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Locomotive photo`s Pre-Grouping through to BR

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23 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

I spy two odd beasts and a Cauliflower .............. I guess you're referring to the LMS railcar : a closer relative to the BR first generation type than the oft-quoted - and far more numerous - GWR type. It was a one off and didn't have very long in traffic - ended up* as a departmental unit of some sort.

 

* literally - the end cars only

 

Overhead wire inspection train - Woodhead line, possibly.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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5 hours ago, RRU said:

Here are the last photos in the LMS batch.

LMS27217.jpg.ea26d093d1d6d4ab1b17eaf0bc61c09a.jpg

229) LMS no. 27217. No details.

 

LMS28585atWillesdenDepotLondon9-17-32.jpg.625f27c52251d8d1ef564083c45047a9.jpg

230) LMS no. 28585 at Willesden Depot 17-9-32.

 

To end, here are two views of the articulated DMU nos. 80000-80001-80002.

LMS80000.jpg.9f5eb00a30e8d3d0dfade77e6164d2fb.jpg

231) LMS no. 80000-1-2.

 

1860114663_LMS80000-1-2.jpg.10d09bbe904b6e4c10319978942d9e85.jpg

232) LMS no. 80000-1- 2.

 

Tomorrow..................The LNER.

 

 

Happy New Year, Peter (RRU),

 

Thank you for the excellent selection of photographs that you have scanned and posted in this topic.  From the 232 posted so far, there are many that I have never seen before, along with all those which have already been published in various books and magazines, throughout the last century.

 

It is a shame that all your pictures do not have more information on them, especially regarding the lack of the names of the photographers who took these superb historic records. 

 

For example, on page 6 / post 3 / picture.187 is a Furness Railway 6' 6" 4-4-0, (built by Sharp Stewart in 1901 - FR No.27) LMS No. 10144 leaving Carlisle in the 1920s (as it is carrying the first version of LMS livery and was withdrawn in May 1930), and which is a photograph by H.L. Salmon published by Ian Allan in 1966.

 

I have especially enjoyed the thirty-plus pictures from the collection of Frank Carrier (1900 - 1952), many of which were taken on 3.25 inch glass plates, which Frank's son, Michael placed into the care of Kidderminster Railway Museum's photographic archive.

 

Quite a number of the pictures reproduced here in the topic are also featured in the paper-back book - "Raised on Steam" - The pre-war railway photographs of Frank Carrier selected and described by Michael Carrier, 128 pages published by Silver Link limited in 2006.  Some of the photographs in the book have a little less contrast and reveal more detail than a few of the cropped scans I am enjoying on my screen.

 

RMweb topic 149402 /Page 6 / post 23 / picture 219 appears on page 27 of "Raised on Steam" and the caption reads:   " No. 27217 was an interesting engine.  Built by Sharp Stewart in 1858 as an 0-4-0 tank for the L&NWR, she was rebuilt by Adams in 1872 for the North London Railway as an 0-4-2 tank and had the crane added.  She was the permanent shunting engine at Bow Works in East London until withdrawal in 1951."

 

Richard Casserley also photographed this engine in the last years of its life, still with L.M.S. on the tank side, but with its BR number 58865, newly applied in LMS-style  numbers.  A photograph appears in "Locomotives of British Railways", By H.C. Casserley & L. Asher, Spring Books, 1961 (revised edition 1965, page 354).

 

The picture that I first recognised from the Frank Carrier collection was on page 5 / post 4 / picture 155, posted on 19th December 2019.  A little boy is stood in front of "Stanier 5XP 'Jubilee' Class 4-6-0, No. 5614, 'Leeward Islands' waiting to leave St. Pancras in 1937 with an express for Manchester Central." This picture forms the lead picture on page 2 of "Raised on Steam"  and the little boy is the author Michael.

 

I hope these notes prove of interest.

 

Best wishes, John.

