'Celebrating 100 Years of Hornby' Train Set, Centenary Year Limited Edition.

[Robin Brasher]

At about £249.99 the R1251M  black Princess Elizabeth set represents excellent value for money.  The sum of similar individual items comes to about £334.08. It is based on the original Rovex set which cost about £3. 9s 0p which was a about the same as a Hornby Dublo 'Duchess of Montrose'.  Rovex had not completely nationalised their railway in 1950 and the set came with a British Railways cycling lion locomotive and two LMS coaches. According to 'Tri=ang Railways' by Pat Hammond Rovex made 45,000 of these sets. My picture shows a similar Tri-ang R1X set.  Tri-ang sold 65,000 of these sets and I think that it marks the true beginning of Hornby Railways rather than tracing their ancestry to Hornby 0 gauge. The new set should be available in September.

[Robin Brasher]

One advantage of the original set over the new Hornby set is that the Rovex set took up an area of 4' 1" x 2' 3" which you could set up on the lounge table without needing to build a baseboard.

 

The new Hornby set with 3rd radius curves takes up a space of 4' 2" x 3' 6"  which will require a baseboard which is too large to fit in a small hatchback.  If the set had 2nd radius curves the layout would fit on a 4' x 3' baseboard which could be taken to the model railway club in one piece by car.

 

 

[Henry 84F]

Really looking forward to this one, especially because the catalogue suggests it will be the new tooling Princess Royal (I can't think why it wouldn't be) - which is a fantastic product.

 

I hope all staff/workers overseas are keeping themselves safe over the next few weeks and if the September date gets pushed back, then so be it.

 

Images of 46201 in BR lined black are fairly elusive despite the 6201 website itself stating that it wore this guise for the length of time between 1948 and 1952, so it should be good to see it in scaled-down form.

 

Henry

[Robin Brasher]

Quote

 

 

15 minutes ago, Henry 84F said:

 

 

Images of 46201 in BR lined black are fairly elusive despite the 6201 website itself stating that it wore this guise for the length of time between 1948 and 1952, so it should be good to see it in scaled-down form.

 

Henry

I had not noticed that the black 'Princess Elizabeth' will be lined.  The original Tri-ang model was in unlined black  which was the British Railways goods livery.  I thought that this was a bit odd for an express passenger engine and that it was an LMS black engine with the cycling lion crest. I assume that lined black was one of British Railways' experimental colour schemes.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

BR Lined black (to be used for smaller passenger and mixed traffic locos...) was very LNWR...

 

Crewe...

 

LMS...

 

The Princess class home...

 

 

Britannia cane out of Crewe in unlined Black....

Edited March 20, 2020 by Sarahagain

[Robin Brasher]

I have heard that Riddles wanted all the British Railways locomotives to be black. In the events only the express passenger locomotives were not black and only a small percentage of locomotives were express locomotives so Riddles claimed a moral victory.

 

[No Decorum]

He was an LNWR man originally – hence his liking for black. Old loyalties die hard!

[The Johnster]

On 20/03/2020 at 09:40, Robin Brasher said:

At about £249.99 the R1251M  black Princess Elizabeth set represents excellent value for money.  The sum of similar individual items comes to about £334.08. It is based on the original Rovex set which cost about £3. 9s 0p which was a about the same as a Hornby Dublo 'Duchess of Montrose'.  Rovex had not completely nationalised their railway in 1950 and the set came with a British Railways cycling lion locomotive and two LMS coaches. According to 'Tri=ang Railways' by Pat Hammond Rovex made 45,000 of these sets. My picture shows a similar Tri-ang R1X set.  Tri-ang sold 65,000 of these sets and I think that it marks the true beginning of Hornby Railways rather than tracing their ancestry to Hornby 0 gauge. The new set should be available in September.

The set in the photo isn't a 1950 product, though; I had one in 1956 and the coaches were still the original Rovex 6" banana roof types.  Think these 7" Staniers were produced the following year.  I agree it is more representative of the beginning of what is now Hornby, genetically Rovex/Triang, than Hornby Dublo or O gauge, but the Hornby name is iconic and while we all know the true story, don't we, children, the public at large don't.

