LNWR Dock Tank - Upgrading the M&L kit in EM gauge

[Barclay]

This LNWR 'Bissel' tank was my 2nd EM gauge loco, back in the mid '90's. I was pleased with the way it looked but it was never a great runner. Here it is on probably it's last run about 12 years ago:

 

 

 

 

I think there were a number of issues with this loco as built:

 

• I used the fold up 00 chassis, and just spaced the wheels out with washers.
• A DS10 and Romford 40:1 gears do not make a great shunting engine.
• No suspension, with the trailing axle left to its own devices.
• The coupling rods were very delicate and making the holes big enough to take the Gibson bushes left them rather frail. I've learned to not bother with the bushes since.
• All the tyres fell off!

The loco has therefore been taken apart with the intention of re-constructing it the way I would build a loco today:

 

 

 

Starting with the frames, they have been cut down the middle and new spacers will be soldered in. The Gibson wheels have had the tyres superglued back on which I hope will do the job. The DS10 has been replaced with a Mitsumi motor that runs at much lower revs. I plan to keep the original Romford gears and the motor mount - shame to waste them.

 

 

Finally - suspension. 0-4-2's are quite tricky, much harder than an 0-6-0. The plan is to have twin compensation beams between the front 2 axles, using these slim High Level horn blocks, then have the trailing axle on a single beam. To reduce friction I have fitted up an old Gibson horn block bearing on some brass tube.

 

 

 

Hopefully that will all function OK but suggestions are more than welcome!

Edited May 24, 2023 by Barclay

[Beechnut]

Hi Stuart, agree with you about the difficulties with 0-4-2 wheel arrangement. My Bissel has twin beams which was not altogether successful, probably due to the torque on the driven axle. It is acceptable so won’t be getting altered.

I shall follow your rebuild with great interest.

 

Brendan

Forgot to say, it is EM.

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Beechnut

[Poor Old Bruce]

I would suggest that your arrangement for the trailing axle is somewhat overkill if you are try to reduce friction. No matter how well engineered it is, you've got interfaces between the axle and  the bearing plus between the tube and bar. The height difference between the centre lines also imparts an angular movement to the wheels, centred about the rod, rather than just vertical movement. Plus you need to align the bearing with whatever you use in the loco frames. On one loco I built (although I must confess I've not built many) I put a frame spacer above the axle I wanted to rock, a hole in the spacer with a nut soldered to it and a screw through the nut bearing on the axle so that the height could be adjusted as necessary. That was an 0-4-0ST so a bit of judicious filing of the bearing bushes in the frames gave enough movement. Unless your locos run excessive mileage, the wear factor shouldn't be a problem.

[Barclay]

I think I was worried that a beam just bearing directly onto the trailing axle might cause enough friction to stop it revolving, especially because you would also require 2 horn blocks to locate the axle. This set up will involve just this centre bearing, with brass tube spacers on the axle either side, and no actual connection with the frames, so from a friction point of view I think it's as low as it can be but it's an interesting point about the centre of rotation of the pivot being a fair bit higher than the axle. Will this impair free movement? Time will tell...

[Poor Old Bruce]

There's still the same load on the axle no matter how it is supported, be it in a tube or at a point contact. I would personally think that a larger (tube?) bearing may collect more detritus than a single point.

 

With the weight on the axle being taken by the support at the centre of the axle, I have, for a long time, wondered why axleboxes and hornblocks in the frames are even necessary when a slot in the frame will guide the vertical movement of the axle just as well. With axleboxes and hornblocks there's more rubbing surfaces to create friction. Hornby Dublo wagons went for years with the axles resting on the edges of bits of tinplate, those wheels didn't stop turning.

 

One option to get the centre lines of your system closer would be to ditch the axlebox bearing and just solder two pieces of tube at right angles to each other

[t-b-g]

One think I can confirm, if you build this as intended in the kit, the weight distribution is dreadful and ours, also in EM, does a great nod on the light etched brass springs provided for the rear axle when you change direction. Ours has a DS10 and a Romford gear, having been built in a previous era when such things were "state of the art". I even replaced the cab roof with a thin brass one to cut down the weight at the back but it has never been happy.