 

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Another Frank Carrier picture that caused some comment is that of the Beyer-Garratt on a passenger train, on page 3 / post 21, picture 141.

 

As Mike (The Stationmaster) said - it is a test train and the make up of the special would allow the engine to be trialled at higher speeds.

 

AFAIK, this photograph has been published on at least two occasions; the first in "Raised on Steam" and later in "Railway Archive" magazine, issue No.23, in what was the first of a series of articles about the Frank Carrier photographic collection, written by David Postle, Director of Kidderminster Railway Museum.

 

Here's an amalgamation of the two captions regarding the Garratt experiment:

 

"As far as is known, this is the only picture in existence of a Garratt  working a passenger train, comprised totally of passenger vehicles.  In 1936 LMS Derby experimented by arranging a special working on passenger train timings using No. 4999, one of the three Garratts fitted with vacuum brakes".

 

"Because Frank Carrier was in a priveleged position, which enabled him to learn about special workings, he went to Borrowash, a few miles from Derby, to photograph the test train.  However, the official photographers went to Sharnbrook, between Wellingborough and Bedford, to film the engine on the climb.  The train consisted of twenty passenger vehicles, with the dynamometer car next to the engine, fully wired up to record the performance between Derby and St. Pancras".

 

"However, after passing Frank at Borrowash, No. 4999 suffered a hot axle box (a standard Midland fitting under the big Beyer-Peacock built 2-6-0 + 0-6-2 engine) and it had to be taken off at Leicester.  Thus Frank photographed the test train, but the official photographers did not and therefore it is believed to be the only picture of a Garratt on a train of passenger stock. (KRM Neg. No. 087818). The experiment was not repeated."

 

"The thirty-three Garratts were built for the Toton to Wellingborough coal traffic and did sterling work for more than 25 years.  However, they were heavy on maintenance and all were withdrawn between 1955 and 1958".

 

Best wishes, John.

 

Refs: Raised in Steam, by Michael Carrier, Silver Link Publishing, 2006 (page 22)..

Railway Archive magazine, issue 23 (page 33), edited by Neil Parkhouse, Lightmoor Press.

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1 hour ago, Old Gringo said:

 

Happy New Year, Peter (RRU),

 

Thank you for the excellent selection of photographs that you have scanned and posted in this topic.  From the 232 posted so far, there are many that I have never seen before, along with all those which have already been published in various books and magazines, throughout the last century.

 

It is a shame that all your pictures do not have more information on them, especially regarding the lack of the names of the photographers who took these superb historic records. 

 

 

 

Thank you John for your comments and info on many of the photos. The quality and the amount of details with them are exactly as I received them and as I have never seen any of them before I have no idea if they have been published or not.

 

The level of detail and the amount of it that has been posted by several people has surprised me and I am very grateful.

There is only around 1,000 to go.

 

Peter

 

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222) - that's a "Wemyss Bay tank", and it's showing a "train to/from Wemyss Bay" route indicator. It's not absolutely clear, especially on the left side of the picture, but it looks like a 4-track stretch, so it has to be on the ex-Glasgow and Paisley Joint. Because of the cutting and building in the background, I would say between Shields Road and Cardonald stations.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Old Gringo said:

Another Frank Carrier picture that caused some comment is that of the Beyer-Garratt on a passenger train, on page 3 / post 21, picture 141.

 

As Mike (The Stationmaster) said - it is a test train and the make up of the special would allow the engine to be trialled at higher speeds.

 

AFAIK, this photograph has been published on at least two occasions; the first in "Raised on Steam" and later in "Railway Archive" magazine, issue No.23, in what was the first of a series of articles about the Frank Carrier photographic collection, written by David Postle, Director of Kidderminster Railway Museum.

 

 

Do I gather from this that Frank Carrier's originals (negatives or prints) are held at Kidderminster?

Edited by Compound2632

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Posted (edited)

Here are the first pic`s in the LNER batch. As with the last ones, they are purely in numerical order.

