Two Baseboard Questions For Our First Layout

[Owen E]

My wife and I are planning our first layout, in time for our eldest son's next birthday in May. (It's a whole family affair - we like trains, our eldest is train-mad, and my dad was a great fan of Dublo and is very excited about running trains on ours...and one of our best friends is considering getting into the hobby, too!)

 

The plan is 6x4 double loop with one external siding and some internal sidings. We may slightly widen the short side as a placeholder for a future OO9 project. The layout needs to be portable. My two questions, then:

 

(1) To make it portable, the best idea seems to be to split to 2 x 3x4 baseboard sections. What is the general wisdom on continuity over section joins? What do people advise for clipping sections together when they're being put out?

 

(2) What are the advantages and disadvantages of a layer of closed cell foam or similar on top of the baseboards?

 

Thanks in advance for the communal wisdom incoming.

[HLT 0109]

Welcome to the forum and to this great hobby.  I hope you find my comments helpful.

 

The first thing is to make sure your four baseboard tops are perfectly level once they have been attached to the frame - ie not warped or twisted - so that, when each is offered up to the other, it gives a smooth transition between them.  Next it is essential to ensure that, when fastened together, they always give a smooth transition at the top of the rails where they cross the join.  Some people rely on clamps which have the advantage of simplicity and are readily adjustable but, equally, they can easily slip.  The best method is to use alignment dowels in the mating faces of the frames of the two boards.These are two-part metal devices, male/female, and need to be very carefully placed - but they do ensure perfect alignment if placed accurately.  When laying track, it can be laid across the baseboard joint and sawed afterwards but I tend to lay a fresh piece of track up to the very edge of each board while the completed boards are fastened together.  If flat-headed screws are insereted underneath where each rail goes, each rail can be soldered to the screw, ensuring positive fixing of the rails.  Prior to soldering the vertical and horizontal alignment of the rail can be adjusted to compensate for any minor unevenness.

 

As for clipping sections together, nuts, bolts and washers are traditionally used to fix the baseboard sections together (the dowels taking care of alignment of any and all rails that cross the join).  On the other hand, clamps could be used.  As for electrical supply, if you have a power bus under the boards (split at the join with male/female plugs) and droppers from the rails to the power bus, there is no need for fishplates where the rails cross the baseboard joint.

 

I am not in favour of foam baseboard tops - or indeed cork underlay either.  Foam is easily dented which can upset track level.  It (and cork) does quieten the running - until the track is ballasted - but a thin layer of underlay just underneath the track, gives a neat shoulder to the trackbed if you are modfelling the steam era.

 

Good luck - take your time!

Harold.

 

 

[DCB]

What are you planning on putting these "Base Boards" on exactly?     The old  6X4 fits a double bed.   (which is 76" X 54")  Its a big lump, quite light when made of hardboard and 2" X 1"  timber, but about as portable as a wardrobe.   Splitting the 6X4 in half to fit a double bed yet be easy to store sounds good, but if its free standing what are you going to use for legs?   Or does it sit on the floor?  If its not supported the 4x3 +4x3 will sag in the middle.

So really first consideration, what is it going to sit on.  Next considerations are a flow chart depending on the answer to "What is it going to sit on?"  

[Jeff Smith]

I think you might want to consider increasing the size to 8x4 split into two 4x4.  These are still quite big but will give you more space to avoid any points crossing the baseboard joint.

 

An old but very practical solution to baseboard joints is to use two flat 2 or 3 inch hinges vertically on the outside of the framing across the joint.  This gives positive positioning in all three axes.  Replace the hinge pins with tight fitting L shaped pins for easy removal and fitting, or just knock the pins in and out with a pin punch!

[Pete the Elaner]

11 hours ago, HLT 0109 said:

 

I am not in favour of foam baseboard tops - or indeed cork underlay either.  Foam is easily dented which can upset track level.  It (and cork) does quieten the running - until the track is ballasted - but a thin layer of underlay just underneath the track, gives a neat shoulder to the trackbed if you are modfelling the steam era.