 

It is my view that the concurrent HD 3-rail was doomed, and they responded with 2 rail versions of everything in their range fairly quickly after the Triang range began to expand, but the cost of their products could not be controlled, and the two ranges running alongside each other couldn't have helped.  Trix Twin were not even a proper player until the 60s IMHO, and shot themselves in the foot with an odd scale (not that 00 isn't odd in itself, but it was very much a standard by then).

 

As for Princess Elizabeth, current Hornby and the hobby in general owe much to the Black Princess, which proved the concept of 2-rail RTR which more than one experienced and respected modeller of the time considered impossible.  I am not expert in the matter of very early LMR liveries, but am aware that the original instruction from Marylebone Road on liveries was to carry on with the existing livery and letter tank sides and tenders with 'British Railways' in whatever script you were using previously.  The Southern took this to mean Sunshine lettering and the WR reverted to their 1920s 'Egyptian Serif'.  This was the situation between 1/1/48 and 31/5/48 when the next instruction was issued.  Locos band stock outshopped in that period should therefore have carried whatever livery they would have carried prior to 1/1/48, in Princess Elizabeth's case assuming she was outshopped in this timeframe black with straw lining and British Railways in an LMS post war style on the tender.

 

By 31/5/48, some decisions had been taken on liveries, and a blue lined livery was adopted for 8P locos.  GW style lined green was used for other passenger locos, LNWR lined black for mixed traffic, and plain black for everything else.  British Railways now appeared on tank/tender sides in LNER style Gill Sans, which was also used for cabside numbers except for ex GW locos which retained their cast plates in order to use up the 1-9999 number block. 10000-19999 were allox to diesel locos, and 20000-29999 to electrics, with 3 prefixes for Southern, 4/5 for ex LMS (which had more than 10,000 locos) and 6 for ex LNER locos, which retained their original numbers following the prefix.  The LNER was half way through a renumbering operation and it's locos were given the 'new' numbers, 6 prefixed.  7, 8, and 9 prefixes were for the proposed new Standards and the Austerities; some of these had been purchased by the LNER and some were to be transferred to BR from the Ministry of Supply but were still in storage at this date IIRC.  During the interim 5 months, some LMR locos were outshopped with 'M' prefixes to their allocated LMS numbers.

 

The next development came 1/5/49 IIRC with the introduction of the unicycling lion emblem.  So, if PE was outshopped after this, as the Rovex model is presented, the model carries the number correctly and the unicycling lion but should be in blue livery.  I have no idea if the loco was ever outshopped in plain black, but apparently it did carry the BR lined black livery at one time around this period.  There is a later Triang version of it carrying this livery but the lining is only applied to the cab, not the boiler, cylinders, running plate, or tender.  I do not know how much lining was carried by the real prototype so for all I know this is correct.  I am fairly, but not completely, certain that plain black is not.  BR (LNWR type) livery should not have been applied at any time to an 8P pacific, but there were quite a few anomalies with liveries at this time and it is known that Riddles wanted to use the LNWR livery.

 

Blue livery was discontinued in 1950 AFAIK, so there were examples of 8P locos carrying it with both British Railways lettering and the unicycling lion.  I think the blue applied to Mallard and SNG was a different shade, and there had also been an experimental application of a Caledonian type livery on 8Ps.  I think, but do not wish to state, that the first properly correct livery on a Rovex/Triang Princess was on the first green liveried model with 'operating Walchaerts valve gear'.

 

There were certainly plenty of livery anomalies in the early 50s.  Jinties should never have had the lined black livery, but Fowler 2P and 4Ps shouldn't either, they should have been lined green.  8750 panniers for ecs work at Paddinton were given lined black as well.  The Southern painted it's 5P Schools class in lined black until 1956.  Post 1956, regions were given more autonomy with liveries, which led to the LMR painting some Princesses and some Duchesses in Midland/LMS style lined maroon and some in a BR lined version of it, and the WR applying lined green to mixed traffic locos all over the place, though not lining some of them.  To be fair, locos such as 56xx and 45xx saw a fair bit of passenger work (but then, so did Black 5s), and the 4575, 14xx, 54xx and 64xx had some justification in being regarded as passenger locos anyway.

