Ballast begone

[portsladepete]

My latest and probably last layout was ballasted in the pva glue way, directly onto the ply baseboard. I now want to remove a lot of it due to wheel noise from mostly Bachmann locos.

I seem to get slightly out of round wheels on their steam locos, (although I did have a class 37 that had a nice rhythmic thump from them) If they are too bad, they go back, but if they don’t wobble, then I put up with the noise.

 

I can remove the ballast easily enough, just wanted any ideas you may have to disguise the lack of it. My layout is mostly at eye level when I’m seated so it won’t be that obvious .

Strange request, but I like my trains sounding smooth.

[Junctionmad]

Warm dilute vinegar , 

 

[Gordon A]

That is why a lot of modellers glue the track to a cork sub base representing the ballast under the track.

Gordon A

[portsladepete]

Thanks, presume the vinegar is to remove the ballast, not act as it’s replacement?

If I was to remove the track, I would consider cork, but I want to leave it in place, I started this when I was a bit more agile, some parts of it are quite difficult to reach for laying track.

 

[Dominion]

I will try diluted copydex next time if I can find it in Canada. I have heard that it remains flexible and so doesn't amplify the sound. I can't vouch for it yet though. Tom

Edited January 26, 2020 by Dominion

[hayfield]

7 hours ago, Dominion said:

I will try diluted copydex next time if I can find it in Canada. I have heard that it remains flexible and so doesn't amplify the sound. I can't vouch for it yet though. Tom

 

Copydex is a brand name for Latex glue, used for laying flooring(sold in larger quantities and less expensive when not a major brand) in addition to many other uses.

[Dominion]

Thanks John. Unfortunately the stuff they sell here for laying flooring is quite different. Copydex is an aqueous latex solution and if the packaging here described the ingredients I could look for that, but they don't, so I have had to buy it and open it. Tried 2 types so far, neither like Copydex. I have also tried to get the Febond product (and admix) that Norman Soloman describes in his right track video, and again it is a completely different formulation here than the one he was using on the video. I believe Copydex may also be used for show repair, so i need to find a cobblers !

[hayfield]

I would doubt if its used for shoe repair, well never mended my wife's shoes. No More Nails did that and whilst it would be OK for sticking the track down (I have done this with a product called Extreme no good for ballasting

 

I thought all our glues came from US owned companies, but it seems they are all German!!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copydex

 

This may help you

 

http://railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30858

 

Thanks for the heads up in that not all Latex glues are the same, I will use Extreme glue(which is a polymer glue) to hold the track to the closed cell foam I use as a track base (which was stuck to the baseboard with Extreme) And pay out for Copydex which I will dilute 50%/50% with water and use a dropper to apply it

 

Extreme glue

 

https://www.multifixbury.com/category/adhesives-sealants/adhesives/polymer-adhesive.html

[cravensdmufan]

I know you say you want to remove all the ballast but may I suggest you try Woodland Scenics ballast as a replacement?  It may be the type of ballast you used rather than the glue that has made it noisy.

 

Woodland Scenics It is lightweight (made of cork granules?) and a lot quieter than the heavy granite stuff which is always noisy.  Maybe worth buying a small bag to try.

 

IMO a layout wouldn't look great without the track ballasted.

Edited January 26, 2020 by cravensdmufan
Some parts re-written for clarification.

[Rowsley17D]

Have you tried here for latex glue?

 

https://fabricville.com/en/504-latex-adhesive.html

[Robert Stokes]

If I have understood the OP, he is not asking how to remove the ballast, but what to use as a replacement.

 

Did you originally use real granite ballast or something similar? If so then you could try replacing it with crushed cork pieces painted the appropriate colour. Try doing this to a yard or two to see whether it makes a real difference before attacking the rest.

 

Robert

[Dominion]

4 hours ago, Rowsley17D said:

Have you tried here for latex glue?

 

https://fabricville.com/en/504-latex-adhesive.html

 

That looks promising. Many thanks for the link, I will try that. When I search for latex glue here I get glue for making latex clothing which is an entirely different hobby :-) 

[Junctionmad]

We have used woodland scenic Ballast , on 6mm cork ( O gauge ) extensively , once glued with dilute pva it’s extremely noisy.  The next track laying will use two layers of closed cell foam one forming the ballast shoulder , the other to isolate the ballast from the baseboard 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Junctionmad

[Pete the Elaner]

PVA is a resin, so it dries hard. Very hard. It is really not surprising that it makes running noisy. I was brought up with the  usual method of laying track on cork mainly to reduce noise, then fixing the ballast with dilute PVA. The PVA then soaks right into the cork & sets rock hard, completely destroying the softness the cork was there for in the first place. It also makes some ballast, particularly granite chippings, dry slightly green. This is ok if you want to weather it heavily, but if you want some subtle different colours for ballast, sleepers & track then a re-think is in order. This last reason was why I chose something else.

 

I have tried Copydex but wanted an easier method so I also tried crushed, dried wallpaper paste flakes. I don't recommend the wallpaper paste stuff because it swells a lot when wet. This is ok because it dries back to shape but it continues slowly contracting for the next few weeks, creating cracks as the glue weakens. I can now pull it off in lumps 

 

I'm now back with Copydex. I also glue my track down with it for 2 reasons: I don't like pins in the track & I space my sleepers out so gluing each one gives more strength than pinning every nth one.

Gluing the track increases contact to cork & therefore baseboard, making running noisier.

Using Copydex is similar to PVA: water it down 50/50 with a drop of washing up liquid. Wet the loose ballast with a spray, drop the glue mix from a pipette. I need to be more gentle with this than I can remember with PVA & don't soak it straight away. Leave it for 5 minutes or so to go tacky then flood it with the glue mix so you can barely see the ballast.

 

I find it has several advantages over PVA:

It dries quicker.

It dries softer. This makes running quieter than with PVA (but it is noisier than the track with no ballast & that is noisier than the pinned track in my fiddle yard)

Instead of drying slightly green, it dries slightly brown.

Any excess can easily be removed with a scalpel. Don't be tempted to pull any unwanted piece off because they are held together with a soft, invisible skin.

Any joint such as a board joint can be cut very neatly with a scalpel.

It can take more knocks & board flexing than PVA set ballast. PVA set crumbles when knocked or flexed, so if you've weathered it, the chip will leave an unweathered spot.

 

The drawback with Copydex is that if you later need to drill a hole, the glue can wrap itself around the drill bit. I find this a minor inconvenience compared to its advantages.

 

I recommend trying anything new on a small test piece. Using a different type of glue requires a different technique. YOu just need to be a little more careful with the pipette, that is all.

One of my friends (who was used to working with PVA) helped me do a section of track. It looked messy, so I had to pull it up & start again (which is not too difficult with Copydx because of the 'skin' I mentioned earlier.

 

I don't dislike PVA. I find it an excellent wood glue, but fixing ballast requires different properties from holding 2 pieces of wood together.

[portsladepete]

Thanks everyone, this layout is my third, and I still manage to make mistakes ,sometimes the same ones.

I removed ballast from about a foot of track, and the Bachmann loco now is quieter on that bit, so now thinking, I’ll leave the rest for now.

I’m ok with the running noise, it’s just the square wheel noise that grates, to be fair this isn’t the worst I’ve had.