AL1 Trix Trio

[BernardTPM]

The Triang-Hornby AL1 has basically AL2 bogies; basically the chassis that went under the Hornby Dublo body was from their own AL2 project.

[Gibbo675]

1 hour ago, BernardTPM said:

The Triang-Hornby AL1 has basically AL2 bogies; basically the chassis that went under the Hornby Dublo body was from their own AL2 project.

Hi Bernard,

 

One of those would have saved me a job !

 

 

 

Gibbo.

[BernardTPM]

Though you would have still had work to do to update to that version.

Nice job!

Yes, look at the T-H bogies and the only concession to the body is the middle top bracket, the rest is AL2/Class 82.

[roythebus]

On 09/09/2020 at 18:56, Darius43 said:

Quite right - I’ll pluck away the red hoses.

 

After I’ve had dinner that is.  Gotta have priorities in this life.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

And the yellow ones.   Add steam heat pipe for the train heat boiler.

[Gibbo675]

21 minutes ago, roythebus said:

And the yellow ones.   Add steam heat pipe for the train heat boiler.

Hi Roly,

 

I see the smiley face, nice try but no cigar !!!

 

For those that don't know, there was no provision for steam heat on the electric locomotives only electric heat. Instead boiler vans were used, mostly converted from LMS porthole brake ends.

 

Most of the coaching stock provided on the WCML at the time were 100mph rated and consisted of the later built Mk1's which were dual heat and latterly dual braked, they rode on Commonwealth bogies along with the Mk2's which were also dual heated but vacuum braked only, (Mk2a's were dual heat and air braked only).

 

If no boiler vans were available, and in extreme circumstances, a black five would be coupled inside to supply steam heat to the train.

 

Gibbo.

[Darius43]

2 hours ago, roythebus said:

And the yellow ones.   Add steam heat pipe for the train heat boiler.

 

After your first post I had a look at the AL1 photos in my copy of MRC Planbook 3, which has a close up showing the buffer beam hosiery on an early AL1 that clearly shows the yellow one (or whiteish as the photo is b&w) in place. 

 

I am am just trying to improve the rather nice Trix model and so am not obsessed with making it 100% accurate, being from the “let’s have some fun with this” school of modelling.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Edited September 11, 2020 by Darius43

[Darius43]

2 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

If no boiler vans were available, and in extreme circumstances, a black five would be coupled inside to supply steam heat to the train.

 

Gibbo.

That sounds like a great candidate for the “Prototype for everything” thread.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[Gibbo675]

4 hours ago, Darius43 said:

 

After your first post I had a look at the AL1 photos in my copy of MRC Planbook 3, which has a close up showing the buffer beam hosiery on an early AL1 that clearly shows the yellow one (or whiteish as the photo is b&w) in place. 

 

I am am just trying to improve the rather nice Trix model and so am not obsessed with making it 100% accurate, being from the “let’s have some fun with this” school of modelling.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Hi Darius,

 

The air pipe with a white painted cock seems to be an oddity, white painted cocks usually denote a through pipe for brake continuity whether air or vacuum with no ability for actuating the continuous brake on that particular vehicle. It is my guess that the air pipe is for controlling the air brakes of just the locomotives when the locomotives were multiple working and not for a train's continuous air brakes for such a connection would be denoted by a red cock. I think that this may the case as the train locomotive would have to have its brake valve isolated and its vacuum exhauster shut down. Also that the locomotive's reservoir capacity in the as built condition would not have been to the required volume to support the operation of the continuous brakes of a train the very reason extra tanks were fitted upon the roofs of the locomotives after conversion.

 

I do find it curious that all of the first five classes of AC electrics were not fitted with continuous air brakes from new. 

 

Gibbo.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Gibbo675
Improper grammar.

[cheesysmith]

This is conjecture .The air brakes on a lock being towed would be worked through the proportional valve off the vac pipe. The white air pipe would be to maintain the air on a towed loco, or it would have been unbraked. 

[andyman7]

On 11/09/2020 at 10:02, BernardTPM said:

The Triang-Hornby AL1 has basically AL2 bogies; basically the chassis that went under the Hornby Dublo body was from their own AL2 project.

That's a great photo you linked to - is that a 'neverwazza' or genuine? The image in the Triang 1964 catalogue was from a time when the illustrations where heavily artworked.

