Swiss Signalling and Interlocking Principles

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

Having watched several Swiss narrow gauge cab rides, I’m seriously considering a home Swiss narrow gauge layout.

 

However, with my obsession with signalling, I’d would like to understand the signalling and interlocking principles behind Swiss railways before going further.

So, what information on this is it there on the subject?

 

Simon

[melmerby]

You could start here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_railway_signalling

 

and here:

http://www.styria-mobile.at/home/Austro-SwissRailwaySignalling/asr/ensigchbegriff.html

 

also brush up on your German:

http://www.bahnstatistik.de/Signale_pdf/SB-SBB_FDV.pdf

[JimFin]

Some options here for you have a look at in the CH section

 

https://thesignalpage.nl/en/data.php

[PaulRhB]

It depends which narrow gauge railway and what period as speed signalling is getting quite common. 
http://xover.mud.at/~invisible/mirror/sig/asr/ensigchsysl.html
 

and more in German

 

 

[DaveF]

 

I know you asked abourt Swiss narrow gauge railways but you might find this book of interest:

 

Signalbuch der Schweizerischen Bundesbahnen,   published by SBB themselves in 1982.

 

No ISBN.  Copyright is given as  1982 Generalsekretariat SBB, Bern

 

It starts with a brief history (14 pages) and then has 96 pages on "Schweizerische Eisenbahnen  -   Reglement über die Signale.  R312.1"

 

This is followed by a series of fold out diagrams of specific signalling applications.

 

Sadly I have no idea where you  might find a copy.   I have just noticed a copy on ABeBooks, from a seller in the USA but not exactly cheap.

 

 I think I bought mine from an SBB sales coach at an event in Interlaken in 1988.

 

David

[MOB FAN]

I recall an issue of Continental Modeler that had an article on RhB signals.

Would anyone know which issue(s) it was?

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

Thanks for those links, I'll have a deeper look in due course. I'm looking at the last 10 years or so really and the RhB sort of area.

 

Does anyone know how far ETCS has got onto the Narrow Gauge Network, if at all?

 

Simon 

 

[JimFin]

There is a lot of current material here - https://www.smartrail40.ch/index.asp?inc=en/program.asp and many technical documents to download that may be of interest given your speciality, hope this helps - nice folk have done German / English

201910_SD_Artikel_zu_APS.pdf

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, St. Simon said:

 

Does anyone know how far ETCS has got onto the Narrow Gauge Network, if at all?

 

As Jim’s link shows nothing active you’re looking at least ten years in the future really. The RhB has been moving over to speed signalling but at smaller stations there’s not really much evidence due to the amount of single line sections apart from every track now has a signal rather than just one signal and the aspect telling you which track has authority to depart. 
It’s main visual impact has been between Davos and Thusis via Chur. 
There is an ongoing project to extend station loops to make dynamic loops. 

Fabio’s cab rides are bang up to date and contain info on signals, well worth watching as he’s a driver.

 

[melmerby]

Watching some recent Gotthard route cab rides I find it a bit spooky that many of the original signals are still in place but just switched off after conversion to cab signalling.

[PaulRhB]

48 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Watching some recent Gotthard route cab rides I find it a bit spooky that many of the original signals are still in place but just switched off after conversion to cab signalling.

They may be retained for emergency block signalling in case of a major malfunction of the cab system, that’s been done elsewhere when cab signalling was new. There are probably only a few retained compared to the original blocks but while still serviceable they allow trains to run in an emergency similar to Simbids over here. 
Alternatively the recovery project may just be slow due to traffic levels  

Edited June 25, 2020 by PaulRhB

[St. Simon]

20 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

As Jim’s link shows nothing active you’re looking at least ten years in the future really. The RhB has been moving over to speed signalling but at smaller stations there’s not really much evidence due to the amount of single line sections apart from every track now has a signal rather than just one signal and the aspect telling you which track has authority to depart. 
It’s main visual impact has been between Davos and Thusis via Chur. 
There is an ongoing project to extend station loops to make dynamic loops. 

