Zimo MX600R

[Mallard60022]

Good morning. Just checking in case I make an error. I have had a look at the Zimo manual on line, however I know very little about adjusting decoders.

I want to increase the top speed of a Bachman Standard 5 just fitted with this by a fellow modeller. Loco works absolutely fine but the top speed is just a bit too slow as set. I am using NCE P Cab on Prog Track.  If I need to provide any other info please say...…….

Many thanks.

Phil

[WIMorrison]

You need to check what speed is set in CV5, this defines the maximum and that would be 255 which is 'full speed'. if you adjust this then you should also change CV6 to compnesate for the change to CV5. On a Zimo you should also check that CV57 hasnt been altered from the default 255.

 

This should show you how to do it

 

 

[Mallard60022]

Thanks matey. Never even thought of looking at that sort of U Tube thing.

XLNT.

P

[RFS]

The gearing of the Bachmann Standard 5 is such that the top is speed is low. I have two of them with Lenz Standard+ decoders and the maximum speed that I see is around 60mph as measured by Traincontroller software. That's OK with me as any faster does not really look right, but I suspect it might not be to everyone's taste. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

46 minutes ago, RFS said:

The gearing of the Bachmann Standard 5 is such that the top is speed is low...

That's the fundamental problem. Bachmann meant well, going for good low speed control from the 40:1 gearing. Furthermore, it has poor weight distribution, a softly sprung leading driving axle and an oversprung front bogie; and actually slips on its own with the tender detached! With a load on, it slips even more...

 

I think the long thread of diagnosis and cures, which we worked out between participants 'on the hoof', was on a now lost ur-RMeb, so the significant items in summary.

 

Substituting a Mashima 1426 helps, as this motor runs faster.

Stretch the leading driver spring.

Reduce the spring on the bogie to about a quarter its original length so it is very softly sprung, about 15g/half oz.

Rip out the low weight plastic box for the decoder and the decoder socket, fill the resulting void above the coupled wheelbase solid with lead.

Sheet lead can go largely invisibly on the cab floor and a shaped piece under the cab roof.

(For DCC, hardwire a decoder, locating it in the smokebox, mine has a Lenz Silver, the Lenz standard or the Zimo MX600 will be an easy fit.)

Beware the Jabberwock speedodrive, it will make the model lurch like a three legged dog until reset 'just right', very tweaky indeed. Some would suggest disconnecting completely from the wheel.

 

On the original motor, that will yield a scale 80mph with 12V at the motor terminals, with enough traction to have a ten coach load on; with the Mashima motor substituted it will easily go at scale for the  90mph that the prototype could achieve.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by 34theletterbetweenB&D
fuller expression and speelink krekshuns

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, RFS said:

The gearing of the Bachmann Standard 5 is such that the top is speed is low. I have two of them with Lenz Standard+ decoders and the maximum speed that I see is around 60mph as measured by Traincontroller software. That's OK with me as any faster does not really look right, but I suspect it might not be to everyone's taste. 

Um, I see what you mean. The above resetting has made no difference to the top speed at all.

 

16 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

That's the fundamental problem. Bachmann meant well, going for good low speed control from the 40:1 gearing. Furthermore, it has poor weight distribution, a softly sprung leading driving axle and an oversprung front bogie; and actually slips on its own with the tender detached! With a load on, it slips even more...

 

I think the long thread of diagnosis and cures, which we worked out between participants 'on the hoof', was on a now lost ur-RMeb, so the significant items in summary.

 

Substituting a Mashima 1426 helps, as this motor runs faster.

Stretch the leading driver spring.

Reduce the spring on the bogie to about a quarter its original length so it is very softly sprung, about 15g/half oz.

Rip out the low weight plastic box for the decoder and the decoder socket, fill the resulting void above the coupled wheelbase solid with lead.

Sheet lead can go largely invisibly on the cab floor and a shaped piece under the cab roof.

(For DCC, hardwire a decoder, locating it in the smokebox, mine has a Lenz Silver, the Lenz standard or the Zimo MX600 will be an easy fit.)

Beware the Jabberwock speedodrive, it will make the model lurch like a three legged dog until reset 'just right', very tweaky indeed. Some would suggest disconnecting completely from the wheel.

 

On the original motor, that will yield a scale 80mph with 12V at the motor terminals, with enough traction to have a ten coach load on; with the Mashima motor substituted it will easily go at scale for the  90mph that the prototype could achieve.

