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Met loco stabling points


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I’m building a small layout set in the early 60’s and I’m looking for pictures of LT’s Metropolitan loco’s stabled, especially in a engine shed.  All I’ve seen are pictures of them stabled at Neasden but they were still attached to their service train.

 

Were they parked up next to steam locomotives or did they have their own shed?

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I'd need to do more research in timetables and photographs of the time.  Quick checking of the closest fit WT [1958] shows nine locos required for am peak weekday service out of an overall fleet of sixteen.  Eight locos returned to Neasden at night, and one loco remained at Liverpool Street overnight to pick up the first returning train in the morning.  At Neasden, the electric locos would not have been in the steam loco part of the depot [not electrified], and didn't have a separate shed. 

 

I have no hard evidence in mind but suggest that locos arriving at Neasden that didn't require any more than nightly test may well have been left on a yard stabling road or shed road at Neasden with their incoming train.  However, highly likely that the loco would need to be uncoupled and positioned with its train for the next day, depending on direction of departure.  Conventionally, the Depot Foreman would allocate trains in the yard for the next day's workings and there would be a fairly consistent plan for this.  Ideally, Incoming trains [all but one of the evening/night finishers coming into Neasden North from Wembley] would be directed to the stabling place that suited their next [day] activities but if there was work to be done on the train, a different berth was arranged and the train redirected as it entered.  If a locomotive needed examination or inspection, or more, after stabling its train the loco would be uncoupled and moved to the appropriate shed road for the work to be done. 

 

By the 1960s there would be a small number of locomotives in excess of service requirements and spare locos would probably be placed on a suitable road, either in the yard not far from the depot office, or maybe in the Exam or Cleaning Shed.  Broadly the aim was for a convenient place for depot staff to retrieve and move as required.  Some of the locos in the fleet would be on Lifting roads  for planned major work/equipment change or, up to about 1959, at Acton for Heavy Overhaul

 

 

Edited by Engineer
persistent formatting discrepancy ... now resolved. Focusing on answering the 'exam question'., Contemporary documents now checked for detail and memory errors corrected, plus improved use of English
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Engineer: pity you deleted all that pre-1960s info; it was interesting. I'd read about the light loco sets going out in the morning, but some of the rest not.

 

More generally, electric locos of that ilk, simple DC machines, are very similar in principal and content to the motor cars of EMUs, so don't need all the expensive support infrastructure that steam locos do. That and the fact that they typical had an availability of c90% (including periodic overhauls), could be turned on at the flick of a switch, and ate no fuel when doing no work made them rather good prospects in many respects. 

 

The more complex SR Hornbys were rather under-utilised, partly because they could pull longer goods trains than the sidings could accommodate, but they provide a good documented example, in that they spent about 4hrs/week un-available while being maintained, which is nearly 98% planned availability excluding periodic overhauls. They didn't have a shed either.

 

 

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I can't remember seeing a photo of one on shed, but other locations included Liverpool St. Loco Siding (PM sent), Baker St loco siding (nr P4/Signal Box), or "lurking in tunnels"...

Edited by 298
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I've had a quick look through "Red Panniers" and it becomes obvious that alot of the photos of Steam locos are taken in non-electrified areas, Lillie Bridge and Neasden (because fourth rail and servicing pits don't mix), Goods yards, Watford tip, and the widened lines at Moorgate.

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After electrification beyond Rickmansworth in 1960, I believe a Met-Vik loco and steam stock set stabled overnight at Chesham ready to operate the first morning through service. There was also a curious arrangement after the peak where a spare loco would be placed on the back of a steam stock train and detached at its drop off point leading to a train top and tailed by electric locos! 

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In response to this morning's post I confirm the practice of loco at rear of train, and it's featured in several photographs in publications and internet places.  It's an important technique to use when train paths are at a premium.  The additional loco extends the train length a little and still carries a crew, but as a separate loco movement it would occupy more or the railway and add to the signalling and control workload, so overall a positive effect on capacity.  The Met would be pretty busy generally, heading to and from Neasden, but also Chesham is a long single line, and the junction area at Chalfont remains capacity-critical today.  It's a practice that was in use back in Metropolitan times in various ways to suit situations, and similar practices were sometimes - but not always - used for coaches and vehicles based at Neasden which were added to or removed from trains at suitable locations to suit demand.  Sometimes these moves show up in WTs, sometimes not.

