Pubs re-opening

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 minute ago, APOLLO said:

And one of the things I fear is as we get "back to normal" (whatever that is), pubs reopening etc is a second wave kicking off ...

The best we can hope for is that the second wave has a broad peak lasting much longer but going no higher than the first wave, by continuing to have significant control measures in place, until an effective vaccine is available. Look at Germany, which is the model in Europe for handling the first wave. Started relaxation from lockdown, 40 cases from one social gathering, a church service. That's in the European country with the best measures in place ...

 

6 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The rates you recommend would cause massive deflation to add to all the rest of our woes...

I know that (should have put a winky' after?). But tax pain is coming, and there's a major debate to be had about it. I can see justification for varying the tax rates among the population by essential/inessential.

[jjb1970]

We are heading for tax rises and spending cuts, that much has been obvious from the beginning of the lockdown as something has to try and repair the monumental hole in government finances and to pay the money that is being used for the furlough scheme etc. 

[Nearholmer]

It also strikes me that an “essential” vs “non-essential” distinction in the taxation system would create so many anomalies that it would instantly fall into disrepute.

 

A £75k/year national grid control shift supply engineer - deemed essential to keep the lights on.

 

An £18k/year childcare worker a - deemed  non-essential by virtue of nurseries closing for the duration.

 

Would you want to be the one saying that the first shouldn’t have their tax increased to pay off debt, while the second should?

[tomparryharry]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Good news; my Sunday regular is a Greene King.  

 

A way forward might be to adopt American/Canadian style bar rules, in which it is forbidden to walk or stand with an alcoholic drink in your hand.  You can sit on a barstool at the bar and be served by the barkeep, or sit at a table and be served by staff, but you can't go to the bar and buy a drink, then stand at the bar with it, walk off somewhere else with it, or take it to your table.  

 

In the shorter term, plastic screen individual 'booths' at the bar, and a stricter interpretation of how many are allowed in; practice at some city centre bars where I live is frankly dangerous.  Maybe a ban or restriction on made-on-the-spot cocktails,  which take ages and lead to bar crowding.

 

I have a mental image of an American bar, where the lady slides the pint down the length of the bar. "Yee-Hah! The peanuts get soggy, though.....

[Nearholmer]

Mo’s Place in The Simpson’s: even more soul-destroying than the worst of British pubs, which is saying something.

[rockershovel]

17 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Mo’s Place in The Simpson’s: even more soul-destroying than the worst of British pubs, which is saying something.

 

That’s something I learnt long ago; bad American bars are REALLY bad. I must confess that I’ve never had a drink slid along the bar to me; do they really do that? 

 

I wasn't aware about the bar rules, either; I just thought it was a case of “when in Rome”..

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by rockershovel

[Mark Dickerson]

14 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

I have a mental image of an American bar, where the lady slides the pint down the length of the bar. "Yee-Hah! The peanuts get soggy, though.....

Whereas I looked at the second paragraph and thought of all those lovely Victorian pubs with their snob screens, partitioned bars and booths, and separate entrances, that got knocked through to have the MASSIVE SCREENS put in if they weren't closed entirely. But I don't think there's much money in putting back the Embittered Misanthropes Out for a Quiet Pint rooms (i.e. snug bars) longer term. Even for me.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

...Would you want to be the one saying that the first shouldn’t have their tax increased to pay off debt, while the second should?

Why do you think I never went anywhere near elected office? 

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

We are heading for tax rises and spending cuts, that much has been obvious from the beginning of the lockdown as something has to try and repair the monumental hole in government finances and to pay the money that is being used for the furlough scheme etc. 

That's how it's being reported  by the journalists. They have been brought up with the economic orthodoxies of monetarism.

 

I believe that current economic circumstances internationally may mean that these beliefs are false - so long as all major countries are in much the same situation. In that case, you can solve the problem by "printing money" rather than by borrowing. Normally that would cause inflation but CoViD has suppressed demand to a point where inflation is not an issue.

 

 

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The best we can hope for is that the second wave has a broad peak lasting much longer but going no higher than the first wave, by continuing to have significant control measures in place, until an effective vaccine is available. Look at Germany, which is the model in Europe for handling the first wave. Started relaxation from lockdown, 40 cases from one social gathering, a church service. That's in the European country with the best measures in place ...

 

I know that (should have put a winky' after?). But tax pain is coming, and there's a major debate to be had about it. I can see justification for varying the tax rates among the population by essential/inessential.