 

This is because most people fix ballast down by soaking it with diluted PVA because it is cheap & easily available. I've seen magazine articles just take this as the 'tried & tested' method of fixing ballast.

The problem is that it is a resin, so it soaks into everything & dries rock hard.

In my opinion, this makes PVA unsuitable for this technique of ballasting, but it is one of the things which few people have questioned.

The alternatives are to either use PVA differently by painting it between the rails (so it doesn't soak in), then sprinkling the ballast on top, or use a different adhesive altogether.

 

But if you don't intend to ballast the track, there is no doubt that it will make running much quieter.

[JimFin]

Some good advice above, to which I would add -

 

Don't use MDF for the baseboard tops. It will almost certainly warp / blow over time and give you no end of trouble. Stick with an exterior / marine grade plywood.

 

Alignment dowels in the joining faces with over centre snap clips on the edges of the baseboard are an effective and quick solution to link the boards together.

 

Having short (2" / 50mm) sections of track that you drop in over the base board joins once the layout is hooked together is another solution to continuity.

 

On my exhibition layouts, I use a product called Tracklay which is a closed cell foam but self adhesive on the ballast side. This gives a degree of sound deadening and a raised edge to the trackbed. I would agree that using PVA to fix ballast has a number of issues and I would not recommend it. I use artists Matt Medium ( Windsor and Newton / Daler Rowney) diluted 50 / 50 with water and dropped on to the ballast. Is remains flexible, almost toffee like, allowing some adjustment for a few days before setting, even then its not a firm as PVA which sets rock solid. An alternative is commercially produced pre-ballasted underlay (Gaugemaster / Noch). I used this on a small N gauge layout and was pleasantly surprised at how effective it was, very easy to use and much less time consuming.

 

Hope you have lots of fun with the project!

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by JimFin

[Jeff Smith]

Even if you use the rock-solid diluted PVA method of ballasting you can reduce the noise somewhat by attaching sound deadening sheet material to the underside of the baseboard.

[Robert Stokes]

17 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

quite light when made of hardboard and 2" X 1"  timber 

 

I would argue strongly against the use of hardboard. It is so thin that it bends easily and won't easily take pins if that is how you intend fitting the track (but gluing is better).

 

9 hours ago, JimFin said:

Stick with an exterior / marine grade plywood.

 

I think that this is an unnecessarily expensive option (although a good one). If the layout is to be kept indoors then ordinary plywood should be O.K. In fact I have had a layout made of ordinary hardwood ply in a shed for years without any problems.

 

Robert

Edited February 5, 2020 by Robert Stokes

[JimFin]

39 minutes ago, Robert Stokes said:

 

 think that this is an unnecessarily expensive option (although a good one). If the layout is to be kept indoors then ordinary plywood should be O.K. In fact I have had a layout made of ordinary hardwood ply in a shed for years without any problems.

 

Glad you have not had a problem Robert, I had basic ply come up in a whole series of ridges as the first ply layer delaminate just with putting modroc on it and leaving it to dry. I was pleasantly surprised when my local timber merchant (rather than DIY store) quoted only £7 difference for external grade on an 8 X 4 sheet. 

[Jeff Smith]

Even the cheapest ply or particle board can be painted or sealed to prevent moisture ingress.  In the US roofing ply is fairly low quality cheap ply but is meant to be protected from moisture.

[DCB]

A word of caution re Ply vs Hardboard.  Hardboard is easy to shape and easy to smooth off the edges to a child proof profile. 

Ply has nasty end grain at the edges which can cause nasty cuts and scratches. 

If you change the hardboard for plywood on the traditional 2X1 braced baseboard  then the edges need to be carefully smoothed and sealed to avoid splinters and sharp edges, in fact I would not use ply unless it had edging to hide the nasty end grain.  MDF comes somewhere between the two. My table top test track, cut down from my son's first layout is something like 12MM ply unbraced but with 25mm X 8mm strips protecting the edges.  Its about 36" X 42" and monstrously heavy but sits on the dining room table with the edges both above and below the surface which locates it on the table.