[BernardTPM]

The 1964 catalogue picture seems to be just an illustration (and is numbered E3000), but that mock-up numbered E3046 was in two photographs in the 1965 catalogue, on pages 10 and 19. The separate cab alongside seems more accurate in profile so may have been the next stage towards the final tooling. They did complete the bogie tooling for it (you can see the distinctive pattern of holes in this photo), of course, which is why the Triang-Hornby AL1 is a hybrid. Mind you, the Hornby Dublo version compromised by using their Class 20 bogie sideframes. The Lilliput (later Trix) was the better attempt at the AL1 by some distance.

Edited September 12, 2020 by BernardTPM

[John Tomlinson]

Apologies for asking something that I think may have been covered on another thread.

 

If I wished to make an AL2, I could use my ancient Triang-Hornby AL1, from when I was a child, obviously with major mods. to the bodywork?

 

John.

[Titan]

49 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

Apologies for asking something that I think may have been covered on another thread.

 

If I wished to make an AL2, I could use my ancient Triang-Hornby AL1, from when I was a child, obviously with major mods. to the bodywork?

 

John.

 

I am not even sure it would need major mods, the cabs of class 81 and 82 are very similar, as is the body profile. If I was doing it I would leave the cabs as is, fill the existing grilles and bodyside windows, and cut new ones as per class 82.  Then alter roof/underframe detail as required.  The class 82 is very slightly shorter, so it is up to you if you want to hack 2mm from the middle of the body (assuming the Triang version is the correct length!), but I don't think it would be noticable.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Titan

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, Titan said:

The class 82 is very slightly shorter, so it is up to you if you want to hack 2mm from the middle of the body (assuming the Triang version is the correct length!), but I don't think it would be noticable.

Agreed. I would measure first as the Hornby Dublo/Triang-Hornby body looks shorter than the Lilliput Trix version anyway. Incidentally the bogie wheelbase for the AL2 to AL4 was 10 foot against 10' 9" for the AL1, AL5 & AL6).

Also note the grilles on the AL2 as built were symmetrical and all horizontal, altered later with some vertical AL6 style grilles.

[Gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

 

Here are some dimensions:

• Locomotive,   Buffers,   Body,   Bogie Centres,   Bogie Wheel Base.
• 81                     56'6"        54'6"    31'6"                   10'9"
• 82                     56"           54'        30'9"                   10'
• 83                     52'6"        50'        30'                       10'
• 84                     53'6"        51'        29'6"                   10'
• 85                     56'6"        54'6"    31'6"                   10'9"
• 86                     58'6"        56'6"    32'9"                   10'9"
• 87                     58'6"        56'6"    32'9"                   10'9"

The Trix 81 body is 1mm short between the inner edges of the cab doors, the cab doors are the correct size however the cab is short by 3mm from the inner edge of the cab door to the forward most edge of the radius of the cab front at the bottom edge. The rake of both the cab front and the windows are correct.

 

In all the Trix body is 7mm to short for the 81 and 85 and therefore 5mm too short for the class 82. For a more accurate model the Hornby 86 could be shortened between the cabs and have its cab front cut and shut to rake it forward. The best bit is of course that the Hornby 86 body is itself 2mm too short as is the Lima 87.

 

Any way I like my Trix cut and shuts.

 

Gibbo.

[Northmoor]

12 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Here are some dimensions:

• Locomotive,   Buffers,   Body,   Bogie Centres,   Bogie Wheel Base.
• 81                     56'6"        54'6"    31'6"                   10'9"
• 82                     56"           54'        30'9"                   10'
• 83                     52'6"        50'        30'                       10'
• 84                     53'6"        51'        29'6"                   10'
• 85                     56'6"        54'6"    31'6"                   10'9"
• 86                     58'6"        56'6"    32'9"                   10'9"
• 87                     58'6"        56'6"    32'9"                   10'9"

 

 

"They all look the same to me", said most spotters......

 

Having been involved with the preservation of the "old ladies" since the beginning (on and off), I'm been closer to them then many but sometimes I can identify them wrongly from pictures.  One common factor is the cab; in an outbreak of common sense, the BRB specified a standard design so that drivers were familiar with all five AL1-5 types, as far as possible.  The AL4/84 is slightly different though in position of the headcode box and marker lights.