 

 

I am running this on the SR WOEML Salisbury Exeter and it would need a top of around 90 through Seaton Junction on express workings! At the moment it is on the 11 coach Okehampton Car Train and is sure footed, however thanks for the Speedo link tip as it is a hobbly donkey at the moment. It appears to doing about 40 mph max....not enough for my needs at all sadly.

How simple is the motor sub; do you happen to know?

It has a Zimo 600 as per the OP Title.

I think I can tell now why it was a Rails pre used but in pristine nick item! Pah!

Thanks

Phil

Edited October 28, 2019 by Mallard60022

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

3 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

...How simple is the motor sub; do you happen to know?...

Straightforward in that the 1426 motor fits the plastic clip in motor mount, but only possible once you have the worm off the Bachmann motor shaft, they can be on very tight in my experience. (Busted my 30 year old worm puller on a Bach A1 motor, and had to buy a new one, grrrr.)

Tim Easter was one who definitely did the motor replacement, so he might be consulted.

 

I have gone a different road, and turned up the DCC track voltage so that there is 15V at the motor terminals, that gets my std 5 and a couple of other RTR slugs galloping along at scale maxima.

 

Another idea which I am using: the fine mechanism in the currently cheap Heljan class 128. Substitute 14mm wheels off the Class 26/27 and you have a BR 64' coach mechanism capable of scale 120mph. Stuff that into a suitable near windowless coach body if your Okeyhampton car train has such, and it will wing the train along ...

[RFS]

I do not know whether the Zimo decoder has this facility or not, but with the Lenz Standard+ you can turn an EMF switch in CV50 Bit 6 which is explained thus:

 

"The decoder still has a so-called EMF switch which makes it possible to adjust the decoder to different motor types. Depending on the motor type used, it is possible that a digitally controlled locomotive cannot reach an adequate maximum speed compared to a locomotive in conventional operation. If this is the case, activate your EMF switch by setting Bit 6 in CV 50. The locomotive will then reach a higher maximum speed while the minimum speed is also slightly increased."

 

Although my two examples have a max speed of about 60 which is OK for my needs, they have no problem with 7 Bachmann MK1s. I have removed the speedo cable but not made any other changes.

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Straightforward in that the 1426 motor fits the plastic clip in motor mount, but only possible once you have the worm off the Bachmann motor shaft, they can be on very tight in my experience. (Busted my 30 year old worm puller on a Bach A1 motor, and had to buy a new one, grrrr.)

Tim Easter was one who definitely did the motor replacement, so he might be consulted.

 

I have gone a different road, and turned up the DCC track voltage so that there is 15V at the motor terminals, that gets my std 5 and a couple of other RTR slugs galloping along at scale maxima.

 

Another idea which I am using: the fine mechanism in the currently cheap Heljan class 128. Substitute 14mm wheels off the Class 26/27 and you have a BR 64' coach mechanism capable of scale 120mph. Stuff that into a suitable near windowless coach body if your Okeyhampton car train has such, and it will wing the train along ...

Cheers buddy. Some good tips there. It's not urgent but I do like my loco's to do what I want.

 

P

[WIMorrison]

Can I suggest that you set CV8=8 before you go any further and start ripping stuff apart?

 

this will reset the chip to default on Loco ID 3, but most importantly it will also clear any custom speed curves and rest CV57

 

if it is still poorly after this reset then you need to look at the other suggestions 

[Mallard60022]

Will do.

[Crosland]

2 hours ago, RFS said:

I do not know whether the Zimo decoder has this facility or not, but with the Lenz Standard+ you can turn an EMF switch in CV50 Bit 6 which is explained thus:

 

"The decoder still has a so-called EMF switch which makes it possible to adjust the decoder to different motor types. Depending on the motor type used, it is possible that a digitally controlled locomotive cannot reach an adequate maximum speed compared to a locomotive in conventional operation. If this is the case, activate your EMF switch by setting Bit 6 in CV 50. The locomotive will then reach a higher maximum speed while the minimum speed is also slightly increased."

 

Lenz are notoriously poor at describing their motor control. I don't think I have ever seen an explanation of what their 5 motor types are.

The are only really two difference in a digitally controlled loco. A small voltage drop in the decoder and back EMF sampling. To sample Back EMF, the motor drive is turned off for brief periods. This limits the effective maximum voltage seen by the motor. Speed control with Back EMF gives most advantage at low speeds and a decoder should be able to disable it at higher speeds. I assume this us what Lenz are referring to as the EMF switch.

 

The Zimo documentation is, on the other hand, very comprehensive. See section 3.6 http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/MX-KleineDecoder_E.pdf esp. the section on load copmpensation. 

