“BEYOND DOVER”

[Northroader]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

I had no idea. Very interesting. A web search produced these references:

• E L Ahrons, "Locomotives of the Egyptian State Railways", Locomotive Magazine, Volume 23 (15 August 1917), pp. 165-167.
• E L Ahrons, "Thirty Years of Locomotive Progress in Egypt", Engineer, Volume 118 (27 November 1914), pp 499-501.

Egyptian State 0-6-0 Locomotives in Egypt: http://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=Egypt&wheel=0-6-0&railroad=es#10467

 

 

 

 

I see looking through the locobase links, that the 2-2-2 classes get a mention as well, and that they were reboilered with a standard “Swindon” look boiler, accounting for the appearance of the one in the photo.

Can we expect to see a Pyramid appearing behind Farthing?

[burgundy]

On 07/11/2020 at 16:26, burgundy said:

If anyone is looking for a kit for an Egyptian State Railways loco in 4mm scale, EBModels @ianmaccormac does a Stephenson 2-2-2. These were originally delivered to the Brighton, but, because of financial embarrassment, four were put up for sale and went to Egypt.  I wonder if any photo survives?

Best wishes 

Eric   

Going back to Bradley (Locos of the LB&SCR Vol 1), the story is even more tortuous. 

The Brighton placed an order for 12 locos from Stephensons in late 1863. Early delivery was sought and offered since the Egyptian State Railway had just cancelled an order for 12 singles.  An abated price was agreed on the strength of using some of the material for the Egyptian order, which had been placed in the name of N Oppenheim and Co of London. Delivery was completed by the end of 1864 but in early 1865 the need had already been identified to strengthen the frames and reduce coal consumption. At the same time as this was going on, Oppenheim and Co came back to the Brighton asking about the sale of any low mileage passenger engines. The Brighton promptly offered them 4 of the Stephensons, turning a profit of £500 per loco and saving the costs of modifications. 

The Brighton did pretty well out of the deal, I don't suppose that N Oppenheim and Co did badly but I am not sure about the Egyptian State Railways! 

Best wishes 

Eric 

Edited November 10, 2020 by burgundy

[Northroader]

You’ll agree, I’m sure, that a model layout is quite a bulky item, even if you try hard to squeeze it down to a minimum. The Spanish layout is a case in point, and I’m thinking about making the best use of the volume, especially if you consider that it will probably manage on two locos and about eight pieces of rolling stock for what I need. There’s some French sets needing a home, as you know, plus other lines, so it would be best to have the layout adaptable for these needs as well, I’m thinking.

The layout is built on very traditional lines, being a ply top on a softwood frame, but this time I decided not to screw the top to the frame. The frame is strengthened by the top, as much as the other way round, so I added brackets inside the corners to help give the frame a bit of support. There’s also an outrigger for the turntable at one end. The top has blocks attached inside the corners, also either side of a transverse member, so that it locates exactly.  At the back of the frame the scenic back is bolted on, and  to the left the fiddle yard is attached. The wiring to the tracks is a simple harness, to connect to the controller, and there’s a jumper feed to the turntable off to the right.

With two unplugs of the wiring, I can ease the top out, stow it on a shelf just underneath, and substitute another top. Likewise the centre bolt of the turntable can be undone, and that can be changed. The fiddle yard is wider than the rest of the layout with room for plenty of cassettes, so Ive now got the built in adaptability I want.

(Addition: since this post, things have moved on, not only with the loss of pictures. Bright idea? Maybe, in practice I found that having a second board was very cumbersome, doing a changeover and stowing it, and there wasn’t really sufficient space for another broad gauge layout. The upshot is that I’ve put off having a 5’6” gauge layout for now, although I’m satisfied in my own mind it is quite a practicable proposition to make. However, as every October 28th comes round, thoughts do turn to somewhere beyond the Pyrenees, maybe if I could just do something really small...??

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Northroader

[Mikkel]

Very ingenious!  So the scenic items will be mounted permanently on each? 