 

Back to the train set photo; there was also an earlier Rovex version of the 'Standard' track, with a different attachment method which I believe was 'handed' so you had to buy left and right hand curves separately.  A neighbour had some of this with a diamond crossing and a figure 8 layout.  His Black Princess and banana roof 6" coaches had a hook and loop style coupling, not the mk1 t/l; I vaguely remember the Rovex box.

Edited March 22, 2020 by The Johnster

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Hi.

 

The R.20 6 inch LMS coaches were used in the Tri-ang Railways "No.0" Train Set.

Later renumbered as R.0, with the Battery Box, and R.0X with the 12 volt input Speed Controller.

 

The later R.21 7 inch BR Coaches were used in the R.1, and R.1X sets.

 

Both R.0 and R.1 were available at the same time in the early 1950s.

 

The set illustrated is the R.1X.

 

The Lined Black R.50 Princess locos did have lining on the tenders, as well as the panel around the number on the cab sides. Both early and late crests were used on the tenders.

 

The original Rovex track only came in three types.

 

Curve. Straight, Power Straight.

 

It would only connect one way around, so could only make a circle, with no power input, or an oval, with power input.

 

The figure 8 layout must have been later, as Rovex didn't make a Diamond crossing until after the Tri-ang take over, and that had the "universal" connectors, not the Rovex non universal type.

[Robin Brasher]

Thank you for the information about the R0 train sets.  My set came out just after the Rovex set and it has got the instructions under the box lid. All you needed to get started were two Ever Ready 6 volt lamp batteries as the speed controller was included. The wires plugged into a power connecting rail and you could set the layout up on the dining room table like I have in the enclosed photographs.  It still works now but on our model railway club 4' x 4' layout using mainly Super 4 track.

 

The Rovex track in the Rovex set looks similar to the Tri-ang standard track illustrated here and was more realistic than Hornby Dublo's three rail track. 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Hi Robin.

 

The set you have, with the Battery Box controller would be the R.1.

 

Nice to see it out.

 

[Brocp]

Here she is in LNWR inspired lined black, lovely livery.

[Hroth]

I've got the R0 set with red coaches that are just beginning to display banana tendencies. Its got the big "lantern" battery box and the small "speed control unit".  The instructions are pasted inside the lid and the serial number is R0/300654.  Rovex Scale Models (a member of the Lines Bros. Group) is based at Petersham Road, Richmond, Surrey.

 

Everything still works well!

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Hroth
Spelin, wot else?

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Brocp said:

Here she is in LNWR inspired lined black, lovely livery.

That’s informative, Brocp, the photo is very probably the loco’s official works portrait, and the unicycling lion dates it to post 1/5/49, showing that the every is not a very early BR anomaly.  
 

She looks very smart and business-like in it!

 

 

 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

I've got the R0 set with red coaches that are just beginning to display banana tendencies. Its got the big "lantern" battery box and the small "speed control unit".  The instructions are pasted inside the lid and the serial number is R0/300654. Rovex Scale Models (a member of the Lines Bros. Group) is based at Petersham Road, Richmond, Surrey.

 

Everything still works well!

 

 

 

That reference shews that the R.0 set was packed on 30th June, 1954.

 

It would have come with the large battery box. The smaller speed controller would have originally been a separate purchase.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Sarahagain

[Brocp]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

That’s informative, Brocp, the photo is very probably the loco’s official works portrait, and the unicycling lion dates it to post 1/5/49, showing that the every is not a very early BR anomaly.  
 

She looks very smart and business-like in it!

 

It will be interesting to see how Hornby goes about this model and if they've tooled up the prototype pair's timeless boiler as well as the domed one as seen on their new 6201 model. The reason I say this is I have seen a picture of 46201 with domed boiler in this livery as well... it was also a picture just like this.

 

 

[Robin Brasher]

My R1X  Tri-ang Railways set has got detailed instructions about how to set up the speed control, maintenance instructions and hints on running on the back of the box lid. It was still manufactured by Rovex Plastics Limited, Petersham Road, Richmond, Surrey. I don't know if the original Rovex set, that the Hornby model will be based on, was supplied with a bottle of oil but this set was. I can remember the little glass Shell oil bottle with a lid that had a rod to dip into the oil bottle that was inside my 'Princess Elizabeth' box. My R1X set's number was R1X 110653 written in black ink so this dates it 11th June 1953. Hornby continued to use these reference numbers until recently so you can tell when a locomotive was made.