My lift out sections had 3mm (?) MDF with 2X 1 framing, long side Horizontal cross ways and vertical length ways, with the vertical slotted at mid height to take the MDF.    Then there was the thin ply sandwiching a cardboard honeycomb, solid oak and concrete, as well as laying directly on the carpet and the patio at the holiday let.   Oh and 9mm fibre board on 2 X 1 and Sundela board on 2 X 1.      They all have their advantages, none are perfect but I only have scars from the plywood.

 

[Junctionmad]

2x1 and ply is in my view , rubbish , the materials are different, expansion and contraction are different and half the time the ply ends up supporting the deal. 

 

Brace ply with ply, ours is 6mm ply top braced with a matrix of 120mm deep 6mm pieces all CNC cut. Fixing is using tape and glue, no screws , end cheeks  are 15mm ply 

 

Easy to build heavy and strong , easy to build light and weak , the trick is light and strong 

 

Don’t use MDF for any horizontal surfaces , it always dips after a while , keep it for kitchen cabinets . MDF weighs a ton too 

 

use good quality Scandiavian  or Russian birch ply, interior moisture resistant grade is more then sufficent. WBP is way over the top and often ply marked as ” marine “ is far eastern junk and full of voids , certified marine ply is very expensive 

 

Use metal alignment dowels , ( pattern maker dowels ) and a adjustable toggle  catch to hold the boards together , toggle catches can be engaged with one hand , which is useful when assembling baseboards 

 

we’ve built a 20 baseboard O gauge exhibition layout on this basis. No issue so far after 6 outings and numerous assembly and disassembly actions ( we can only typically erect part of it in our clubhouse ) 

 

we used 6mm cork, and yes PVA , might have well not bothered. next extension will use two  layers of 3mm closed cell foam , so that the ballast and hence the PVA never come in contact with the ply. , ie one layer forms the shoulder and the other insulates the ballest from the ply. 

 

To ensure smooth cuts to ply , try and get the sheets cut in a scoring saw , preferably CNC , that’s what’s we did. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Junctionmad

[Pete the Elaner]

8 hours ago, Junctionmad said:

 

Easy to build heavy and strong , easy to build light and weak , the trick is light and strong 

 

 

Very true. Getting a nice balance between weight & strength is not at all easy.

[Junctionmad]

From bitter experience hardboard is a disaster and Sundela is good for notice boards and not much else 

 

chipboard is useless and MDF isn’t much better unless massively supported and ends up heavier then the forth bridge . woe betide you if any moisture gets in over time. also the mdf in most hardware stores is often very dubious quality. buy your panels from a serious trade sheet materials supplier, after all the baseboard will be used for years and you rely on it intrinsically, spend less on your models and divert more to your baseboards  
 

I put a sample of my construction using 6mm birch ply into my steel tool shed for  two winters. It’s still completely usable and didn’t warp. Mine unlike the clubs are taped with fibreglass resin whereas the clubs are tape and PVA 

 

i also  put a piece outside for the same duration it went grey and yucky but it still usable and still shows no obvious delamination  .  The MdF pieces can’t even be burnt at this stage  

Edited February 7, 2020 by Junctionmad

[Dave Hunt]

Junctionmad's suggestions get my vote - exactly what I've used and had no issues whatever. And it really is woth getting genuine Baltic or Russian birch ply. A friend of mine bought some ordinary far eastern ply from a local merchant and stored it in a dry, heated building; when he came to use it two weeks later it was warped beyond recovery.

 

Dave

[Harlequin]

MDF = Most Dangerous Fibres.

You must wear breathing protection when cutting it because the fibres are so small and fine they will get into your lungs if you don't.

Any dust collection bags you might be using with power tools will almost immediately become blocked as the fibres clog up the filters.

Best to steer clear of it for that reason alone, IMHO.

 

Ply is the way to go, but if you care about such things, check the sustainability of the source. For instance, Nordic and Baltic Birch ply is generally better managed than Russian.

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Harlequin

[Owen E]

Loads of excellent stuff here, thanks guys.

 

The plan is ply. Toggle catches also sound good and are somewhat what I'd imagined. Re surface - our dining table is a slightly odd 7x3.5 or so, so 8x4 is plausible, if even more unwieldy even when broken down (but that's the deal here, right?).