 

The top speed of a loco is ultimately determined by the track voltage, motor characteristics and gearing., There's nothing you can do to change that "you cannae change the laws of physics, cap'n", other than replace one or other with something more appropriate to your requirements.

 

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, Crosland said:

 

Lenz are notoriously poor at describing their motor control. I don't think I have ever seen an explanation of what their 5 motor types are.

The are only really two difference in a digitally controlled loco. A small voltage drop in the decoder and back EMF sampling. To sample Back EMF, the motor drive is turned off for brief periods. This limits the effective maximum voltage seen by the motor. Speed control with Back EMF gives most advantage at low speeds and a decoder should be able to disable it at higher speeds. I assume this us what Lenz are referring to as the EMF switch.

 

The Zimo documentation is, on the other hand, very comprehensive. See section 3.6 http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/MX-KleineDecoder_E.pdf esp. the section on load copmpensation. 

 

The top speed of a loco is ultimately determined by the track voltage, motor characteristics and gearing., There's nothing you can do to change that "you cannae change the laws of physics, cap'n", other than replace one or other with something more appropriate to your requirements.

 

The loco reads as drawing just about 0.20amps at full tilt, whereas most of mine draw between 0.40 and 0.60. I'm also feeding nearly 1.8 amps into the NCE cab.

Yup, the Zim doc is about 79 pages (not all for the 600). I'm not that fussed as it can go on fitted vans, however it would have been good to have seen it on a main express circa 1963/4.

Thanks for all your help everyone and by the way my reset to default CV is 7 on the NCE Cab an it does indeed reset to 3 and is the same sort of speed on that setting, just a bit quick off the mark.

All was not wasted though as I adjusted the valve gear return crank angles as they were rubbish! They now look fairly prototypical.

ATB

Phil

[Crosland]

3 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

The loco reads as drawing just about 0.20amps at full tilt, whereas most of mine draw between 0.40 and 0.60. 

 

That's will be a combination of the particular motor and the low gearing.

[WIMorrison]

10 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

..and by the way my reset to default CV is 7 on the NCE Cab an it does indeed reset to 3...

 

The reset on a Zimo chipset is CV8=8, CV7 is read only and is set by the manufacturer. The combination  of CV7 and 8 are what identify the chipset.

 

You cannot reset a chip by using CV7

 

 

[pauliebanger]

There's lots of info that you can get from reading CVs on ZIMO decoders.

 

CV7 is the main version number of the decoder software loaded, (A.K.A. firmware).

CV65 is the decoder software sub version.

 

Different models of ZIMO decoder may have identical values here as this refers to software, not hardware.

 

As these CVs identify the software currently loaded, the values will change if the decoder is updated.

 

On the other hand, the fixed values in CVs 250, 251, 252 and 253 together will reveal the decoder's unique Serial Number, whilst CV250 also identifies the decoder type.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[RFS]

21 hours ago, Crosland said:

 

Lenz are notoriously poor at describing their motor control. I don't think I have ever seen an explanation of what their 5 motor types are.

The are only really two difference in a digitally controlled loco. A small voltage drop in the decoder and back EMF sampling. To sample Back EMF, the motor drive is turned off for brief periods. This limits the effective maximum voltage seen by the motor. Speed control with Back EMF gives most advantage at low speeds and a decoder should be able to disable it at higher speeds. I assume this us what Lenz are referring to as the EMF switch.

 

The Zimo documentation is, on the other hand, very comprehensive. See section 3.6 http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/MX-KleineDecoder_E.pdf esp. the section on load copmpensation. 

 

The top speed of a loco is ultimately determined by the track voltage, motor characteristics and gearing., There's nothing you can do to change that "you cannae change the laws of physics, cap'n", other than replace one or other with something more appropriate to your requirements.

 

 

As I understand it, the EMF Switch, and the motor type, are two different things although both are specified in CV 50. To this end I've done a couple of tests today with my 2 Bachmann Standard 5s with both showing similar results. I'm able to record exact speed using Traincontroller profiling of a single speed step.

 

By default, max speed is around 55 mph. OK perhaps for my needs

With the EMF switch enabled (ie CV50=32) max speed increases by around 5mph

Disabling Back EMF altogether (CV50=64) increases max speed to 65mph.

Trying different motor type values made no difference at all.

 

I'm using LDT RS8 occupancy detectors and I realize that these use voltage drop of about 1.5v for detection purposes, so I could increase the booster output that to overcome that, but I'm happy with how things are.

 

With a Zimo decoder you may be able to set a cut-off point for Back EMF so that it's only disabled at higher speeds.

