) were used on the buffer beam or an attached board as part of the earliest headcodes. I'm guessing, but would assume that during daytime you might as well save on lamps by using a clear painted symbol (and see them better!).

 

Jumping forward in time, "from 1885, or perhaps a little earlier" the diamonds and S began to appear on lamps.  The S is for 'special' (Slinn says it was black btw).

 

The diamond and S allowed for more variations/options in terms of headcodes.  For example, Slinn provides the 1885 headcodes, which included:

 

Regular express goods/cattle

By day: white diamond on lamp under chimney

By night:  green light over r/h buffer, white light over l/h buffer

 

Regular or special fish, meat, parcels, new potatoes (yum!), broccoli

By day: One lamp under chimney showing 'S', another lamp in middle of buffer plank showing white diamond

By night: One green light under chimney, one white light in middle of buffer plank.

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Mikkel
cleaned up

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

diamonds (if that's what you mean?)

 

 

Thanks. An X is a diamond that hasn't quite come up properly on the headcode fruit machine.

 

19th century headcodes seem generally to have been much more variegated. Midland codes in the 1890s include the occasional blue light, along with red or green for certain codes for trains exercising running powers on other companies' lines - these might, I suppose, simply be the host companies' codes. Blue is probably synonymous with purple, called for at other dates. By 1910, white lights reigned supreme, the solitary exception being banking engines returning light from Bordesley Junction to Washwood Heath, which carried a white light above the centre of the bufferbeam and a purple light over the LH buffer, by night. By day, the code was a white board over the RH buffer. How did they manage at twighlight?

 

Then there was also the myriad of route indicator boards carried on the lampirons of engines working trains to the various off-Midland passenger stations, goods depots and exchange sidings.

 

I'd like to see Tony Wright model a terminus.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Compound2632

[Penrhos1920]

Where can I get a copy of the Midland early headcodes please?  Oops, wrong place. Sorry I know this is a GWR thread