1970's western region coach formations/routes/diagrams help required

[samdeacs07]

Hi all, probably been asked and answered but there's too many to posts to scroll through.

I need some help in organising my MK1 and MK2 coaching stock, I model 1970's western region, specifically Penzance-Bristol/Exeter-southcoast trains.

I've got mainly mk1's in open and corridor and a couple of Mk2a's

And I just would like to arrange them in prototypical rakes.

 

Thanks

[Philou]

Me too, me too. I have seen in various threads that some contributors just seem to pull out of a hat, train diagrams not only for a region, but to a (nearly) particular day and time.

 

Is there any possibility of a kind soul letting me/us into the secret?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

PS: I'm a bit of a tart regarding my stock collection, but it would be useful if I could get stock formations looking right.

[keefer]

Robert Carroll (robertcwp on RMWeb) has the BR Coaching Stock group at groups.io (was a Yahoo group)

https://brcoachingstock.groups.io

 

Lots of pics, files and access to regional carriage working notices for the British Railways/BR period.

 

Although there may seem too many threads on here, I would recommend reading through them anyway - if only to learn more about why certain trains & formations were the way they were and how & why they changed over the years.

Also, given there are many threads already on this site, is there any point in creating another one which goes over the same ground again?

It may seem a bit of a pain, but it could also be called research

Edited November 7, 2019 by keefer

[samdeacs07]

30 minutes ago, keefer said:

Although there may seem too many threads on here, I would recommend reading through them anyway - if only to learn more about why certain trains & formations were the way they were and how & why they changed over the years.

Also, given there are many threads already on this site, is there any point in creating another one which goes over the same ground again?

It may seem a bit of a pain, but it could also be called research

Thanks for your reply, and I will check out the link youve given.

unfortunately for me, I only have access to a mobile phone so reading through hundreds of threads and the thousands of replies on such a device is very very frustrating, especially if I press the back button by mistake and have to start again, also, there are many threads on coaching but not that I can find specific to the area I asked about and that isn't just numbers of coaches, running numbers aren't the top priority for me at the moment but just getting a basic knowledge/understanding of what order coaches would have been in i.e TSO, BSO etc.

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, samdeacs07 said:

Thanks for your reply, and I will check out the link youve given.

unfortunately for me, I only have access to a mobile phone so reading through hundreds of threads and the thousands of replies on such a device is very very frustrating, especially if I press the back button by mistake and have to start again, also, there are many threads on coaching but not that I can find specific to the area I asked about and that isn't just numbers of coaches, running numbers aren't the top priority for me at the moment but just getting a basic knowledge/understanding of what order coaches would have been in i.e TSO, BSO etc.

 

Look in the Files Section of that group on group.io and you will see folders for:

 

Carriage Workings - there is a PDF file that provides a listing of a bunch of carriage working documents that can be downloaded, including a number for WR in the 70s - these give you the typical stock to form given trains.

 

The Train Working and Formations folder has some PDFs of recorded vehicle numbers, there is a Paddington document that may help.

 

It may also, if you can get to one, be worth checking a local library to see if they offer computers for Internet access which will make searching in general much easier - a lot can be done in a short period if you aren't struggling on a small screen.

 

[mdvle]

3 hours ago, Philou said:

Me too, me too. I have seen in various threads that some contributors just seem to pull out of a hat, train diagrams not only for a region, but to a (nearly) particular day and time.

 

Is there any possibility of a kind soul letting me/us into the secret?

 

The secret is putting in the time.

 

Either someone puts in the time (and frequently money) to track down old documents and then graciously make them publicly available, or they spent the time trackside to write down vehicle numbers and kept their notes and now graciously share that information.

 

Some research can also be done by doing an image search on Google (images.google.com) or searching Flickr to find images of trains in the right era (this will often focus on the engine, but you might be able to identify or count coaches and it can help with paint schemes depending on era).

 

For the rest of us, it is a matter of paying attention to threads that are found and learning, searching (including searching on RMweb), and generally spending the time to learn what is available and from it.

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by mdvle

[The Pilotman]

6 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Some research can also be done by doing an image search on Google (images.google.com) or searching Flickr to find images of trains in the right era (this will often focus on the engine, but you might be able to identify or count coaches and it can help with paint schemes depending on era).

 

 

I agree. Flickr is an extremely useful tool for looking up train formations. I use it a lot. 

[Philou]

I agree regarding research on the web - being doing it for a while regarding prototype stations for my future layout. Counting the coaches is relatively easy but where I come unstuck is being able to determine the difference between a CK and a TO (for example) or the difference between a Collett and a Hawksworth.