[Northroader]

There shouldn’t be that much. Next task is to do ballast/ ground texturing/ platform surface, which will be permanent, and I’m going to need some unit to drop into the R.H.S, built round the tunnel mouth, although in some circumstances have a tree screen instead. The main station building will be a semi flat structure on a base located by dowels, and perhaps a pointsmans hut near the tunnel. Everything behind will just go on to the backscene painting, and this just clips on to the support back. There’ll be a few people about, and usually they have a brass rod going down from them locating in a small hole in the platform. The whole lot can be picked up and thrown in a box before the baseboard top is changed over in no time, or keep the top and change the system with a new building, backscene, &c.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Northroader

[Mikkel]

Oh yes, had missed the provender wagon! Wine and fodder, them French horses have all the luck.

[Nick_Burman]

On 28/04/2020 at 22:36, Northroader said:

Chimay had its own private railway, the local nobs having dreams of a fast link to Paris over the Ardennes. Politics got in the way, and it ended up being worked by the Nord-Belge, which was the French NORD railway in Belgium, but it wasn’t finally absorbed in the SNCB until 1948.

 

I looked it up in the webs and found some pictures of Cie. de Chimay trains on the web. The locomotives were indeed Nord stock, however they carried CHIMAY rather than NORD on theirs sides. Motive power included some 0-8-0s of Nord design, "Ravachol" 4-4-0Ts and surprisingly, an ex-Prussian G7.1 (Chimay n°21). This last one is a very easy project in HO, take one Piko G7.1 and... One thing which was not Nord stock was a pair of Ganz railcars which later passed into SNCB stock.

 

 

Cheers NB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by Nick_Burman

[Northroader]

C.F. du CHIMAY.

 

I would assume that as it runs in the Ardennes, it would be quite pleasant scenery as well. Do you fancy trying a model of it?

Edited October 20, 2022 by Northroader

[Nick_Burman]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

I would assume that as it runs in the Ardennes, it would be quite pleasant scenery as well. Do you fancy trying a model of it?

 

Yes, the railway ran across the top (literally - the line was built over a watershed boundary to cut construction costs) of the Ardennes which visually is the nicest part of Belgium. Alas I'll skip this one, I already have too many irons in the fire and not enough mojo to stir them. The only easy part is the G7.1; Keyser once did a kit for the "Ravachol" but a) find one and b) find one which runs well (the mere mention of Keyser to some French modellers of a certain generation usually brings forth a torrent of swear words...). Everything else would require either kitbashing or scratchbuilding - era II SNCB and NORD wagons and coaches aren't exactly a dime a dozen. Plus the fact that station buildings did not follow SNCB patterns, meaning field trips to measure buildings - easy from the UK (makes a nice weekend), less so from Italy!

 

 

 

Cheers NB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

A fairly good selection of Nord H0 wagons over the last few years from REE and now some express coaches too.  

 

Add in kits from Huet, Makette AMF87 et al and with a bit of seeking out and some modelling and it could be do-able.

[Mikkel]

This is a bit more modern than what this thread normally sees, but it is Belgian and so good that no excuses are needed anyway:

 

IMGP2400 - Copy by Floris Dilz, on Flickr

 

Cockerill Works, Seraing, in 1:87. Full Flickr album here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/floris_dilz/albums/72157653375997370/page1

[Northroader]

Thanks for that, Mikkel, you’re right it is fantastic modelling, first glance you look again, and then go ‘yes it is a model’, then go along some more, and go, ‘ah, that one isnt’, then look again, and it really is a model. Amazing, then there’s the pipework on the Plasser! and in the middle a picnic, with Chimay beer, no less, sausage and cheese, yum yum. Something to aspire to in quality.

[Mikkel]

Yes it's quite extraordinary. The works are just outside Liége it seems (here on Google maps). About 15 km to the East is Verviers, where my paternal grandfather took this photo in 1926 while travelling. I have sometimes thought it would be nice to model, except there are no trains!

 

 

PS: Apologies for all this Belgian talk, your thread triggers my longing for distant shores! 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Mikkel

[Northroader]

I think round about the time your grandfather was there, the station would look a bit of a mess, as it was being rebuilt, so try a view later. The passenger train looks like a mix of old G.C.I. coaches and Prussian reparations, but in the goods siding, is that a beer van I can see?