Forty cases from a church gathering just this week Mr T announced that he wanted the churches full again in the US.

 

The tax pain is coming, not sure how they will make further cuts into local services when it was cut to the bone after the last recession.  Some of those cuts are coming home to roost now in terms of testing, tracking and tracing with Covid.  Lets hope the noises coming out of Government about the end of austerity before Covid are carried forward and that repaying the cost of Covid is treated like the war it has been and set to a very long repayment.

 

I doubt you can vary personal taxation by your chosen profession, that would be very difficult to implement and where would you draw the line.  I would expect perhaps that it would be VAT that would be the instrument to apply additional tax to luxury items but you have to be careful as you need people to be spending to raise tax from businesses and to keep people employed.

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

...I doubt you can vary personal taxation by your chosen profession, that would be very difficult to implement and where would you draw the line...

Is there that much difference in principle between the existing practise with student loans, and a repayment scheme for the furloughed? It's not by profession at all, it's by whether you had the benefit or not; and by a carefully graduated scheme, nil for those on minimum wage, loads for those coining it...

[Jonboy]

Difference between the two is the student loan is by choice....

[jjb1970]

The furlough scheme is capped at £2500 per month that equates to a decent income but it's far from being classed as high income. 

Edited May 24, 2020 by jjb1970

[JohnDMJ]

 

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Look at Germany, which is the model in Europe for handling the first wave. Started relaxation from lockdown, 40 cases from one social gathering, a church service. That's in the European country with the best measures in place ...

 

15 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Forty cases from a church gathering just this week Mr T announced that he wanted the churches full again in the US.

 

Is religion all it's cracked up to be?

[jjb1970]

3 minutes ago, Jonboy said:

Difference between the two is the student loan is by choice....

 

I am not sure how true that really is. Nowadays it is pretty much a de-facto requirement for young people to have some sort of higher education to stand a chance of getting a job in many sectors of the economy. And few can afford their own fees, so if the bank of mum and dad can't pay then it is a student loan. So yes, you don't have to go to college or university but if you don't then you are narrowing your future opportunities quite massively. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

47 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Forty cases from a church gathering just this week Mr T announced that he wanted the churches full again in the US.

 

 

 

I recall that at the time that the US went into lockdown, a lady proclaimed on television that churches should be allowed to remain open as the virus would not be transmitted between people while they were worshipping.

No average US person in denial. She was a medic!

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, Rivercider said:

I like going to pubs, of all kinds including those I would not take Mrs Rivercider to.

My experience of Wetherspoons near me is that most are pretty congested inside, and most have very little outside space.

I enjoy visiting a pub on impulse, the idea of having to book a slot/table, or ordering drinks via an app is something that would put me off going. There are a number of pubs near here with large outside areas and beer gardens and I guess they might be more able to come to some workable arrangement,

 

cheers 

 

Most ‘Spoons I know are converted from older business premises in town centre locations. Both the Peterborough ones were large shops. I know a couple that were previously pubs but not many 

[rockershovel]

30 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I am not sure how true that really is. Nowadays it is pretty much a de-facto requirement for young people to have some sort of higher education to stand a chance of getting a job in many sectors of the economy. And few can afford their own fees, so if the bank of mum and dad can't pay then it is a student loan. So yes, you don't have to go to college or university but if you don't then you are narrowing your future opportunities quite massively. 

 

One of my nieces told me a while ago that she sees no value in working above the £21,000 threshold, simply leaving her Student Loan to expire in 25 years’ time. This is a sort-of self-fulfilling prophecy; my children inform me that if you DON’T start paying off sooner rather than later, and start in later life, the accumulated interest is a major issue. 

 

 

[GeoffAlan]

Apparently all the Durham pubs are reopening, not for the locals, but so government advisers can get a drink before going back to London.

[roundhouse]

3 hours ago, Rivercider said:

I like going to pubs, of all kinds including those I would not take Mrs Rivercider to.

My experience of Wetherspoons near me is that most are pretty congested inside, and most have very little outside space.

I enjoy visiting a pub on impulse, the idea of having to book a slot/table, or ordering drinks via an app is something that would put me off going. There are a number of pubs near here with large outside areas and beer gardens and I guess they might be more able to come to some workable arrangement,

The Spoons near Exeter St Davids, The Imperial is one exception that has a huge indoor area but an even bigger garden. It can get very busy but must be one of the easiest to be able to set up for social distancing and a good one to have a word with Mr Martins and his views as its local to him and is a regular visitor but I have yet to see him there. Its our first choice for breakfast when in Exeter. The orangery would make a fantastic layout room.