 

Thanks to the threads on here, at least I have learnt that most passenger trains (even prior to nationalisation), only had perhaps one or two first class coaches in the formation (one faux pas avoided).

 

But thanks for heads-up anyway.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[samdeacs07]

34 minutes ago, Philou said:

I agree regarding research on the web - being doing it for a while regarding prototype stations for my future layout. Counting the coaches is relatively easy but where I come unstuck is being able to determine the difference between a CK and a TO (for example) or the difference between a Collett and a Hawksworth.

 

Thanks to the threads on here, at least I have learnt that most passenger trains (even prior to nationalisation), only had perhaps one or two first class coaches in the formation (one faux pas avoided).

 

But thanks for heads-up anyway.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

This is my problem also, I've searched Google and Flickr and it's great but as mentioned above, it's usually just details on the loco and the train service, I cannot see the difference between coaching stock, only if it's 1st 2nd or buffet etc, no chance in telling the difference between MK1 and Mk2a's 

Thanks 

[DY444]

Trouble is the 1970s in the South West was a moving feast for both London trains and NE/SW so it depends what bit of the 1970s you are talking about. 

 

The WR usually put new stock on Padd-Bristol/South Wales first and what was displaced then went onto Padd-West Country.  So in very general terms when Mk2 Air Cons started on Bristol/South Wales the AB Mk2 non Air Con sets were moved to West Country services.  Similarly when the HSTs started the Mk2 Air Con sets were moved. 

 

NE/NW-SW services were the same.  The stock for these services came variously from the WR, ER and LMR and reflected the cascade policy of those regions and again as the decade proceeded the move from Mk1 -> AB Mk2 non Air Con -> Mk2 Air Con on these services proceeded too.

 

The locomotives employed reflected the stock.  Warships/Westerns/Peaks/47s (ie VB/SH) then became Westerns/Peaks/47s/50s (ie DB/SH or DB/EH) became Peaks/47s/50s (ie DB/EH)

 

So basically pick a year!

[samdeacs07]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

Trouble is the 1970s in the South West was a moving feast for both London trains and NE/SW so it depends what bit of the 1970s you are talking about. 

 

The WR usually put new stock on Padd-Bristol/South Wales first and what was displaced then went onto Padd-West Country.  So in very general terms when Mk2 Air Cons started on Bristol/South Wales the AB Mk2 non Air Con sets were moved to West Country services.  Similarly when the HSTs started the Mk2 Air Con sets were moved. 

 

NE/NW-SW services were the same.  The stock for these services came variously from the WR, ER and LMR and reflected the cascade policy of those regions and again as the decade proceeded the move from Mk1 -> AB Mk2 non Air Con -> Mk2 Air Con on these services proceeded too.

 

The locomotives employed reflected the stock.  Warships/Westerns/Peaks/47s (ie VB/SH) then became Westerns/Peaks/47s/50s (ie DB/SH or DB/EH) became Peaks/47s/50s (ie DB/EH)

 

So basically pick a year!

Thank you, this helps, I'm modelling early 70's, so assuming MK1 and Mk2a's would have been used, local services but could run a mainline with longer rake and get some mk2d/e's.

It's more the formation of the coaching stock, as mentioned above I have researched and joined groups but just can't seem to find what I'm after, also, I can't tell by looking at photos, the difference between coaching stock.

Also, what does (VB/SH) (DB/SH) and (DB/EH) mean, sorry, I was born in 1988 so my memory of trains was swallow liveried HST's

[Philou]

VB = Vacuum Braked, SH = Steam Heated, EH = Electric Heated, DB = Dual Braked (had to think about that one - I think it's Vacuum and Air Braked). It's been included as I expect (and I'm willing to learn if it's not correct) it will determine what loco will pull what stock. Also, if you're into detailing the front end of your locos, you will to add the relevant hoses - that will be determined somewhat by your time period AND what locos you have.

 

It's a minefield - but Google will be your friend. I confess I wasn't at all bothered by all this at first, but I do want to get things looking correct now. BUT, Rule 1 will always apply   .

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[The Johnster]

DB, dual braked, did indeed mean vacuum and air brake in this context, and you are correct, Philou. 

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, samdeacs07 said:

It's more the formation of the coaching stock, as mentioned above I have researched and joined groups but just can't seem to find what I'm after, also, I can't tell by looking at photos, the difference between coaching stock.

 

Go back to my earlier post, I explained where you could find a listing of a bunch of Carriage Working documents on the brcoachingstock group on groups.io that will give you several options for starting your formation research (it doesn't require searching through messages, the information is in the files section).

