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Imaginary Locomotives


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If Holcroft and Jarvis had been in charge and started with the 9f it can maybe interes some hove ofsprings could have looked.

A three cylinder compound 4-8-0 can do anything a Pacific will do and burn less coal and for smaller jobs a 4-6-0 with either three or two compound cylinders

 

 

3usefull.jpg

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1 hour ago, Niels said:

Deleted

 

3usefull.jpg

Not so sure about these 2.  The 4-8-0 will pull anything a pacific can and might be better starting and on the banks, but it'll not ride as well.  It won't burn less coal, either; even if it burns less coal per cylinder stroke than a comparable size pacific (DoG draughted properly), the smaller driving wheels will increase the amount of coal per mile, and reduce the top speed.  And you can't increase the rear driving wheel diameter because the firebox is in the way.

 

As for the 4-6-0, it doesn't look any more capable than the 4MT 75xxx.  The firebox/boiler/smokebox reminds me of those Canadian 4-4-4s with 7' drivers, which were very fast and successful, and this format might have had a use in short haul fast work with lighter trains.  How about an Oxford-Paddington non stop flyer 80 minute buffet service?

 

As it is, it just burns too much coal, as much as a 9F, and produces too much steam to be economically efficient, and I challenge even the worst fireman to keep the safety valves from lifting once the fire is lit.  The riding looks as if it will be poor for the same reasons as it was on Churchward's counties, and the loco looks unbalanced and top heavy.  She'd certainly raise steam quickly, assuming you put a top feed on it, but what would she do with it?  She's too heavy for anything but main line work, especially with 3 cylinders, and it would've been hard to sell compounding in the 50s or 60s.  The cylinders are big and will do nothing for the already bad riding, though a 3 cylinder compound layout might improve that.

Edited by The Johnster
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4 hours ago, RedGemAlchemist said:

I had no idea this happened. This is pretty funny actually.

There must be more than one version of that streamlining as in JH Russell's Southern Locomotives there is a different picture with the raked back cab & windows as in runs as required's model picture.

The windows are still painted on though........

Edited by melmerby
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Churchward, at the instigation of one of his deputies, trialled one of the Atbara Class with a large round top firebox boiler and a large cab. Apparently the crews hated the big  cab, and it was taken off in short order, and the large boiler wasn't a success either and was replaced a couple of years later. But what if it had been a success? Here's a Churchward County 4-4-0 boiler with the big boiler and side window cab, and I've matched it with a much larger 4,000 gallon Hawksworth tender, as the original 3,500 gallon tender looked out of proportion to me.

County with earlcawdor boiler and bigtender..jpg

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11 minutes ago, JimC said:

Churchward, at the instigation of one of his deputies, trialled one of the Atbara Class with a large round top firebox boiler and a large cab. Apparently the crews hated the big  cab, and it was taken off in short order, and the large boiler wasn't a success either and was replaced a couple of years later. But what if it had been a success? Here's a Churchward County 4-4-0 boiler with the big boiler and side window cab, and I've matched it with a much larger 4,000 gallon Hawksworth tender, as the original 3,500 gallon tender looked out of proportion to me.

County with earlcawdor boiler and bigtender..jpg

Cute. I might build something similar if you don't mind :p

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35 minutes ago, JimC said:

Churchward, at the instigation of one of his deputies, trialled one of the Atbara Class with a large round top firebox boiler and a large cab. Apparently the crews hated the big  cab, and it was taken off in short order, and the large boiler wasn't a success either and was replaced a couple of years later. But what if it had been a success? Here's a Churchward County 4-4-0 boiler with the big boiler and side window cab, and I've matched it with a much larger 4,000 gallon Hawksworth tender, as the original 3,500 gallon tender looked out of proportion to me.

County with earlcawdor boiler and bigtender..jpg

The Churchward boiler design was the benchmark for efficiency right through to the end of steam, so why would Swindon take a step backwards? Round top boilers are resorted to, purely to fit the loading gauge. The GWR didn't have that issue. Hence why the experiment was short lived. Similarly, the Great Bear was an experiment to ascertain the benefits of a wide firebox. It proved less efficient than Churchwards proven narrow firebox design so was never repeated. Railways having to burn coal of a lesser calorific value than Welsh steam coal had to resort to bigger wider fireboxes out of necessity.

