Worst looking locomotive topic. Antidote to Best Looking Locomotive topic.

[rodent279]

On 13/08/2020 at 14:51, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Neil,

 

Interesting points you make there, we could perhaps also place both the AC and DC electrics into the mix, all of which had flat fronts. It would be interesting to see some of the diesel classes with the cab style of a class 81 for instance. The re-engineering of body shape didn't do BRCW any favours in the case of the narrowed class 33 and I suspect that even more radical alteration of the 37 would have been a lot more troublesome.

 

Having ridden on various locomotives on the main lines I can say that disparity in the the visibility from the cab of a class 37 compared to a class 47 is inconsequential as compared to that of from the cab of steam locomotives.

 

Gibbo.

I've wondered what the AC electrics would have liked like, had the various manufacturers had more of a free hand in styling them. Would the class 85's, built at Doncaster, have looked more like an AC version of class 71's? Could EE's class 83's have looked like class 37's or Baby Deltics, or even class 73's? Would AEI/MV  have turned out a class 82 that like a bit like a CoBo?

[Ramblin Rich]

10 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

I've wondered what the AC electrics would have liked like, had the various manufacturers had more of a free hand in styling them. Would the class 85's, built at Doncaster, have looked more like an AC version of class 71's? Could EE's class 83's have looked like class 37's or Baby Deltics, or even class 73's? Would AEI/MV  have turned out a class 82 that like a bit like a CoBo?

85s like 71s - ok, I suppose 

 

83s with a nose - hope not, extra length, weight and bit old fashioned. 73s were really Eastleigh Works designed, not EE, they just built 2nd batch.

 

82s like CoBo - please, in the name of everything decent, why would you choose to inflict that styling nightmare on any other class? Even as a BoBo design, the front end would, as I said much earlier in the thread, look like it had crashed into an ugly wall. At speed. (And in practice, that sad eye look was to accommodate nose doors which weren't necessary with the AC classes)

[DavidB-AU]

Here's a hypothetical I did for the imaginary locomotives topic. What if Derby had a go at building electric locos?

 

 

Cheers

David

[Ramblin Rich]

6 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

Here's a hypothetical I did for the imaginary locomotives topic. What if Derby had a go at building electric locos?

 

 

Cheers

David

A 25/E?

[The Johnster]

Needs Hymek type Commonwealth bogies, otherwise the ride is going to be dreadful!  This eats into the fuel tank space but, hey, it's an electric, it doesn't need fuel tanks.  I have to say the electric blue livery sits well on the class 25 body; what sort of nominal bhp are we talking about, 2,000 or so?  It would have been much more use than the pathetic 25s and 2 coaches better than a class 40.  It might have weighed about 75 tons with ballast!

[The Johnster]

An AEI styled 25kv electric might have taken some inspiration from the gas turbine 18100, which became E2001, not dissimilar to what was actually built.

 

Weren't the E5xxx locos based on Swiss styling? 

[pete_mcfarlane]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Weren't the E5xxx locos based on Swiss styling? 

I thought it was the other way round - the boxy looking body from the Swiss locos they were based on was 'improved' by the Design Panel.  I think this is mentioned in one of Arthur Taylers's books on Southern traction, where he complains about how much this added to the cost. 

[Gibbo675]

20 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I've wondered what the AC electrics would have liked like, had the various manufacturers had more of a free hand in styling them. Would the class 85's, built at Doncaster, have looked more like an AC version of class 71's? Could EE's class 83's have looked like class 37's or Baby Deltics, or even class 73's? Would AEI/MV  have turned out a class 82 that like a bit like a CoBo?

 

20 hours ago, Ramblin Rich said:

85s like 71s - ok, I suppose 

 

83s with a nose - hope not, extra length, weight and bit old fashioned. 73s were really Eastleigh Works designed, not EE, they just built 2nd batch.