 

Not relevant to models but one "fun" aspect of the AL1-5 classes is that as the electrical contractors were all different, each set of auxiliaries runs on different voltages, e.g. the 82 is standard 240V*, the 83 is 415V 3-phase*, the 81 is something weird.... The 86s are most closely based on the 85's design, but of course retained their design weaknesses like the axle-hung bogies, which required the expensive modification with Flexicoil suspension and SAB resilient wheels to stop them hammering the WCML permanent way to such an extent.  But some 86s are still in service after 55 years, so they must be "about right".

 

Rob

 

*Yes you can plug them into the wall, but the meter will go round pretty fast.....

[Dagworth]

23 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

The Trix 81 body is 1mm short between the inner edges of the cab doors, the cab doors are the correct size however the cab is short by 3mm from the inner edge of the cab door to the forward most edge of the radius of the cab front at the bottom edge. The rake of both the cab front and the windows are correct.

 

In all the Trix body is 7mm to short for the 81 and 85 and therefore 5mm too short for the class 82. For a more accurate model the Hornby 86 could be shortened between the cabs and have its cab front cut and shut to rake it forward. The best bit is of course that the Hornby 86 body is itself 2mm too short as is the Lima 87.

 

Any way I like my Trix cut and shuts.

I thought that the Trix AL1 was to scale (Apart from the stretched bogies) Did you mean the Triang one?

 

Andi

[Darius43]

Body painted and chassis fabricated from a Hornby Class 86 chassis.  Details* added to the white metal bogie sides that came with the resin body.

 

 

 

 

* with thanks to Gibbo for the pics on his Class 83 thread.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Edited December 4, 2022 by Darius43

[Gibbo675]

8 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

I thought that the Trix AL1 was to scale (Apart from the stretched bogies) Did you mean the Triang one?

 

Andi

Hi Andi,

 

All of my early AC electrics are either Trix or Dapol from the origianl Trix tooling and the measurements are as quoted in my post with the table of leading dimensions. The cabs are effectively a scale nine inches too short from the from edge of the cab door to the front edge of the cab, the rest of the moulding is pretty accurate.

 

I think that the rake of the cab front assists in hiding the fact that the cab is in fact too short.

 

A Hornby 86 juxtaposed with a Trix 81 shewing smaller windows due to cab being 3mm short. The cab sides are almost identical except for the rake of the lower half under the windows which should make them longer than the class 86 by a scale 6".

 

Cab door to front 29mm.

 

Cab door to front 26mm.

 

Gibbo.

[Darius43]

A bit more progress on the chassis.

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Edited December 4, 2022 by Darius43

[Darius43]

Test fit of body to chassis.

 

 

 

 

 

Still to fit cab front handrails and bogie steps.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Edited December 4, 2022 by Darius43

[roythebus]

I suppose we've become so accustomed to the Trix loco "looking" right for so many years the odd few mm short doesn't notice. It just LOOKS right despite the bogie wheelbase being wrong too. It has the atmosphere and character of the real thing.

 

Top marks for noticing my spoof on the steam heat pipes.   the white pipes are control air pipes on mosts locos that have them; the only point of them on the early electrics would be for the loco brake on any trailing loco. They were never fitted for multiple operation. They could work in tandem and would need a driver on each loco to drive it, with the driver on the leading loco controlling the brake on the whole train. By the time I got to work on them in 1974/75 they'd all been fitted with dual pipe train air brakes. 

 

It would have been interesting to see one doing a ton with a Black 5 in tow providing steam heat! But no doubt they'd be limited to something like 50mph with a steamer in tow.

 

Over the years I've converted a Hornby dublo one to a class 73 as per Chris Leigh's article in the MRC in about 1963, a Triang body to an 82 or similar, a Trix to an 85 (still got that somewhere) and a Trix to an 86 before the Hornby model came out. I've still got the bits of that if anyone is interested in a body for bits.

And an AM1 under construction from Comet suburban coaches on Adrian Swain underframes and ends. I'm never going to live long enough now to finish all these conversions that were started in the late 1960s!

 

 

[Darius43]

Some more details added.

 

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Edited December 4, 2022 by Darius43

[Darius43]

Something about the bogie positions didn’t look right to me so I modified the chassis by removing 2mm from each end and adding 4mm to the centre.  I think this looks better.

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Edited December 4, 2022 by Darius43

[Darius43]

Class 83 completed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Edited December 4, 2022 by Darius43