When time permits, I'll look up the WT for the electrification North of Rickmansworth - might be some interest in the movements that were scheduled, though danger of heading off-topic for the originator of the question!

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A brief supplementary on stabling matters to add to the previous note, and also connecting back to the third post in this series that mentioned a 1958 WT.  The analysis is a bit fiddly to work out, bound to be a few errors, so subsequent editing very likely. 

 

The 1960 WT 185 was a one-off for the extension of electric services to Amersham and Chesham.  I've referred to its Rolling Stock Working pages, and made brief but not exhaustive checks in the main body of the timetable, MF services only.  I have converted times to 24+ hours to reduce the risk of me making mistakes.

 

Each working of a coach set and of a locomotive is given a number for the traffic day [03:00 to 27:00 (03:00 next day] and this number allows the workings to be followed through the timetable via its column headers or notes.  Loco workings are similar to ‘diagrams’.  The 'diagram' for the coaches uses the assigned train number for the day as the identifier.

 

The next day’s workings use the same number pattern, but of course allocated with different real vehicles, and it is quite common for real vehicles to be assigned to different trains during a day, for example to ensure vehicles return to a particular location for maintenance or as a tactic to manage service recovery post-disruption. 

 

When stabling a train [set of coaches], the train number/coach working number at the finish is not the same as the number used for the departure next day.  Example for Steam Stock 6-coach [SS6], WT 185, MF service:

Train 114 Empty from Aylesbury (Town) arrives Wendover 20:47 and shunts to Yard.  Departs next morning 06:45 as train 112 Empty to Aylesbury (Town).

 

Loco working examples

Overall, the rolling stock working [meaning the starts and finishes, stabling and out-stabling] is quite similar to the 1958 WT:  At maximum, nine locos required for MF service out of an overall fleet of sixteen. 

Eight locos return to Neasden at night, and one loco [working 5] remains at Liverpool Street overnight and becomes working 9, taking over the first train that arrives in the morning. 

Two locos also remain during the day at Liverpool Street, loco working 3 [arrives at 09:40 with train 113 and departs with train 117 at 15:43]  and 9 [arrives with train 117 at 09:55½ and  departs with train 115 at 16:19].

 

Specific details from the timetable on Chesham loco moves

Train 118 [loco working 5, plus loco working 6 at rear] depart Neasden (North) 06:00 empty to Chesham p2 arrive 06:59

Train 118 [loco working 6] depart Chesham 07:31 to Baker Street p1 08:27

Train 119 [loco working 5] depart Chesham 08:12 to Liverpool Street arrive 9:20½

 

Train 112 [Loco working 2] depart Liverpool Street 17:14½ arrive Chesham p2  18:27.  Coaches [Steam Stock set] moved to siding. 

Train 113 [Loco working 6] depart Liverpool Street 17:41 arrive Chesham p2  18:57 

Train 113 [Loco working 2 plus loco working 6 at rear], depart Chesham 19:21, in service to Harrow-on-the-Hill, empty to Neasden (North) 20:08.

 

This means that coaches from incoming train 112 at 18:27 will form train 119 at 08:12 next day

 

I guess that related questions will arise for priming and conclusion of layovers:

 

Loco working 2 [alone] departs Neasden (North) 06:31, arrives Rickmansworth 07:00

Loco working 8 [alone] departs Neasden (North) 06:58, arrives Rickmansworth 07:30

 

Loco working 4 [alone] departs Rickmansworth 18:40, arrives Neasden (North) 19:12

Loco working 3 [alone] departs Rickmansworth 24:37, arrives Neasden (North) 25:03 [conveys staff]

 

Loco working 7 departs Neasden (South) 06:09 at rear of train 116, arrives Baker Street 06:26½

Loco working 9 departs Baker Street 20:25, arrives Neasden (South) 20:25

 

 

One tiny diversion from stabling and out-stabling, but with a Chesham context - there is a morning working of interest, an LMR train:

Class C

03:55 ex Marylebone Empty Coaches + Newspaper Van

04:53 Chesham arrive [infer Van remains at Chesham]

Class B

05:38 Chesham depart in passenger service

Calls at stations to Rickmansworth then Northwood and stations to Harrow-on-the-Hill.