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Well, I'm not going to argue that Churchward was wrong to abandon the big boiler Atbara, that's for sure. 

My understanding is the LNER considered belpaire boxes too expensive to build and maintain, so it wasn't just loading gauge considerations. 

 

As for the Bear, that I think was one of Churchward's rare errors of judgement. I believe Churchward vetoed a combustion chamber because they'd been so troublesome on the Krugers, but with the benefit of hindsight I reckon he should have resolved the problems rather than end up with a boiler that was surely  too long in the tubes and too short of heating area in the firebox. The result AIUI was that even with the very large heating area in the superheater the steam chest temperature was too low - a good bit less than the Stars I believe.

Of course the other advantage the GWR had was that they didn't need to get a single locomotive all the way to Scotland without clogging up the grate.

Edited by JimC
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On 19/10/2019 at 17:33, melmerby said:

a1cd4c3f8cb88e67726881e95b17ba08.jpg

AAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!  My eyes, my beautiful eyes...

 

The leading drivers' splasher is in the wrong place.

 

4 hours ago, JimC said:

Well, I'm not going to argue that Churchward was wrong to abandon the big boiler Atbara, that's for sure. 

My understanding is the LNER considered belpaire boxes too expensive to build and maintain, so it wasn't just loading gauge considerations. 

 

As for the Bear, that I think was one of Churchward's rare errors of judgement. I believe Churchward vetoed a combustion chamber because they'd been so troublesome on the Krugers, but with the benefit of hindsight I reckon he should have resolved the problems rather than end up with a boiler that was surely  too long in the tubes and too short of heating area in the firebox. The result AIUI was that even with the very large heating area in the superheater the steam chest temperature was too low - a good bit less than the Stars I believe.

Of course the other advantage the GWR had was that they didn't need to get a single locomotive all the way to Scotland without clogging up the grate.

At the time the Great Bear was built, neither did anyone else... ECML trains changed locos at York and Newcastle, and WCML at Crewe and Carlisle.  The Midland/GSW alternative changed at Leeds and Carlisle.  The longest non stop run on the GW in those days was probably Paddington-Newport until the Berks & Hants cutoffs were completed.  Great Bear seldom made it past Bristol.  You might argue that the LMS corrected Great Bear's issues with the Princess Royal class, which could (and regularly did) go all the way to Scotland non stop (ok, a pause at Upperby) without clogging up the grate.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

AAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!  My eyes, my beautiful eyes...

 

The leading drivers' splasher is in the wrong place.

 

 

Yes it is hideous.

 

Isn't that a fairing over the reversing linkage?

Edited by melmerby
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On 21/10/2019 at 12:24, JimC said:

Churchward, at the instigation of one of his deputies, trialled one of the Atbara Class with a large round top firebox boiler and a large cab. Apparently the crews hated the big  cab, and it was taken off in short order, and the large boiler wasn't a success either and was replaced a couple of years later. But what if it had been a success? Here's a Churchward County 4-4-0 boiler with the big boiler and side window cab, and I've matched it with a much larger 4,000 gallon Hawksworth tender, as the original 3,500 gallon tender looked out of proportion to me.

Isn't that a LNER D49 in GWR livery?

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On 18/10/2019 at 21:41, relaxinghobby said:

Just suppose in the early 1950s the Southern region was looking for 4MT and 5MT class locos particularly for their West of England Services to Exeter, Plymouth and the North Cornwall lines.

Perhaps if they were not willing to accept the new British Rail Standard classes and Bulleid still remained as Chief Locomotive Engineer they may have tried to come up with something using established Southern Railway components and practices.

 

So just imagine the wheels and works from a Bulleid West Country pacific and the excellent medium-sized boiler form the Schools class to provide the power. It could either be a 2 cylinder or a slightly more powerful but heavier 3 cylinder type like its West Country class parent. The Southern railway maverick engineers have retained the Bulleid chain-driven valve gear and perhaps even used the more efficient poppet valve gear, still driven by Mr Bulleid's bicycle chain system. It is hard to tell from the picture.