 

LNER10.jpg.ad7c54646413d9c1afd2ebff7648f939.jpg

234) No. 10. No details.

 

LNER13.jpg.497c4c4d0dc109acd67fe1cfeb0ea8c6.jpg

235) No. 13. No details.

 

LNER114.jpg.22a2284978b46c690a740dc8fa545022.jpg

236) No. 114. No details.

 

LNER162atInverkeithingC1925.jpg.4a66cfca7ea1dbb57b9fb52b7d5bed85.jpg

237) No. 162 at Inverkeithing. Circa 1925.

 

LNER225.jpg.0ac251d3d35d8e49291a10a0486ad2c6.jpg

238) No. 225. No details.

 

LNER628BatDunfermlineShed1924.jpg.812e48fbc129faa9e0797e3282623ad3.jpg

239) No. 628B "Byng" at Dunfermline Shed 1924.

 

Edited by RRU
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The above is "Byng", the locos that served abroad carried names of leaders or places in the Western Front.

Nameplates were hand painted, often at the depot.

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14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Do I gather from this that Frank Carrier's originals (negatives or prints) are held at Kidderminster?

 

Hi Stephen,

 

Yes, as I mentioned in the earlier post . . .

 

"I have especially enjoyed the thirty-plus pictures from the collection of Frank Carrier (1900 - 1952), many of which were taken on 3.25 inch glass plates, which Frank's son, Michael placed into the care of Kidderminster Railway Museum's photographic archive."

 

I understand from David that the Kidderminster Photographic Archive has all the surviving glass plates, along with Frank's later photographs taken on medium format film negatives.  I believe that all these have now been scanned and entered onto the KRM database with brief descriptions and are available to view by appointment.  For example: KRM Neg No. 087818 is the picture of Garratt No. 4999 - "which is believed to be the only picture of a Garratt on a train of passenger stock", etc.

 

A little more background on this remarkable railwayman and photographer: "Frank Carrier joined the Midland Railway at Derby Works, after serving in the Grenadier Guards during the latter part of WW1.  He won the prestigious Henry Fowler Scholarship and after workshop and footplate experience, entered the Locomotive Drawing Office at Derby in 1924, working under Herbert Chambers".  (ref: Raised on Steam, page 11).

 

After studying all the pictures in this topic, I have made a note of those that appear in the book "Raised on Steam" and will add some more information in a later post.

 

All the best,

John

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Posted (edited)

235). The NER Raven express passenger electric locomotive No. 13 - an unlucky engine. Either the print or the negative has been doctored with the the words NORTH EASTERN either side of the company crest obliterated and L.&.   N.E.R. added. The actual LNER style given to this locomotive can be seen in the film of the S&DR centenary, at 19 min 17 sec.

Edited by Compound2632
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234)  LNER class EB1, one of ten engines built by the North Eastern Railway for the Newport-Shildon electrification.

 

235)  A glass plate negative of No 13 in North Eastern livery is held by the NRM at York as part of the Dukinfield collection.  This image is clearly derived from that photograph, in the manner indicated by Compound2632 above.

 

236)  K3 No 114 is at Top Shed.  A less cropped version of this image appears in Colin Garratt's book on the photographs of the Rev A W W Mace.

 

D

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237 & 239) are photos of ex-NBR locos in the condition shown rare? Both still have their ex-NBR numbers without having 9000 added to them; they would become 9162 and 9628, respectively. No. 628 carries the 'B' suffix first allocated to ex-NBR locos, and No. 162 has the ampersand in LNER, which only lasted for a couple of years. Moving the running number to the cabside began in 1928. The loco. stock of the LNER was completely renumbered from 1946 on; No 628 (class J36) became No. 5216. No. 162 I don't know. The K3 no.114 was renumbered between1800 - 1992.

 

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19 minutes ago, 62613 said:

237 & 239) are photos of ex-NBR locos in the condition shown rare?