 

What sort of battening should I look for underneath and what guardrails on top? Obviously some preliminary suggestions above, but knowing the costs/benefits of that would be helpful.

 

I suppose a related question to that is the issue of wiring; as one correspondent suggests above, running the wiring underneath seems to be the best solution for continuity. Whilst I've been learning a lot about electricity getting into the hobby, that's certainly another step into the abyss, and I'll need to do some research/ask for help on that.

[Jeff Smith]

It sounds as though your layout is going to be stored, then set up for running sessions then stored again?  Are you intending to permanently attach and wire the track and scenic items?  What type of track are you looking at?

Edited February 7, 2020 by Jeff Smith
Missing word

[Owen E]

Hi Jeff -

 

The OO track is Hornby setrack.

 

Large scenics would be detachable.

 

The track would be permanently attached - I'm considering ways to do that.

 

Wiring would need to be detachable - which is simple enough for the powertrack, but I'm an amateur when it comes to the idea of wiring the track together for continuity across the baseboards.

[Robert Stokes]

Earlier I did not advocate hardboard for the layout top, but it is very good for trimming round the edge. If you use 9mm plywood with 44 by 18mm planed wood battens set with the 44mm sides vertical, then strips of hardboard about 70 to 80mm high make good edging. This gets over the problem of splinters mentioned above. Some suppliers will cut a sheet for you so that all the pieces are the same width with perfectly straight edges. However you may wish to make the tops wavy to go with gently rolling scenery.

 

For wiring between the boards you can buy miniature 2 pin plugs and sockets.

 

Are you thinking of using a DCC controller? I would recommend it. 

 

Robert

[Owen E]

Plugs and sockets sound good - if anyone has any to recommend, do drop a link.

 

No, we'll be on DC. For a few reasons, mostly relating to finance, this is the better bet. Perhaps DCC for a future layout!

[Jeff Smith]

I am not familiar with the type of plastic that Hornby track is made from but back in my OO days I used to stick down Peco Streamline with white PVA.  This secures it quite well but not as permanently as contact adhesive.  Another, and possibly better adhesive would be Copydex or similar rubber based adhesive.  Using Hornby track you could paint the adhesive onto the baseboard, set the track in place and then sprinkle some ballast on while the glue is still wet!

 

Hornby track is designed to carry the continuity through the track joiners.  This works quite well if you periodically take the track apart as the wiping effect renews the contact, however with track permanently laid the resistance at the joint can increase over time leading to voltage drops.  The normal way to overcome this is to solder one or two dropper wires to each piece of rail with the droppers going through the baseboard and being soldered to a bus underneath; two busses one positive and one negative mirroring the rails above.  This sounds complicated and I would suggest only doing if you find low voltage problems.  Don't solder the rail joiners to the rail as you may run into expansion/contraction problems depending upon the temperature extremes that the stored layout might see, ie in a garage or shed.

 

Regarding track across baseboard joints, on my On30 layout, which used OO gauge track, I assembled the baseboards together and stuck down two pieces of Bachmann sectional track joined together with the join exactly over the baseboard joint.  I used contact adhesive and when dry was able to separate the baseboards.  So this meant that the rail joiners aligned the rails and carried the current.  I only kept the layout for a short time so didn't see any voltage drop problems!  The obvious disadvantage is the fragility of the joiners when the boards are separated.  Another way is to use short pieces of track to bridge across the join when you assemble the baseboards.

[Owen E]

I think going along your lines, Jeff, may be best for our first amateur attempts. The other option would be the miniature plugs/sockets.

 

If there's no underwiring, how necessary would underbattening be?

[DavidB-AU]

Rather than 2 solid 3x4 boards, I'd suggest having a look at the Heart of Georgia benchwork. That takes up no more floor space than a 6x4 when you take into account access space, plus it's truly portable and packs away into a relatively small space.

 

Cheers

David

[Jeff Smith]

I guess it might depend on whether you want a roundy layout to watch the trains go by or a shunting terminus type layout?