 

I await the results of the rebuild with great interest and it may just encourage me to try something with ours.

 

I would be quite happy with the rear axle running in 2mm vertical slots in the frames, with a round rod on top of the axle for the central pivot.

 

I don't find there is any need for bearings all round the axle as the weight is taken by the beam and wear at the vertical slots is virtually nil. They are only keeping the axle parallel, not carrying any weight. Any bearing fixed in a vertical plane under the axle is not doing anything other than giving somewhere for muck to collect and possibly make it harder for the axle to tilt.

 

As always, if you ask 10 modellers how t do a job, you will get 11 answers and most of them will work! It comes down, very much, to personal choice and almost what "feels" the right way to go for the individual..

[Barclay]

15 hours ago, JimRead said:

Hello Barclay,

 

I'd not heard of Mitsumi motors before and found these 8.03 Euros for a package of 10: https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32393718410.html I hadn't signed in to the site so the link is to the French one. May I ask if you've taken one apart to see what sort of armature and if you did is it a 5 pole skewed one.

 

I ask because I make my own pulsed/feedback controllers and they need 5 pole's to work smoothly.

 

Cheers - Jim

Hi Jim - I've not taken one apart but cctransuk whose Cambridge Custom Transfers sells them here, has done so. They appear to be just cheap basic 3 pole motors but they do run very nicely, I have at least 3 loco's with them in and I've nothing but praise for them, they are slow revving and smooth. I wouldn't necessarily expect them to be as powerful as an equivalent Mashima because they probably don't use fancy magnets but I've recently had one pulling 20 wagons in a white metal loco, and I've run another on a rolling road continuously for several hours because I was concerned it ran quite hot. Well it did run hot but it kept going with no ill effects. They don't usually come with mounting screws and the holes are in a funny place anyway, but it's easy to secure them to a gearbox with a dab of solder (low melt!).

 

 

 

[Barclay]

The Mitsumi is 12mm wide so fits easily between the frames in EM.

 

The one you have there looks like a couple I bought from China but haven't used yet, so I'd be interested in how they work out. I think they will need a fairly high gear ratio though. Possibly better than the old DS10 as they are skew wound. (I became slightly obsessed with motors last year and now have a selection box of different sorts to try!)

 

Building your own hi-fi? That sounds fun - I have a Naim Nait 3 that I was just about to send away for a service and re-cap when Covid hit us. 

[Quarryscapes]

Make sure you get Genuine Mitsumi motors, there are some fakes out there that are utter rubbish (and you won't know which you are getting from Chinese sellers as they all use the exact same photos in their listings regardless of what they are selling) I sell the Mitsumi in 3 options on my website. 

[5050]

My 0-4-2 GWR 14xx (K's kit basis body, my chassis!)) chassis that I built approx. 45 years ago still runs with a DS10/Romford gear drive on the front fixed axle and a central beam between the rear drivers and the trailing wheels.  I can't see any wear and the weight distribution with the rear wheels being supported on the beam pivot (central between the pairs of wheels) is OK.  When I first built it it was in OO and quite avant garde. Very soon, using the same chassis, it was converted to P4 using Sharman wheels and washers and has performed on several layouts over the years.

 

I've kept the DS10/Romford gearing as it runs very smoothly and as a 'mainline' loco rather than a 'shunter' its speed is quite acceptable.

Edited July 17, 2020 by 5050

[Penlan]

I have a rocking front axle, the driven one is fixed with a Portscap motor and gearbox* and the rear pony truck is lightly sprung both vertical and horizontally.  The original chassis was widened for EM.
It's always been a good runner.  I bought and assembled it when it first came out, so it must 35 years or more old.
* The Portscap was given to me by a friend, who didn't like it. 
It's the noisiest motor on my layout? 
The rest of my fleet is DS10's or various size can motors through a wide range of gearboxes.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Penlan

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, JimRead said:

You will notice that in the link I provided above is the price of 8 Euros for 10 off motors exactly the quantity the transfer gent bought, the seller is a trader.