Arrive Marylebone 06:32

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Presumably there would also be spare locos required at Aldgate and Moorgate as well as Liverpool Street and Baker Street to take out the incoming trains. Did they work as light engine or on the back of service trains? Remember for every incoming train you need a loco to take it out again. there were no run' rounds easily available in the tunnel sections.

 

We had the same situation on the Widened Lines with loco hauled suburban services. A light engine would precede the first service train and take it out, similarly there would be a light engine move following the last train out at the end of the peak.

 

I'd suggest Brian Hardy would have a good idea of the workings.

 

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There were certainly loco spurs for that very purpose at Liverpool St and Baker St.

 

Did LT terminate loco-hailed trains at Aldgate and Moorgate? I thought only EMUs were terminated at those places.

 

In steam days, things were even more complicated, as I think has been pointed out here before, and Aldgate was a nightmare of light engine moves.

Edited by Nearholmer
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On 01/04/2020 at 10:08, Nearholmer said:

Did LT terminate loco-hailed trains at Aldgate and Moorgate? I thought only EMUs were terminated at those places.

Yes, and at Paddington (H&C) for through services off the Great Western.

 

Jim

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To add to that, looking at the 1896 OS map for the Aldgate area, although it had four platforms as now, the through roads were the centre pair, with the outside two being the terminal platforms, ie the opposite of the current arrangement. The terminating platform on the Inner Circle side had a loco neck, as at Liverpool Street, and there were various sidings immediately to the west of the north junction, between what was then Stoney Lane and Harrow Alley. These days, that section has all been covered in so whilst the sidings are no more, it is impossible to see if the space they occupied is still there.

 

Jim

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It appears from the subsequent OS maps to have remained unaltered at the Baker Street end until at least c.1960. However, the 1916 survey does show the platforms to have been swapped over, ie terminal>through and vice versa. The through trains from the GWR continued until the start of World War 2, so potentially some smart operating was called for. It is plausible that a loco hauled train could have been reversed in the Inner Rail platform and the loco got into the spur in between anti-clockwise Circle line services.

 

Jim

Edited by jim.snowdon
Updated with further information.
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Just noticed the pic of the two Bo-Bos at Liverpool St., posted above by 298.

Using the harsig 1933 diagram linked to in the previous post, it can be seen that loco no.16 has just passed signal G20 and is moving across the diamond of the single-slip to terminate in (i'm presuming) platform 3.

Loco no.2 is in the headshunt behind disc G14, waiting to go on the other end of the train and take out the next service.

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In response to the Aldgate discussion, I've also looked at the OS 25-inch 1914 revision for the area in order to compare to a scale plan.  The OS shows a three-track section under the Stoney Lane covered way and converges to two tracks in the open section just before passing under Harrow Alley.  The loco siding is there, reaching back into the tip of the island platform between Inner Rail through line and the adjacent terminating line.  Off the through line at the departure end of the platform there are two successive turnouts to short sidings.  The first siding definitely ends in the open space to the West of the line and the second siding may continue into the covered way - can't tell from the OS.

 

Long ago I took a couple of pictures of a scale plan of Aldgate from 1926, in archives.  It showed the new signalling and signal box [with power frame].   The difference shows up where the two west side sidings have been removed.  The vacated open area is the location for the new signal box.  Dimensions suggest the 3-track section extends west for roughly 300' west of the North junction.