As you asked, I've dug out my copy of Yeadon's Register vol 26, and the answer would seem to be that they're not perhaps as rare as you might expect.

 

According to Yeadon's, J36 No 628 got the 'B' suffix in October 1923, and became 9628 in November 1926.  J37 No 162 became 9162 in February 1926, and 4564 in November 1946.

 

D

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LNER264atPlessey9-15-38.jpg.1928de4642a282f083ddda8b6bb8d841.jpg

240) No. 264 "Stirlingshire" at Plessey 15-9-38. No details of the A4.

 

520055824_LNER696atNewcastle19309s.jpg.aae2f1f6e7d806be16b3a4ca8e0b1af7.jpg

241) No. 696 at Newcastle 1930's.

 

The cab windows on NE locos always look too low to me.

307276050_LNER702atGatgesheadEarly1930s.jpg.47f8340936d0c3b18cf841b120e0c1be.jpg

242) No. 702 at Gateshead. Early 1930`s.

 

LNER761.jpg.a60075f14f169c037e94f0e07dc06a66.jpg

243) No. 761. No details.

 

LNER820atNottinghamVictoria5-20-37.jpg.6f1bec6bf9a584e8bc9eef82e9877ef5.jpg

244) No. 820 at Nottingham Victoria 20-5-37.

 

LNER858atHitchin.jpg.9d4cbc0db565bb2078148156c0b668cd.jpg

245) No. 858 at Hitchin. No date.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, RRU said:

LNER264atPlessey9-15-38.jpg.1928de4642a282f083ddda8b6bb8d841.jpg

240) No. 264 "Stirlingshire" at Plessey 15-9-38. No details of the A4.

 

520055824_LNER696atNewcastle19309s.jpg.aae2f1f6e7d806be16b3a4ca8e0b1af7.jpg

241) No. 696 at Newcastle 1930's.

 

The cab windows on NE locos always look too low to me.

307276050_LNER702atGatgesheadEarly1930s.jpg.47f8340936d0c3b18cf841b120e0c1be.jpg

242) No. 702 at Gateshead. Early 1930`s.

 

LNER761.jpg.a60075f14f169c037e94f0e07dc06a66.jpg

243) No. 761. No details.

 

LNER820atNottinghamVictoria5-20-37.jpg.6f1bec6bf9a584e8bc9eef82e9877ef5.jpg

244) No. 820 at Nottingham Victoria 20-5-37.

 

LNER858atHitchin.jpg.9d4cbc0db565bb2078148156c0b668cd.jpg

245) No. 858 at Hitchin. No date.

 

The last one (245) is definitely post-1946. The loco. is a V2 and has been renumbered.

 

240) "Stirlingshire" became No. 2704 after 1946. I don't think any of the others survived long enough.

 

Edited by 62613

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35 minutes ago, 62613 said:

The last one (245) is definitely post-1946. The loco. is a V2 and has been renumbered.

 

240) "Stirlingshire" became No. 2704 after 1946. I don't think any of the others survived long enough.

 


Possibly wartime ? Of note is the ex GC stock behind the V2 tender.

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My blood runs cold at the thought of the photographer standing in the four foot of what seems to be a running line with his back to the traffic, especially as he can't hear anything coming up behind him because of the roar of the V2 crossing a steel girder road bridge...

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3 hours ago, 62613 said:

240) "Stirlingshire" became No. 2704 after 1946. I don't think any of the others survived long enough.

 

I don't understand the comment? There were plenty of 'Shires' around in BR days, up until 1961.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:


Possibly wartime ? Of note is the ex GC stock behind the V2 tender.