 

I am said "transfer gent", and I can confirm that I do NOT purchase my Mitsumi motors from the source that was linked.

 

My motors come complete with fixing screws, and a diagram showing how to drill fixing holes in a gearbox in order to fit the motor.

 

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

9 minutes ago, JimRead said:

Hello John,

 

Many thanks for your rebuttal, though, and I hope you don't mind me saying this you could have done it a bit better. I worked for a precision work holding manufacturer and occasionally had to turn something to our disadvantage into something positive.

 

In your place I would have said this, "I buy the motors at a very reasonable price, I do this as service for fellow my modellers, I like to provide the best that I can find in the market place and I don't actually take very much profit".

Followed by your other words

 

Words like this are not defensive and express a positive, encouraging and friendly riposte.

 

Cheers - Jim

 

Jim,

 

All that potential customers need to know about my offer of Mitsumi motors is on my website - at some length.

 

What is not helpful is someone making unfounded and uninformed guesses about how I source them.

 

I am not being defensive - just correcting misinformation or, (as a certain eminent(?) North American might say), Fake News!

 

John Isherwood.

 

PS. As you may have guessed - being a Lancastrian, I don't do flannel - I call a spade a shovel!

Edited July 17, 2020 by cctransuk

[hayfield]

15 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I am said "transfer gent", and I can confirm that I do NOT purchase my Mitsumi motors from the source that was linked.

 

My motors come complete with fixing screws, and a diagram showing how to drill fixing holes in a gearbox in order to fit the motor.

 

John Isherwood.

 

John

 

I have found buying motors from China an absolute mine field, those I have sourced myself have been in the main, truly unsuitable. Where I have bought from a dealer whilst looking either the same or similar, the performance is worlds apart. Not tried one of yours yet as I am leaning towards coreless motors, but buying from a reputable UK source who has done all the legwork and testing has proved to me to be the only way

 

I think your price is very competitive, given you have to guarantee the items, source, pack and post net margins must be slim. Do keep up the good work

[cctransuk]

56 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

John

 

I have found buying motors from China an absolute mine field, those I have sourced myself have been in the main, truly unsuitable. Where I have bought from a dealer whilst looking either the same or similar, the performance is worlds apart. Not tried one of yours yet as I am leaning towards coreless motors, but buying from a reputable UK source who has done all the legwork and testing has proved to me to be the only way

 

I think your price is very competitive, given you have to guarantee the items, source, pack and post net margins must be slim. Do keep up the good work

 

You are very kind - much appreciated.

 

It's a question of identifying a reliable source and sticking with them, and I try to strike a balance that is value for money.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm

[cctransuk]

11 hours ago, JimRead said:

..... flywheels have no effect whatsoever at low speeds they do not have enough inertia to continue turning a motor. Quoted from IKBrunel RMW member and fine engineer.

 

Despite the undoubtedly respected author, I beg to differ!

 

Having operated the trial 0-6-0 chassis referred to on my website, both with and without the flywheel, I can state categorically that it ran perceptibly better with the flywheel.

 

I use a straight DC voltage regulator, sourced from China, as a controller; if this is of consequence.

 

I trust my own observations rather than rely on heresay.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[hayfield]

20 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

You are very kind - much appreciated.

 

It's a question of identifying a reliable source and sticking with them, and I try to strike a balance that is value for money.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm

John

 

What many ow buy these motors fail to realize is these motors at best are the remnants left over from a production run, at worst seconds. Many purporting to be something they are not being sold by wholesaler's and the postage is being subsidized by the Chinese government. I can buy a motor and get it posted from the other side of the world for less than I can post the same motor to the next town. I am happy to buy screws etc with a Chinese subsidy where they loose money, my own little protest against the way they do business !!!