 

82s like CoBo - please, in the name of everything decent, why would you choose to inflict that styling nightmare on any other class? Even as a BoBo design, the front end would, as I said much earlier in the thread, look like it had crashed into an ugly wall. At speed. (And in practice, that sad eye look was to accommodate nose doors which weren't necessary with the AC classes)

Hi Chaps,

 

The idea of a class 71 style class 85 appeals although I'm intrigued that the EE Co. class 83 could have had a nose end such as a Baby Deltic, I would have thought something with two windows more like the Australian 1250 class but without the sun visor.

 

I do think that the Beyer Peacock class 82's could have had a Hymek style cab although the thought of the class 84 looking like the either of the Warship types is certainly an interesting prospect.

 

SAR class 3E were very similar to the Metropolitan Vickers 18100 / E1000 which shows their inhouse style.

 

The WCML would have looked quite different should any of the above taken shape.

 

Gibbo.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Gibbo675
Spelling

[rodent279]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

An AEI styled 25kv electric might have taken some inspiration from the gas turbine 18100, which became E2001, not dissimilar to what was actually built.

 

Weren't the E5xxx locos based on Swiss styling? 

Yes, good point, a Bo-Bo version of the Metro-Vick gas turbine is plausible. Looking at the bogies, 82's have a similar side bolster arrangement to 18100, and the bogies on an 82 are not a million miles from Hymek bogies either.

I guess an EE product looking like the Australian/Spanish/Dutch electrics that EE built is plausible, I think it would have ended up remaining resembling a Bo-Bo Deltic with a pantograph.

As for the Derby type 2 style electric-can't see why it shouldn't be the same power as a class 83, there can't be much difference in size. Personally, I don't like it, but that's just my opinion.

[DavidB-AU]

As well as the Australian/Spanish/Dutch/Indian style electrics, EE also built a more boxy style for export mainly to South Africa and New Zealand which look quite Swiss in origin. In fact the NZ ED class was a very Swiss 1-Do-2.

 

Cheers
David

[rodent279]

6 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

As well as the Australian/Spanish/Dutch/Indian style electrics, EE also built a more boxy style for export mainly to South Africa and New Zealand which look quite Swiss in origin. In fact the NZ ED class was a very Swiss 1-Do-2.

 

Cheers
David

A 1-Do-2 AC electric-now that's an interesting idea!

 

I wish BR had tried some French "nez casse" styling. I've always like those, especially CC6500's and BB15000's.

 

[rodent279]

16 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

 

Hi Chaps,

 

The idea of a class 71 style class 85 appeals although I'm intrigued that the EE Co. class 83 could have had a nose end such as a Baby Deltic, I would have thought something with two windows more like the Australian 1250 class but without the sun visor.

 

I do think that the Beyer Peacock class 82's could have had a Hymek style cab although the thought of the class 84 looking like the either of the Warship types is certainly an interesting prospect.

 

SAR class 3E were very similar to the Metropolitan Vickers 18100 / E1000 which shows their inhouse style.

 

The WCML would have looked quite different should any of the above taken shape.

 

Gibbo.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't like 73's, there's something about the plain boxy style that appeals to me, but I think they were a retrograde step in styling terms from the class 71. An AC class 71 might have to be slightly longer, and would presumably have had a lower central roof section all the way between the cab roofs.

I also wonder whether an AC/DC version of a class 71/73 would have been of use, for through traffic to the WCML?

Edited December 9, 2020 by rodent279

[rodent279]

On 09/12/2020 at 08:09, rodent279 said:

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't like 73's, there's something about the plain boxy style that appeals to me, but I think they were a retrograde step in styling terms from the class 71. An AC class 71 might have to be slightly longer, and would presumably have had a lower central roof section all the way between the cab roofs.

I also wonder whether an AC/DC version of a class 71/73 would have been of use, for through traffic to the WCML?