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Northroader

[Mikkel]

Very imposing! Some more photos of the gare here: https://www.railstation.be/gare-de-verviers-central/. 

[Northroader]

THE LOCOMOTIVE MAGAZINE. BLOCK ILLUSTRATIONS BY ALBERT JACQUET FOR OLD FRENCH AND BELGIAN LOCOS.

 

No apologies needed for “Belgian talk” there’s bits keep appearing through this thread, and I hope continue. In this connection I thought I’d just touch on a useful source for research on old French and Belgian locos. Back in the 1980s Mike Sharman teamed up with Oakwood Press to bring out a series of books with 7mm drawings of selected lines locos: “The Portfolio Series”, I bought most of them,  and we were promised “Continental Railways. Pre 1870”, but I’m sorry to say it never happened. Probably Oakwood felt that the publications weren’t going as well as hoped, and I fancy the production costs would be higher than usual, as the books were softback, but made up entirely of fold out sheets to allow for 7mm scale drawings.

The source was from the “Locomotive Magazine”, which did articles on lots of Locomotive history illustrated by very good side elevation drawings of the locos involved. It’s a very good place to go for most British pregroup lines. The blocks of these drawings are what appeared in the Oakwood books. The GERS does a useful service by selling either a DVD or  USB download for the L.M. over the initial period of its publication, 1896 - 1923. Sadly the ones I’m on about tonight come after this period, so it’s having to track round major reference libraries to find the relevant volumes, and I’m afraid the drawings are smaller than 7mm.

May I introduce Albert Jacquet, who wrote a series of articles in the L.M. with drawings, which would have formed the basis of the missing Oakwood book. My guess is he was Belgian born, living around 1860 - 1930 time, and here’s a list of the articles, indicating which bit of the L.M. is needed.

Some Early French “Singles” (Nord,Est, PO)                     15/3/1930

                  =.                             (PLM, Nord).                        15/5/1930

                 =.                              (Nord,  Est).                          15/8/1930

                =.                               ( PO, Midi).                            15/10/1930

Early English locos of Belgian Railways. Grand Central.  15/8/1931

               =.                                                            =.                 15/10/1931

               =.                                                            =.                 15/12/1931

Early Belgian locos.                                      S.G.E.                15/3/1932

              =.                                                             =.                 15;4/1932

              =.                                       G. C. Luxembourg.         14/5/1932

              =.                                                             =.                  15/6/1932

              =.                                                             =.                  15/7/1932

              =.                                                             =.                  15/8/1932

Two Famous Engineers (Walschaert, Belpaire)

                                           2-2-2 and 2-4-0 drgs,                      15/9/1932

The Belpaire locos of Belgian State Rlys,          0-6-0.            15/8/1936

                           =.                                                   0-6-0.            15/9/1936

                           =.                                                    2-4-0.            14/11/1936

(not Jacquet, but from Lionel Weiner, and worth including here)

Steam Carriages of Belgian State Railways.                             15/11/1939.

 

Quite a lot of Jacquets early drawings, before LM tidying up, can be accessed off the Tassignon site, with some different jobs, such as a few Austrian and Italian items.

https://www.tassignon.be/trains/documentation/Drawings.php

 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Quite a lot of Jacquets early drawings, before LM tidying up, can be accessed off the Tassignon site, with some different jobs, such as a few Austrian and Italian items.

https://www.tassignon.be/trains/documentation/Drawings.php

 

Under 1894, there's a coloured drawing of an outside cylinder 4-4-0 that would have looked very much at home on the Great Eastern in the seventies.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Compound2632

[Northroader]

Yes, the block of six locos done in 1894 have rather a British look, with Belgian bits added, although the 4-4-0 does look a dead ringer for a LSWR Adams job. I can’t really place the rest, quite an elaborate monogram on one? But then there’s a metre gauge Russian 0-8-0.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Northroader

[Northroader]

BELGIAN PANNIER TANKS.