 

IMGP0086a.JPG.122a86ee0400c9e2e6a78b9a2fc88447.JPG

 

Here we see a test of different tenders, to provide coal and water for the extended range available from a large tender needed for a run down to the far west of England. They are preparing for trials and as a comparison, some time will be spent using the old Sou'western 8 wheeler and the big Bulleid 6 wheeler.

 

IMGP0080a.JPG.769df718e899150843514b4875c87599.JPG

 

Which will be best?

 

Maybe even to be ultra-modern and labour saving there will be an oil-burning example of this loco, always hoping for a handy type that can do everything a Bulleid pacific can but at a much cheaper price.

 

Once the best option is found the loco can be sent away for its final painting.

 

Why does this experiment take place at an out of the way siding far from the notice and control of the national British Railways big wigs? Politics, of course, those maverick engineers of the Southern Region hope to present a coup, a shazam, a new class of versatile and inexpensive loco, a new and proven working “here one we have done earlier”.

 

It could be could the New Skools class or the Bulleid Schools or the BS 1.

 

 


IMGP0126a.JPG.6000ee59a68c8dce640b2e30a3e9f354.JPG,

Everyones a loco designer! So to answer these critiques I've sent the Bulleid/Schools 4-6-0 back to the works for some minor modifications.
Back in 1963 when the Schools class was being scraped ( Wiki ) there could have been a few spare Schools boilers available in good condition.
For the Johnster and Ramblin Rich,  there is now a Bulleid West Country Cab so to can match the tender better
Did anyone notice I had forgotten to re-attached the smoke deflectors because the footplate and buffers where moved forward by 9 " or 3mm in scale terms the deflectors needed to be moved forward as well.


The curves of the footplate have been removed so it looks more modern and utilitarian
The large headlight will be useful for crossing Dartmoor and the wastes of Bodinmoor after nightfall. A new steam turbo-dynamo must be mounted on the other side.
A 4-6-0 with the same boiler as a 4-4-0 must have a smaller axle loading?
For axle loading back to Wiki,  the weight on a Schools coupled axle and wheels is given as 21ton plus 21t. If the same wight is spread over 3 axles it would be 14t + 14t +14t

so a much lighter load and if these are 2 cylinder locos the front ends would be lighter than the Schools 13t + 13t bogie weight.

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16 minutes ago, relaxinghobby said:

 


IMGP0126a.JPG.6000ee59a68c8dce640b2e30a3e9f354.JPG,

Everyones a loco designer! So to answer these critiques I've sent the Bulleid/Schools 4-6-0 back to the works for some minor modifications.
Back in 1963 when the Schools class was being scraped ( Wiki ) there could have been a few spare Schools boilers available in good condition.
For the Johnster and Ramblin Rich,  there is now a Bulleid West Country Cab so to can match the tender better
Did anyone notice I had forgotten to re-attached the smoke deflectors because the footplate and buffers where moved forward by 9 " or 3mm in scale terms the deflectors needed to be moved forward as well.


The curves of the footplate have been removed so it looks more modern and utilitarian
The large headlight will be useful for crossing Dartmoor and the wastes of Bodinmoor after nightfall. A new steam turbo-dynamo must be mounted on the other side.
A 4-6-0 with the same boiler as a 4-4-0 must have a smaller axle loading?
For axle loading back to Wiki,  the weight on a Schools coupled axle and wheels is given as 21ton plus 21t. If the same wight is spread over 3 axles it would be 14t + 14t +14t

so a much lighter load and if these are 2 cylinder locos the front ends would be lighter than the Schools 13t + 13t bogie weight.

You also need to change the positioning of the splashers and add an extra one.

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22 minutes ago, runs as required said:

So did Holden's GE Stratford cab originate on a Swindon drawing board?

Not really, AIUI Wright was very influenced by locos that were already in existence in the North eastern quarter of the country.

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