 

As I said buy from a trusted source  

[hayfield]

25 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Despite the undoubtedly respected author, I beg to differ!

 

Having operated the trial 0-6-0 chassis referred to on my website, both with and without the flywheel, I can state categorically that it ran perceptibly better with the flywheel.

 

I use a straight DC voltage regulator, sourced from China, as a controller; if this is of consequence.

 

I trust my own observations rather than rely on heresay.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

I have a Mainline 57xx I bought ready built, it has a Comet chassis, Mashima motor and a flywheel fitted

 

I have to agree at very low speeds its effect is minimal, as you would expect as inertia needs to be built up before it can be used

 

At normal operating speeds as you clearly say it both works and improves the performance, so it is also correct to say it works

 

If flywheels do not work, why at the high end RTR models have them fitted ??. 

 

I assume for optimum results the flywheel must be matched to the motor ? 

[Penlan]

52 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

I use a straight DC voltage regulator, sourced from China, as a controller; if this is of consequence.

Uhmn, I hadn't thought of using one of those (Silly me  ).
I have a few spare from a bunch I received for getting the right voltages for LEDS, etc., 
I feel a 'trial controller' coming on.
If it works for me, many thanks John.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Penlan

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, Penlan said:

Uhmn, I hadn't thought of using one of those (Silly me  ).
I have a few spare from a bunch I received for getting the right voltages for LEDS, etc., 
I feel a 'trial controller' coming on.
If it works for me, many thanks John.

 

See

 for details.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Penlan]

John, yes those are the ones I have, many thanks.
I have some former 'Scalespeed handle/levers' tuck away, 

so I feel another controller coming on

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, Penlan said:

John, yes those are the ones I have, many thanks.
I have some former 'Scalespeed handle/levers' tuck away, 

so I feel another controller coming on

 

I would recommend reading the full voltage regulator thread - it is somewhat convoluted, but ends in success - it's not just a question of using the VR as it comes.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Penlan]

Thank you, will do.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by Penlan

[cctransuk]

On 18/07/2020 at 09:06, hayfield said:

 

John

 

I have found buying motors from China an absolute mine field, those I have sourced myself have been in the main, truly unsuitable. Where I have bought from a dealer whilst looking either the same or similar, the performance is worlds apart. Not tried one of yours yet as I am leaning towards coreless motors, but buying from a reputable UK source who has done all the legwork and testing has proved to me to be the only way

 

I think your price is very competitive, given you have to guarantee the items, source, pack and post net margins must be slim. Do keep up the good work

 

As my stock of Mitsumi motors is getting a little low, I decided to restock. It is evident that supplies of the version with two equal shafts are diminishing, and the price is rising accordingly.

 

I have managed to secure 200 more, at a price which is only a little higher than last time that I ordered. However, I am not confident that this excellent motor will be readily available in the longer term.

 

If you've used it and like it - stock up now. If you haven't tried one yet - now is the time to do so.

 

John Isherwood.

https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm

[Barclay]

Yes that is a disadvantage of the Chinese-sourced Mitsumi motors, the shaft at the business end can come up a little short. So far I have found them to be just long enough, but longer would be better....

 

A little progress this weekend - The chassis is quite delicately built and I didn't help matters by making hornblock cutouts that were unnecessarily large, but the new 15 thou brass spacers have added strength. The rods have been bushed with Gibson crankpin bushes, also to add strength. These were then used with the London Road Models hornblock alignment jig axles to solder in the High Level hornblocks, which helped put some more rigidity back into the chassis. I went for the slimmer variety (I normally use MJT) as they leave room for the 2 beams either side of the gearbox. Holes have been drilled in the frames for the beam pivots. There is a slot in the middle frame spacer for the beam that supports the trailing axle, so that I can adjust it up or down as required.

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Barclay