Edited October 29, 2019 by RFS

[pauliebanger]

Since the OP has a ZIMO, some relevant CVs might help.

 

These will release the maximum performance form the decoder. The model is low geared so to increase speed further either change gear ratio or pump more volts into the track .

 

CV5 = 1 (sets default speed curve)
CV6 = 1 (sets default half value, actually not linearly half but a good starting point)

CV10 = X (Where X = cut-off point for reduction in BEMF, try values around 120. Also see CV113)

CV57 = 0

CV113 = 0 Reduced BEMF intensity when speed step specified in CV10 has been reached. BEMF compensation not as important at higher speeds so use value 0 to reduce it to zero.

 

Also worth reviewing value in CV3, low value will give more rapis acceleration. (I know it's not acceleration which is the issue, but you might not hit top speed on you layout if this is set very high.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[NIK]

Hi Phil,

 

Once everything suggested has been exhausted then changing CV#57 (decoder voltage reference) to 255 may result in a slightly higher top speed. 

 

I've used it before to maximise top speed.

 

The downside might be less predictable speeds if the DCC voltage varies.

 

A current of 0.2A matches with the Bachmann OO steam locos I've measured.

 

I've found many of the recent releases of loco types I've tested have a top speed lower than the prototype.

Curves, gradients and the friction of vehicles being hauled may also reduce the top speed.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

[Mallard60022]

19 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

The reset on a Zimo chipset is CV8=8, CV7 is read only and is set by the manufacturer. The combination  of CV7 and 8 are what identify the chipset.

 

You cannot reset a chip by using CV7

 

 

Oh, my apologies. As you can tell I do not really know what I am up to and doubt I'll get a lot better at this. OK I'll have go at the 8/8 you suggested.

I shall also have a fiddle with those other CV values. If all else fails it will be back again to 8/8!

Thanks.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Mallard60022]

 

Well chaps, I tried all of those and it made little difference. No more top speed but smoother range up to notch 24/28 on the P Cab Instead of max power at notch 12 on the P Cab, and drawing about 0.35 amps on the main line with just three free running Comet Bulleids and a Plassi SR LWB Van. I'll have to live with this for now.

P

Edited October 29, 2019 by Mallard60022

[RedgateModels]

Sounds like you have the decoder set up as best you can for the loco, the lack of speed seems to be down to the gearing. I've got an identical loco but on Summat Colliery speed is never an issue!

 

Just for everyone's reference what CV settings did you end up with? as a good smooth speed curve is always a good thing

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎28‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 17:43, Crosland said:

Lenz are notoriously poor at describing their motor control. I don't think I have ever seen an explanation of what their 5 motor types are...

My one kvetch with their otherwise uniformly good documentation. Normally they run any decently performing mechanism on the default settings so well, that I don't have the need to alter anything.

 

However, over a decade ago before I became aware that Zimo had a considerable suite of well documented motor taming CV's on their decoders, I found that messing around with CV50 bit 3 was effective in getting motors with poor starting torque to get moving reliably on speed step 1. And that's all I know,,,

[Mallard60022]

5 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

Sounds like you have the decoder set up as best you can for the loco, the lack of speed seems to be down to the gearing. I've got an identical loco but on Summat Colliery speed is never an issue!

 

Just for everyone's reference what CV settings did you end up with? as a good smooth speed curve is always a good thing

As suggested by pauliebanger, but there is a little 'blip' around the mid speed range (about notch 14ish) where the loco seems to just hesitate a little for a few notches before accelerating smoothly again.

P

Edited October 30, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Guest Mancunian]

On 28/10/2019 at 12:40, RFS said:

The gearing of the Bachmann Standard 5 is such that the top is speed is low. I have two of them with Lenz Standard+ decoders and the maximum speed that I see is around 60mph as measured by Traincontroller software. That's OK with me as any faster does not really look right, but I suspect it might not be to everyone's taste. 

 

Blimey....You have got to be kidding me..???   The Standard 5 73000 class (ex-9H/26F Patricroft) were anything but slow in the hands of the 6J Holyhead crews!!  The Irish Mail and relief Mails used to *FLY* to such an extent that they were literally tilting alternately (Double-Headed) as they hit the curve, passing Marine Lake and entering Rhyl.   

The Bachmann Std 5 4-6-0's (73000 class) are a great little model, I have many, and providing they're serviced regularly, fitted with a decent chip, the top speed can be adjusted with CV5 and then half that value for CV6 when using the Zimo chip as stated...a really good decoder.