Fabio’s cab rides are bang up to date and contain info on signals, well worth watching as he’s a driver.

 

 

Hi,

 

Yes, I thought that ETCS hadn't got that far, but there is a lot of Eurobalises installed in the four foot (or at least something very similar)!

 

Those are the videos I have been watching, and I'm slowly getting my head around it, but there seems to be very little published about any thing to do with Swiss signalling other than the links provided.

 

Simon

[swisspeat]

The Swiss magazine Loki produced a Swiss signalling special a few years ago.

 

www.loki.ch.

 

 

[chb2488]

The Eurobalises on the RhB are not linked to any L2, but may be part of the ZSI127–System. Off the top of my head I can‘t think of a Swiss narrow gauge line that will be converted to ETCS L2.
 

As far as I‘m aware the remaining (if so) light signals on the Gotthard route are not used for emergency service, but I haven‘t visited that line yet. PaulRhb is right that, towards the end, the colour signals on the NBS had to be heeded if they unexpectedly showed red. For technical/administrative reasons they could not be removed for quite some time after becoming obsolete.

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

I discovered that the IRSE has got a European Railway Signalling text book which covers signalling and interlocking principles. It has only just come through my door, but looks pretty comprehensive, even though it might be slightly out of date to todays standards (in was first published in 1995).

 

Whilst quite expensive (£65.00), it should be worth it, I'll report back when I've had a proper look at it.

 

Simon

[St. Simon]

On 01/07/2020 at 13:10, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

I discovered that the IRSE has got a European Railway Signalling text book which covers signalling and interlocking principles. It has only just come through my door, but looks pretty comprehensive, even though it might be slightly out of date to todays standards (in was first published in 1995).

 

Whilst quite expensive (£65.00), it should be worth it, I'll report back when I've had a proper look at it.

 

Simon

Hi,

 

Right, I’ve had a read through, Swiss (SBB) signalling and interlocking principles are covered, although not as much as the German (which, as an aside, is very complex!), Italian, French, Norwegian, Swedish, Flemish and British principles covered, but it is enough to get the basics. 
 

It does give some quite detailed explanations and diagrams of traffic management in Switzerland. 
 

Sadly it doesn’t give any signalling position principles above basic braking distances and overlaps, but I think you can work it together with the other links in this thread.

 

However, still very much worth a read!

Having read it though, I do have a few questions for anyone in the know:

 

1) I’m not sure how a ‘Green over Yellow Aspect’ on a home signal, which allows entry into an occupied line at no more than 40km/h, is different to a calling on aspect, although this might be the difference between the ‘L’ and ‘N’ type systems?
 

2) The book shows a diagram that presents a horizontal and diagonal set of miniature yellow lights below the main signal head on the ‘L’ type system, however it doesn’t explain when and how these are used, anyone know?

 

3) When talking about route setting, the text describes that ‘sub routes’ must be set before the main route can be set. I assume that this means that if there’s is a shunt route in the line of the main route, that must be set first before setting the main route?

 

4) I assume that in areas that have dual gauge track, there are additional interlocking controls to preventing a standard gauge train being routed one to a narrow gauge only line and vice versa?

 

Hopefully someone might know the answers, but I suspect that they might not!

 

If anyone has any images of Swiss control panels, it might help to try and work out how they work (the text book does describe the basic operation) in detail. It would also help with someone trying to recreate one! 

 

 Simon

[PaulRhB]

There are a lot of unique stencil type heads on the private systems too and we still haven’t worked out what all of those on the Arosa do. There were, (are possibly as many have been shut or lengthened), also brake signals on some short loops where it tells you when you can release brakes to prevent a roll back fouling behind you. I worked out quite a lot from cab rides so be wary of just plonking Standard Gauge signalling on a NG line  

If you choose the RhB I’d study the YouTube cab rides and use google RhBview and identify the signals to work back from there.  
 