 

In response to the post last Wednesday, it's hard to generalise on locomotive positioning moves and use of sidings by the Metropolitan and LT over time - getting on for 60 years of loco use in passenger service.  The analysis earlier in this thread outlines some of the movements in the last timetable or two of loco haulage, with examples of 'loco on rear'.  I believe this was one of several techniques used over the years, scheduled and unscheduled.  Positioning moves of a single locomotive or up to four together [only on doing the work]  were used, and most of these were shown in working timetables but not all.  I'm working on research to do with the electric locomotives, including some analysis of workings, so I'll extend this to see what I can find, but I may be a while. 

 

I can give some hints of terminus workings for the May 1919 timetables but it is a work in progress and I don't have a full count yet nor a guarantee of freedom from errors.  For Aldgate [based on a Weekday/Saturdays Excepted timetable] there seem to be at least a couple of loco-hauled Metropolitan trains terminating there during the day, one with a Pullman car.  There were large numbers of other terminating[and sometimes dividing or coupling] trains, a mix of Metropolitan electric trains [Saloon Stock at the time] from North of Baker Street, Circle trains and Hammersmith and City trains.  There were no terminating GWR trains from Paddington Bishop's Road.

 

By contrast, there are seven GWR loco-hauled trains terminating at Liverpool Street through the service day.  Loco-hauled Metropolitan trains terminating at Liverpool Street were in double figures, including one with a Pullman car, and a couple of visits from a loco-hauled train formed of ten GWR coaches.  These latter are believed to be four-wheelers of suitable design hired to strengthen hard-pressed Metropolitan services to northern suburbs, pending arrival of additional new and reconstructed stock. 

 

More analysis on this and a few more timetables through the inter-war years in due course.

Edited by Engineer
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Thanks for this very interesting. I understand that probably a little earlier than 1919 the Met was using reconditioned Jubilee stock in 9 coach formations to fill in for stock shortages. I guess the stock on order was the 1920 batch of Dreadnoughts which allowed more bogie stock to be converted to electric working.

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A supplementary item of information, with thanks to a former colleague sharing in the past few days some research work in progress:  After replacement of Aldgate signal box and locking in 1908, the role of outer and inner platform  tracks was reversed in 1909, the outer pair becoming the through lines.

 

On the post from Monday 6th, agree that loco-hauled Jubilee stock had been used for some Metropolitan services until its retirement.  The 1919 plan included a Main Line Stock [Dreadnought] order but also two reconstruction projects involving the original electric locomotives and one 6-car train of Saloon Stock.  The latter was to evaluate a new vehicle layout with the potential to improve capacity, which could form a new design for more electric stock in the next couple of years.  The advantages did not justify the design change and an evolved form of Saloon Stock was ordered instead.  Traction equipment and other parts from the original electric locomotives found their way into the new Saloon Stock and to other modifications.  This amounted to a planned cascade programme to squeeze the most out of the fleet with careful use of finance, the other noteworthy component being the creation of W Stock, made up of converted Bogie Stock displaced by new Dreadnought coaches and formed into 8-vehicle trains using pairs of existing Saloon Motor cars.

 

Some more work on the question of terminating loco-hauled trains at Aldgate at the City.  It's a summary of terminating trains at each site, and combines information from working timetables at three moments - 1919, 1930 and 1939. 

1449978269_SummaryCityterminatingtrains191919301939.jpg.da8f853802a8b4b6df6edfbbfb6cc7e5.jpg

The timetables have more than one section - broadly No,1 covers Hammersmith and City and Circle and GWR operations, No.2 in 1919 covers Metropolitan services north of Baker Street to Harrow and Uxbridge, and in 1930 and 1939, No.2 covers all services going North of Baker Street.  No.3 [1919} covered the services that run North of Harrow.  Unavoidably, the scope of each book overlaps the others to some extent, so double-counting and other errors are possible, and this quick estimate isn't perfect.  I have some research in progress that will require a more thorough analysis of some services.  The summary table indicates how service and terminating patterns changed over time and includes for context the Circle and H&C trains and Metropolitan electric stock trains that terminated in the City.

 

 

 

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I'll post a page from the 1921 Met appendix to the WTT, (see my other post on this subject)- it lists coach types on the Met, including Hammersmith and City, Circle, and Aylesbury- Verney Junction sections.  May be of interest.

 

 Best Regards

 

Matt W

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