 

I’ve formed the impression that on RMweb that the phrase “pannier tank” has come to mean that behind all the fancy Dan engines, you can have something that’s homely and forms a comforting presence to fall back on. Normally associated with the GWR, their first one appeared on an experimental 4-4-0 in 1898, followed by a couple of crane tanks, and then it became fitted to 0-6-0 tanks under repair to replace saddle tanks, mainly as being easier to adapt to belpaire fireboxes, and becoming standard on new build engines.

Many early railways soon found that after a few years, locomotive sizes had expanded, and they were left with older engines which were still serviceable, and could be adapted for lighter duties, leading to conversion to tank engines. The Belgian State was one system on the continent doing this, using pannier tanks from the start, and in Albert Jacquets drawings there are two attractive examples of this:

Firstly a 2-2-2 class, from the Arsenal de Malines in 1854, which was used to try out Walschaerts valve gear for the first time, and rebuilt to type 8 pannier tanks in 1867,

 

And a Jacquet drawing of a tender to tank rebuild:

 

Then a class of State goods 0-6-0s built in 1856, and rebuilt to panniers from 1866, type 52:

 

Also from 1866, building commenced of an extensive series of pannier tanks from the leading builders, to finally total  470, the type 51. I’d suggest this is the teddy bear you’d want to take to bed.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Northroader

[Mikkel]

11 hours ago, Northroader said:

a 2-2-2 class, from the Arsenal de Malines

 

A wonderful machine.  Jules Verne would have loved it! 

 

I tried a Google search to see if it had ever been modelled, but all I got was football results 

[bbishop]

There is another class 51 on page 22 of Pat Ransome-Wallis's "The Last Steam Locomotives of Western Europe".  Bill

[Nick_Burman]

Rummaging through the internet I discovered much to my surprise that a number of New South Wales Government Railways D50 class 2-8-0s never made it to Australia - the ROD nabbed them, then unloaded the locos onto the Nord Belge:  https://www.rixke.tassignon.be/spip.php?article527&lang=fr&artpage=2-2 (scroll down). Some lasted long enough to become SNCB stock as Type 76.

 

BTW, this is worth looking at: 

https://www.rixke.tassignon.be/spip.php?article947&lang=fr

 

Cheers Nicholas

Edited December 2, 2020 by Nick_Burman
Links removed - unsafe

[Northroader]

BELGIAN STATE CLASS 51 0-6-0PT.

 

The trouble with the Ransome Wallis photo is that someone has removed the lovely brass cap that the square chimney locos had, making it look very ornery. All the detail is good otherwise.

Heres a link to a site giving details of the type 51, numbers, builders, and dimensions. There’s also a nice drawing, although I haven’t worked out how to do a download of it.

http://www.museedelaporte.be/patrimoine/?p=4795

By the way, looking at that site, it lists all the loco builders that built some of these. You could build up your own league to match Mikkel’s football results when you see how many constructors there were, and I think all were Belgian.

 

Tread carefully with links Nick has posted, the “Rixke” bit added to them is very dodgy, according to my software. (I’ve reported them, and the management have taken them off. Sorry, Nick, not blaming you)

Edited May 24, 2022 by Northroader

[cctransuk]

On 06/03/2020 at 18:08, rockershovel said:

 

Being a genooine-bedoowine, all-weather-leather cockney, I learnt about Gog and Magog when living in Cambridge in the 1960s. The low chalk uplands roughly bounded by Lime Kiln Hill and Wandlebury Rise are known as “The Gogs”, although quite why is anyone’s guess. 

 

Because the Iron Age hill fort, at the top of the rise above the New Addenbrookes Hospital, is the reputed / legendary resting place of the ancient giants Gog and Magog.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood;

(late, forty-year denizen of Cambridge).

[rockershovel]

8 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Because the Iron Age hill fort, at the top of the rise above the New Addenbrookes Hospital, is the reputed / legendary resting place of the ancient giants Gog and Magog.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood;

(late, forty-year denizen of Cambridge).

 

That would be Wandlebury Ring?