[brushman47544]

There is one thing to bear in mind about train sets for West of England workings. Most of the London Paddington trains than went beyond Plymouth to Penzance and vice-versa dropped off/picked up coaches at Plymouth. Depending on overall train length, this was often the restaurant/buffet plus 1 first class and 2 second. So east of Plymouth the train sets would not necessarily have all first and second class together.

Edited November 8, 2019 by brushman47544

[samdeacs07]

1 hour ago, brushman47544 said:

There is one thing to bear in mind about train sets for West of England workings. Most of the London Paddington trains than went beyond Plymouth to Penzance and vice-versa dropped off/picked up coaches at Plymouth. Depending on overall train length, this was often the restaurant/buffet plus 1 first class and 2 second. So east of Plymouth the train sets would not necessarily have all first and second class together.

I've just found a conversation on RM web from 2013 with exactly what I was after and they discuss the dropping of the catering coaching stock at Plymouth, my fictional layout location is within the Plymouth/Exeter area so will.be using said coaches which I have a few of different types.

Thanks

[Davexoc]

9 hours ago, samdeacs07 said:

Thank you, this helps, I'm modelling early 70's, so assuming MK1 and Mk2a's would have been used, local services but could run a mainline with longer rake and get some mk2d/e's.

Early 70s is predominently Mk1 and Mk2bs for WR services in the west country. WR seems to have received mainly Mk2Es from 72-73 which as has been pointed out would have been used on Bristol and S Wales sevices at first, so would rarely have appeared that far south west.

NE/SW service could throw up other early pressure ventilated Mk2s, the earliest of which could appear with Mk1s as they were vacuum brake fitted.

As a spotting guide, a MK1 has a solebar, whereas a Mk2 doesn't, so they do stand out when looking at photos.

Having holiday'd around Dawlish Warren in the mid 70s, I recall seeing a procession of 45/6/7,50s hauling Mk1s and early Mk2s, sorry can't provide formations though. IIRC the WR allocated Gresley buffet was still around in that era.

 

[Flood]

For the Penzance services they were Mk1 (with some vacuum braked Mk2 TSOs) up to 1972, Mk2a and Mk2b TSOs and FKs with Mk2c BSOs from 1972 to early 1976 (BG instead of the BSOs on the Paigntons), a swap in the summer of 1976 so the BGs went on the Penzance workings (and the BSOs went to the Paigntons) and from October 1976 Mk2e and Mk2f FO and TSO stock until the HSTs took over in force from May 1980.

 

Sample 1971-72 workings

08.05 Penzance - Paddington Mk1/Mk2 vacuum braked stock

Loco CK, FK, 2 BSK, SK, TSO, SK* from Penzance. BCK, RUO, RB, CK added at Plymouth to give:

Loco BCK, RUO, RB, 2 CK, FK, 2 BSK, SK, TSO, SK*

* = summer only

The Penzance portion is very easy to model from the available Bachmann stock. Strictly speaking the Mainline RB is the best catering car to use.

 

10.00 Penzance - Bradford Mk1 vacuum braked stock (rake is that listed from 4 October 1971)

Loco CK, TSO, CK, SK, 2 BSK, 2 SK from Penzance. SK, RUO, RB added at Plymouth to give:

Loco SK, RUO, RB, CK, TSO, CK, SK, 2 BSK, 2 SK

Again, the Penzance portion is very easy to model from the available Bachmann stock. Likewise the Mainline RB is the best catering car to use.

 

10.55 Penzance - Paddington (Cornish Riviera), using Mk2 air braked stock from November 1971

Loco TSO, FK, 2 BSO, TSO from Penzance. BFK, TSO, FO*, RB added at Plymouth to give:

Loco BFK, TSO, FO*, RB, TSO, FK, 2 BSO, TSO

(* = Mk1 with air brakes)

The whole train is just possible from the available Bachmann stock. The Penzance portion is a bit of a compromise though the Western Region had Mk2a BSO coaches W9434-9438 until March/April 1973. Again, the Mainline RB is the best catering car to use.

 

In reality it is unlikely that 2 x Mk2a BSO coaches would have been used as the Western Region had far more Mk2c BSO coaches but

1. You can't buy a ready to run Mk2c BSO and

2. it is your layout.

 

Bachmann references

Mk1 CK 39-125

Mk1 SK 39-025

Mk1 FK 39-150

Mk1 TSO 39-050

Mk1 BCK 39-225

Mk1 RUO 39-250

Mk1 BSK 39-075

 

Mk1 FO (air braked) Hornby R4778

The Mainline RB is still widely available but a Bachmann 39-100 Restaurant Unclassified (RU) could be used instead.