[truffy]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

I can remember the little glass Shell oil bottle with a lid that had a rod to dip into the oil bottle that was inside my 'Princess Elizabeth' box. 

Funnily enough, that's just reminded me that my Triang Hornby freightliner train set also came with a small bottle of oil and dipping rod. Those were the days of truly complete packages.

 

And a hand-written serial number to boot!

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

My R1X set's number was R1X 110653 written in black ink so this dates it 11th June 1953.

 

Mine is similar, just different handwriting.

I should imagine that a batch of sets was made each day and the member of staff with the best handwriting was given a sheaf of instruction sheets to endorse with set number/date each day prior to the sheets being glued in the box lid.  A good system as provided you kept everything in the box, the instructions would not be lost!

 

13 hours ago, Sarahagain said:

That reference shews that the R.0 set was packed on 30th June, 1954.

 

It would have come with the large battery box. The smaller speed controller would have originally been a separate purchase.

 

Thanks for the info, I wondered exactly how old the set was.

 

As Robins box lid shows, Triang "pushed" the small speed controller as an essential accessory!

 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

No problem.

 

The Speed Controller gives better control than the battery box, which has limited voltage positions.

 

As Robin says, the serial number is quite easy to decode, when you know how.

 

R number. Date packed. Day XX Month usually XX, year, XX.

 

50 020960

 

There is also a print code on all Tri-ang Railways, Tri-ang Hornby and Hornby Dublo instruction sheets.

 

Usually, with Tri-ang there is the R. Number of the item the sheet refers to, sometimes more than one...

 

Then a order number.

 

There are lists in Pat Hammond's The Story of Rovex books, which give time slots for order number ranges.

 

After a /, there is frequently a number.

 

This is the version number, or issue number, where the sheet has been reprinted.

 

R.50/23456/1

 

Hornby Dublo actually have the date in the print code, month and year, and the number printed in that issue.

 

I don't have the format memorised, but something like...

 

345 963 5M

 

I don't know or remember what the first numbers are, the date code is in the middle, then how many Thousand (M) printed...

 

I've put this together to use up a duplicate posting!

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Sarahagain
to use up a duplicate posting...

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The hand written numbers gave way to stamps. I don't know when, or if hand written numbers were just a stop gap measure when the stamps were unavailable.

 

The sheets pasted into the lid were to be replaced by the Information and Instruction Manuals, which were small books, of an imperial size not far off from metric Landscape A5.

 

Once Tri-ang Railways launched their Service Dealer Scheme, a list of the addresses of Service Dealers was also included, in every Locomotive, Train Set, or accessories with a motor, such as the Turntables.

This started off as a sheet, but soon also became a small book, the same size as the I & I manual.

 

These continued until after the formation of Tri-ang Hornby, when the manual was replaced by a sheet.

Later the Service Scheme book was also replaced by a sheet.

Later SS sheets were shared with Scalextric, which originally had similar books to Tri-ang Railways, as many Service Dealers serviced both ranges.

 

The oil bottle had its own recess in early Locomotive packing pieces, and in some train set trays.

 

I don't know when the oil bottle was dispensed with off hand, but I don't remember having seen any with Tri-ang Hornby labels.

Not that fact would mean that they stopped around 1965, as the stock of Tri-ang Railways labelled bottles would last for ages I reckon...

 

Tri-ang Shell Oil Bottles...various types over the years.

The bottom two are Frog (left) and Scalextric (right).

 

 

With red seal intact.

 

Frog (Flies Right Off the Ground) oil bottle sides. Tri-ang model aircraft, started with flying models, some with actual engines!

Such as the Frog MK 5...

 

Tri-ang Railways bottle side.

 

Scalextric also had a Shell Oil bottle.

Scalextric bottle sides.

 

See also...

 

http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/OONew/shelloil.htm

 

Minic Motorways also came with oil, and similar instructions.

 

Hornby Dublo Sets and Locomotives also came with oil, at one time in a glass phial, and later,  I think, in a white tube with a red lid and MECCANO LTD. on one side, and LUBRICATING OIL on the other side in blue letters.

 

 

 

 

The spanner fits the body securing bolts on some of the Locomotives.

 

 

The Airfix slot car system also had oil bottles.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Ruffnut Thorston
Link redone