 

The issue with Spoons app when we have tried to use it, you can't order the more interesting ales.

[jjb1970]

14 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

One of my nieces told me a while ago that she sees no value in working above the £21,000 threshold, simply leaving her Student Loan to expire in 25 years’ time. This is a sort-of self-fulfilling prophecy; my children inform me that if you DON’T start paying off sooner rather than later, and start in later life, the accumulated interest is a major issue. 

 

 

 

That's really quite sad, 21k is hardly a stellar income and to limit herself to that level just to avoid repaying her student loans seems a bit crazy. However it's her choice to make. Education has always been a bit of a gamble in investing time, effort and money and losing up front in the hope of ending up ahead on the deal later. At one time a university education was a huge head start in life, but when everyone has a degree it seems even temporary admin jobs are asking for degree qualified applicants and I'm always amazed at just how highly educated many people in jobs that would once have been filled by people who left school with O or A levels are.

[woodenhead]

21 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I recall that at the time that the US went into lockdown, a lady proclaimed on television that churches should be allowed to remain open as the virus would not be transmitted between people while they were worshipping.

No average US person in denial. She was a medic!

Thoughts and prayers!

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

I have a mental image of an American bar, where the lady slides the pint down the length of the bar. "Yee-Hah! The peanuts get soggy, though.....

Yer not from around here, are you, pilgrim. Now, get on yuh milk shake and drink yuh horse... 

 

Bar in the wild west, young lad takes on job as barkeep.  It's a bit rough, and his first day, but things are ok so far; he serves drinks to cowboys, the piano player is playing, the are doing trade up stairs, when a guy comes in and shouts 'quick, everyone, Big Jake's a'comin' ter town'!  The cowboys scatter, the piano player hides behind the piano, the lock themselves in their rooms, even the card players run for it.  Our hero, understandably nervous, calls over to the piano player and asks what he should do.

 

Piano player replies 'well, son, when Big Jake comes ter town, Big Jake likes ter drink, so you just keep him drinking till he passes out, about 3 days, and the shurf'll come and lock him up'.  Little while later, the meanest, biggest, orneryest looking mountain man you ever saw rides up the main street, riding a grizzly bear and whipping it with a live rattlesnake, armed to the teeth.  He gets off the bear, bites the head off the snake and then spits it out, knocks the bear unconscious with a single punch to the nose, enters the bar tearing the doors off their hinges, and walks up to the bar; 'whiskey, barkeep'.  

 

The kid hands him a bottle of the good stuff, on the house, and watches as he drains it in about 10 seconds.  'Another, sir', he asks, trembling in fear.  'Nope, I've got ter be a'moseying along.  Big Jake's a'comin' ter town'...

 

Yee (as you so rightly say) Hah!

 

I had to go home and talk to the missus, because my barmaid didn't understand me...

Edited May 24, 2020 by The Johnster

[JohnDMJ]

2 minutes ago, roundhouse said:

The Spoons near Exeter St Davids, The Imperial is one exception that has a huge indoor area but an even bigger garden. It can get very busy but must be one of the easiest to be able to set up for social distancing and a good one to have a word with Mr Martins and his views as its local to him and is a regular visitor but I have yet to see him there. Its our first choice for breakfast when in Exeter. The orangery would make a fantastic layout room.

 

The issue with Spoons app when we have tried to use it, you can't order the more interesting ales.

 

And if you order a short (Southern Comfort, let's say), it will be served with ice (what they refer to as the "perfect" way [this is a quote of a former member of management at my local spoons!]) I just want my double SC without ice or any other dilutants.

 

It is beyond the wit of the spoons app to be able to order by pump number and even to request a jug rather than a slippery tube!

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

That's how it's being reported  by the journalists. They have been brought up with the economic orthodoxies of monetarism.

 

I believe that current economic circumstances internationally may mean that these beliefs are false - so long as all major countries are in much the same situation. In that case, you can solve the problem by "printing money" rather than by borrowing. Normally that would cause inflation but CoViD has suppressed demand to a point where inflation is not an issue.

 

 

Interesting idea.  Since a moment's disengagement from the system will make it blindingly apparent that both socialism and capitalism have failed to develop the desired system, an efficient method of creating wealth with minimum wastage and of then fairly and equably distributing it to everyone's satisfaction so that none are destitute, it may be that a New Economic World Order will emerge from the wreckage, to the benefit of all.  We live in hope (and die in despair), but don't hold your breath!