The renumbering scheme, when the V2s became nos. 800-983, didn't actually start until 1946, even though the number lists were issued in 1943. The atlantics were probably withdrawn before the renumbering took effect. Of the 4-6-0s, No. 761, LNER class B13,  was a curiosity. It was withdrawn 9/34 and put into service stock as a counter-pressure locomotive, for the testing of other locomotives on the road. It was renumbered 1699 in 10/46. It was withdrawn as such from the Rugby test plant in 5/51. No. 820, LNER class B15, became No. 1696 in 5/46 and was withdrawn in 12/47. Information from the RCTS "Green Book"

 

 

 

Edited by 62613
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4 hours ago, 62613 said:

The renumbering scheme, when the V2s became nos. 800-983, didn't actually start until 1946, even though the number lists were issued in 1943. The atlantics were probably withdrawn before the renumbering took effect. Of the 4-6-0s, No. 761, LNER class B13,  was a curiosity. It was withdrawn 9/34 and put into service stock as a counter-pressure locomotive, for the testing of other locomotives on the road. It was renumbered 1699 in 10/46. It was withdrawn as such from the Rugby test plant in 5/51. No. 820, LNER class B15, became No. 1696 in 5/46 and was withdrawn in 12/47. Information from the RCTS "Green Book"

 

 

 


I don’t dispute what you say but the image is far too grainy and indistinct for me to evidence one way or the other the numbering on the V2 cabside.

 

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8 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:


Possibly wartime ? Of note is the ex GC stock behind the V2 tender.

 

The fist vehicle is ex-GC, but most of the rest seem to be standard Gresley's. But the wartime inference is spurious, because the remaining GC stock was distributed to Doncaster, Stratford and Cowlairs after Dukinfield works closed in 1939

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4 hours ago, 62613 said:

The renumbering scheme, when the V2s became nos. 800-983, didn't actually start until 1946, even though the number lists were issued in 1943. The atlantics were probably withdrawn before the renumbering took effect. Of the 4-6-0s, No. 761, LNER class B13,  was a curiosity. It was withdrawn 9/34 and put into service stock as a counter-pressure locomotive, for the testing of other locomotives on the road. It was renumbered 1699 in 10/46. It was withdrawn as such from the Rugby test plant in 5/51. No. 820, LNER class B15, became No. 1696 in 5/46 and was withdrawn in 12/47. Information from the RCTS "Green Book"

 

 

 


I don’t dispute what you say but the image is far too grainy and indistinct for me to evidence one way or the other the numbering on the V2 cabside.

 

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6 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

The fist vehicle is ex-GC, but most of the rest seem to be standard Gresley's. But the wartime inference is spurious, because the remaining GC stock was distributed to Doncaster, Stratford and Cowlairs after Dukinfield works closed in 1939

 
Sorry,please don’t misunderstand.I wasn’t using it as evidence but merely pointing it out as an item of general interest..No connection as such was intended.

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LNER925atYork.jpg.fa60ddaf8072f0f1846d96433604d2ac.jpg

246) No. 925 at York. No date.

 

LNER1162atInverkeithingC1923.jpg.f826f9daac7585e98b207f0787503a02.jpg

247) Nos 1162 and 1223 at Inverkeithing C1923.

 

LNER1175c1947.jpg.8b300410115f06d1bc1afec19a37856a.jpg

248) No. 1175 c1947.

 

LNER1180atBramhopeTunnel.jpg.2b4d8b38713efd5b1a9c129a4e1d8bd1.jpg

249) No. 1180 at Bramhope Tunnel. No date.

 

LNER1239atGateshead.jpg.e0f2ab5212c63d950edb9af787ca13b0.jpg

250) No. 1239 at Gateshead. No date.

 

LNER1240atNewcastle.jpg.a344e1bca67512ec93a928533e718b9a.jpg

251) No. 1240 at Newcastle. No date.

 

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16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

My blood runs cold at the thought of the photographer standing in the four foot of what seems to be a running line with his back to the traffic, especially as he can't hear anything coming up behind him because of the roar of the V2 crossing a steel girder road bridge...

Anything coming up behind him would be at Caution ............ BUT.

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