 

Mk2a FK 39-340 or 39-341

Mk2a TSO 39-360 or 39-361

Mk2a BSO 39-380 or 39-381

Mk2a BFK 39-410 or 39-411

 

Coaches ending 39-xx0 do not carry Inter-City, those ending 39-xx1 carry Inter-City. This was added to Mk2a stock from November 1970.

 

Edit:

Passenger locos:

Warships mainly on workings to/from Birmingham (from Penzance to Bristol) until their demise in late 1972.

Westerns on all services through to their demise in Feb 1977.

Class 50s on mainly Paddington workings from early 1974 but some Birmingham services as required.

Class 47s from 1969 on occasional Paddington and Birmingham services, gradually increasing to approx 1/3 of all workings as the Westerns were run down.

Class 45s used on services to/from Birmingham increasingly from 1972 onwards. Class 46 allocated to the Western so used as required in Cornwall from 1972 onwards.

 

Hope all this is of use.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Flood

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, Davexoc said:

IIRC the WR allocated Gresley buffet was still around in that era.

IIRC there was more than one of these surviving on the WR in blue/grey livery at that time.  One was allocated to Canton where it was used in excursions and charter service with rakes of B1 bogied mk1s; this could well have turned up in the West of England but not on booked timetable work.

[brushman47544]

16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

IIRC there was more than one of these surviving on the WR in blue/grey livery at that time.  One was allocated to Canton where it was used in excursions and charter service with rakes of B1 bogied mk1s; this could well have turned up in the West of England but not on booked timetable work.

I remember seeing a Gresley buffet at Reading on several occasions on regular services to Paddington. Perhaps as a replacement for a defective RBR but not on excursions or charters. Wish took records...

[Philou]

I hope this won't be drifting a tad off-topic, but it may interest @samdeacs07 . It's a picture of the Gresley buffet on the Paignton to Paddington service taken in 1977. I assume it's a teak-bodied coach hiding the blue and grey. What I have found 'odd' is that it carries two regional 'identifiers' (is that the right word?) W9135E.

 

Photo on Flicker by Justin Folger taken in 1977 and used under the Attribution-Sharealike 2.0 (CC BY-SA2.0).

 

Maybe I should have a look to see if there are any left to strengthen my blue/grey stock. Interesting variation to the usual Mk1 ones.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[Philou]

As a PS, is this the same one as the Hornby R4468?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Edited November 9, 2019 by Philou

[Baby Deltic]

27 minutes ago, Philou said:

I hope this won't be drifting a tad off-topic, but it may interest @samdeacs07 . It's a picture of the Gresley buffet on the Paignton to Paddington service taken in 1977. I assume it's a teak-bodied coach hiding the blue and grey. What I have found 'odd' is that it carries two regional 'identifiers' (is that the right word?) W9135E.

 

Photo on Flicker by Justin Folger taken in 1977 and used under the Attribution-Sharealike 2.0 (CC BY-SA2.0).

 

Maybe I should have a look to see if there are any left to strengthen my blue/grey stock. Interesting variation to the usual Mk1 ones.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

I think the E denotes the pre-nationalisation region or company that originally built/operated the vehicle (origin), in this case LNER/BR ER. The W denotes it being allocated to the WR now.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Baby Deltic

[Flood]

W xxx E = allocated to Western Region for services but to be maintained on the Eastern. On the BR Coaching Stock forum (along with numerous other groups) it was originally thought that the prefix solely meant the original pre-nationalisation company but exceptions such as the Two-tier car vans (eg E96299E but built by BR) and feedback from people working on BR at the time have refuted this.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Flood

[Flood]

44 minutes ago, Philou said:

I hope this won't be drifting a tad off-topic, but it may interest @samdeacs07 . It's a picture of the Gresley buffet on the Paignton to Paddington service taken in 1977. I assume it's a teak-bodied coach hiding the blue and grey. What I have found 'odd' is that it carries two regional 'identifiers' (is that the right word?) W9135E.

 

Photo on Flicker by Justin Folger taken in 1977 and used under the Attribution-Sharealike 2.0 (CC BY-SA2.0).

 

Maybe I should have a look to see if there are any left to strengthen my blue/grey stock. Interesting variation to the usual Mk1 ones.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

9115, 9128, 9131, 9132 and W9135E are all reported as being withdrawn during 1976 in the April 1977 Railway Observer, with W9135E going to the National Collection. Therefore, whatever the information states on the Flickr page, the photo would have been taken in the Summer of 1976 when this coach was in regular use on the 10.30 Paddington - Paignton SO and 16.25 Paignton - Paddington SO return (Mk 1 vacuum braked stock).