[chb2488]

To answer some of St. Simon's question, the box from 2) will show a line of horizontal lights together with Fb2 ("green and yellow") to signal an entry into an occupied track. If there's an advance signal on the same spot it won't show any aspect so as not to draw away attention from the occupied signal.

 

The same type of box can display a diagonal line of lights called an auxiliary signal which will allow entry on sight in the case of a signal failure. (Some private company lines even have these under their exit signals)

 

In System N, the occupied entry is also given with a resting horizontal beam, slowly blinking if signalling a "short entry" (System L: Fb6 – two vertically aligned orange lights ).

 

Regarding 3), until ETCS, most signalboxes set a shunting route, once that is successfully set, a (main) route for the train movement is established on top of that. You can spot this by the shunting signals that will open before the main signal follows.

 

I may be missing the pun in PaulRhb's comment about the roll back behind you... The four-aspect brake signals tell you when to draw or release the brakes when testing those with the aid of shunting personnel or a ticket controller. The same type of box with one white and one green light shows that the train is "commercially ready", i.e. no more passengers mounting or dismounting, no more loading or unloading of freight.

 

(Please tell me if I am getting overbearing, I spend an unhealthy amount of time on Swiss standard gauge trains, their cab mostly.)

[PaulRhB]

20 minutes ago, chb2488 said:

I may be missing the pun in PaulRhB's comment about the roll back behind you... The four-aspect brake signals tell you when to draw or release the brakes when testing those with the aid of shunting personnel or a ticket controller.

It’s a brake rather than brake test signal, as I said above you need to beware the unique options on private railways

As below it tells you when you’re clear and can stop plus it remains illuminated to remind the driver not to release brakes that may cause a rollback foul of the switch. 

Details of how it operates here. 

http://www.styria-mobile.at/home/Austro-SwissRailwaySignalling/asr/ensigchxsolis.html

 

[chb2488]

You learn something every day... once you think you‘ve seen everything the FDV can throw at you, you may start again on the RhB!

[St. Simon]

On 04/07/2020 at 14:49, chb2488 said:

To answer some of St. Simon's question, the box from 2) will show a line of horizontal lights together with Fb2 ("green and yellow") to signal an entry into an occupied track. If there's an advance signal on the same spot it won't show any aspect so as not to draw away attention from the occupied signal.

 

The same type of box can display a diagonal line of lights called an auxiliary signal which will allow entry on sight in the case of a signal failure. (Some private company lines even have these under their exit signals)

 

In System N, the occupied entry is also given with a resting horizontal beam, slowly blinking if signalling a "short entry" (System L: Fb6 – two vertically aligned orange lights ).

 

Regarding 3), until ETCS, most signalboxes set a shunting route, once that is successfully set, a (main) route for the train movement is established on top of that. You can spot this by the shunting signals that will open before the main signal follows.

 

I may be missing the pun in PaulRhb's comment about the roll back behind you... The four-aspect brake signals tell you when to draw or release the brakes when testing those with the aid of shunting personnel or a ticket controller. The same type of box with one white and one green light shows that the train is "commercially ready", i.e. no more passengers mounting or dismounting, no more loading or unloading of freight.

 

(Please tell me if I am getting overbearing, I spend an unhealthy amount of time on Swiss standard gauge trains, their cab mostly.)

Hi,

 

That is most helpful, confirms what I thought, thanks!

 

Simon

[MrTea]

I'm about to start wiring up the signals on my layout and I stumbled across this document whilst researching the signs attached to signal posts on the RhB:
http://www.thomsoninteractive.com/downloads/Albula_Line_Manual_EN.pdf

 

It's the manual for the Albula line route in Train Sim 2016 but it contains a really good section that explains the signalling from a driver's point of view:

The part to look out for is Section 4, p10-14.

 

Section 5 covers signs you might see on the route, which I also think might be useful.

 

Ian

[DGO]

Possible stupid question, but would anyone know if there is a standard width for the backing boards of L type single column signals ? e.g 

 

 

I've been looking online and can find lots of info regarding what lights show when but nothing on actual physical dimensions