Class 71's, at a bit over 15m, were quite short for a mainline Bo-Bo. Class 73's are 1m longer, no doubt to accommodate the engine & generator set. Class 83's, the shortest AC electric, were 16m long, and class 85 17m long, so I would think a class 85 styled like a 71 would be at least the length of an 83.

[rockershovel]

On 09/12/2020 at 07:22, rodent279 said:

A 1-Do-2 AC electric-now that's an interesting idea!

 

I wish BR had tried some French "nez casse" styling. I've always like those, especially CC6500's and BB15000's.

 

 

Isn’t “ness Cassé” French for “like a Hymek, sort of”? 

[rodent279]

6 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

Isn’t “ness Cassé” French for “like a Hymek, sort of”? 

No, I think it means broken nose. But I see what you mean!

[rockershovel]

2 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

No, I think it means broken nose. But I see what you mean!

 

I knew dat, I knew dat..... personally I much prefer the “shark nose” version... 

[Welly]

On 09/12/2020 at 07:22, rodent279 said:

I wish BR had tried some French "nez casse" styling. I've always like those, especially CC6500's and BB15000's.

I love the "Nez Casse" style of loco cabs - so very French! I understand Paul Arzens, the industrial designer, came up with the upswept windscreens to reduce the glare of sunlight when driving to the Mediterranean coast. Hardly needed in this country...

[westerner]

Hardly needed in this country... 

 

Tell that to drivers of Westerns on hot sunny days.

[pete_mcfarlane]

 

On 09/12/2020 at 07:22, rodent279 said:

I wish BR had tried some French "nez casse" styling. I've always like those, especially CC6500's and BB15000's.

 

Here you go - it's only a mockup, but I prefer it to the one they selected. 

http://www.traintesting.com/images/class 60 mock ups.JPG

http://www.traintesting.com/Class_60.htm

[pete_mcfarlane]

On 09/12/2020 at 08:09, rodent279 said:

I also wonder whether an AC/DC version of a class 71/73 would have been of use, for through traffic to the WCML?

There are drawings in the Brian Haresnape book on BR electric locos of just such a thing - looking like a stretched Co-Co version of the class 86/7 body style. It was a 1960s proposal for working Channel Tunnel traffic. 

[Gibbo675]

11 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

 

Here you go - it's only a mockup, but I prefer it to the one they selected. 

http://www.traintesting.com/images/class 60 mock ups.JPG

http://www.traintesting.com/Class_60.htm

Hi Pete,

 

I vaguely remember that photograph appearing in Rail or similar back in the day. Strange that they both got the same number.

 

Gibbo.

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, Welly said:

I love the "Nez Casse" style of loco cabs - so very French! I understand Paul Arzens, the industrial designer, came up with the upswept windscreens to reduce the glare of sunlight when driving to the Mediterranean coast. Hardly needed in this country...

 

Hardly new. It was a common feature of sea-going vessel bridges, long ago. 

[DavidB-AU]

2 hours ago, Welly said:

I love the "Nez Casse" style of loco cabs - so very French! I understand Paul Arzens, the industrial designer, came up with the upswept windscreens to reduce the glare of sunlight when driving to the Mediterranean coast. Hardly needed in this country...

 

Also very common in Australia where it is known as the "Pilbara cab", as many mining railways in the Pilbara region of Western Australia adopted the design. Not quite as attractive as the French cabs but brutishly functional in a region where 45° C is common.

 

[rockershovel]

6 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

Also very common in Australia where it is known as the "Pilbara cab", as many mining railways in the Pilbara region of Western Australia adopted the design. Not quite as attractive as the French cabs but brutishly functional in a region where 45° C is common.

 

 

It’s a very functional design, gives good vision down as well. 

[pete_mcfarlane]

11 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Pete,

 

I vaguely remember that photograph appearing in Rail or similar back in the day. Strange that they both got the same number.

 

Gibbo.

Yes, I've still got that issue somewhere. I have a vague memory that the article said the Br engineers preferred the French style cab end. It looks like a natural evolution of the class 58 cab.