Electrofrog Point Stalling

[JC]

I'm confused. I'm a rookie and having realised that set track is not for me, I'm in the process of swapping out the set track for flexitrack and electrofrog points. I've done a couple of points already and laid some set track with no running problems whatsoever. However, today I've just swapped a point which sits on what is effectively the mainline loop (it's a single track loop) and immediately trains are stalling as they turnout to the branch siding on the right. I've played around checking joiners to no avail. When I swap the set track point back in it works no problem. 

 

Initially when I started with the electrofrog points I thought I'd have wiring issues, but having read up I was thinking it would be fine and when I put the first two points in (which are not directly on the mainline loop)  I had no problems - now I'm flummoxed.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Pic of point in question is here. The power comes from further down the line behind the camera.

 

 

[smokebox]

It may be due to you not having any insulating rail joiners on the frog rails, causing a short circuit when the loco is on the frog.

[JC]

3 minutes ago, smokebox said:

It may be due to you not having any insulating rail joiners on the frog rails, causing a short circuit when the loco is on the frog.

It is like it's shorting. 

 

On the points that I've put in which work fine I've not put any insulating joiners and have had no issues so two questions if I may:

 

1. Why would this particular point short and not the others?

2. Where should I put the insulating joiners on the point?

 

Cheers

[smokebox]

1.  Depends on your exact track layout but you should always fit 2  IRJs (insulating joiners) to the frog rails.  The only exception to this is if the point is leading into a dead end siding.  Even then, it can be a good idea to fit IRJs in case of alterations in the future.

 

2.  See piccy

 

 

You may get away with not fitting the two upper IRJ's but best practice is to fit them all.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by smokebox
Added text

[Gilbert]

Try this..

 

http://www.brunelhobbies.com.au/PECO/Electrofrog_Instructions.htm

[JC]

9 minutes ago, smokebox said:

1.  Depends on your exact track layout but you should always fit 2  IRJs (insulating joiners) to the frog rails.  The only exception to this is if the point is leading into a dead end siding.  Even then, it can be a good idea to fit IRJs in case of alterations in the future.

 

2.  See piccy

 

 

You may get away with not fitting the two upper IRJ's but best practice is to fit them all.

 

 

The point does lead into a dead end siding - though there is another electrofrog point further into that siding. I fitted two IRJs into the Frog Vee and it's made no difference....still stalling 

[JC]

8 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

Try this..

 

http://www.brunelhobbies.com.au/PECO/Electrofrog_Instructions.htm

Thanks for that. Having looked also at Brian Lambert's site I'm pretty sure I've done it as he says "Other than fitting the IRJs onto the frog Vee rails, nothing else needs to be done to allow the live frog point to work."

 

And as I said before, what I don't understand is why the other two points I've put in work fine and this one doesn't???

[smokebox]

Check that all the factory fitted wire links under the point are in place and making good contact.

[JC]

15 minutes ago, smokebox said:

Check that all the factory fitted wire links under the point are in place and making good contact.

Appears to be and I've swapped a couple of points around still same issue.

[JC]

I've just noticed something else. The point in question is on the main loop. If I have all the points switched to run the loop, the train runs straight through the point and continues fine. However, if I interrupt the loop by switching a point further round the loop so that the power feed is only coming from tip end of the point then the train also stalls immediately after the point straight ahead.

 

So it's not just after the siding turnout where the stall happens.

Edited September 13, 2020 by JC

[JC]

I'm now wondering if I will need to feed power after each set of points......but I can't understand why. As I said above, I've already fitted an electrofrog point elsewhere on the layout, though not on the main loop, without issue.

[Graham108]

You need a multimeter if possible - this will enable you to check power is getting to all areas of the track.

 

If not take 1 or 2 pieces of wire and manually connect them from in front of the point to after the point. 

 

You should also check that you've got the same polarity to all tracks, everywhere you have them, and the connections to the track are not loose in any way

[JC]

2 minutes ago, bartram108 said:

You need a multimeter if possible - this will enable you to check power is getting to all areas of the track.

 

If not take 1 or 2 pieces of wire and manually connect them from in front of the point to after the point. 

 

You should also check that you've got the same polarity to all tracks, everywhere you have them, and the connections to the track are not loose in any way

Good idea I have access to a multimeter. Can you tell I'm not an electrician....seems pretty obvious now to check that.

 

You mean solder a wire to the rail on the piece of track before the point and to the rail on the piece of track after the point? And if so, surely the point should be letting power flow through it and shouldn't need that to be done?

 

Ref the polarity I just have one power feed into the whole layout. It runs perfectly with insulfrog points so I don't think that's the issue?

[Graham108]

2 minutes ago, JC said:

Good idea I have access to a multimeter. Can you tell I'm not an electrician....seems pretty obvious now to check that.

 

You mean solder a wire to the rail on the piece of track before the point and to the rail on the piece of track after the point?

You shouldn't need to solder anything - hold them if possible, or temporarily fit them between the track and the sleeper

And if so, surely the point should be letting power flow through it and shouldn't need that to be done?

I assume this is what you're trying to establish!

Ref the polarity I just have one power feed into the whole layout. It runs perfectly with insulfrog points so I don't think that's the issue?

Well there's your problem in one - if you're using E/F points you'll definitely need multiple feeds, unless as another poster has mentioned, all your points are just going to a dead end - which I'm guessing not as you mention loops. You obviously haven't grasped the concept of E/F points.

 

[JC]

1 minute ago, bartram108 said:

 

All my points do go to dead ends. It's pretty well a shunting layout with a loop. 

 

However, it's eminently feasible I haven't grasped the concept of the EF points, but my power input is placed such that power goes to all the toe ends of the points on the layout - shouldn't that do it? It also still doesn't explain why two of the points I've fitted work fine yet this one doesn't? Though this point is the only EF point I've tried to fit to the main loop.

[kevinlms]

8 hours ago, JC said:

All my points do go to dead ends. It's pretty well a shunting layout with a loop. 

 

However, it's eminently feasible I haven't grasped the concept of the EF points, but my power input is placed such that power goes to all the toe ends of the points on the layout - shouldn't that do it? It also still doesn't explain why two of the points I've fitted work fine yet this one doesn't? Though this point is the only EF point I've tried to fit to the main loop.

You need to provide a track plan of your whole layout.

Without knowing where everything is in relation to one another, it's impossible to give detailed information.

 

Probably you need more feeds as others have already stated, but where is the question.

[JC]

4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

You need to provide a track plan of your whole layout.

Without knowing where everything is in relation to one another, it's impossible to give detailed information.

 

Probably you need more feeds as others have already stated, but where is the question.

You're right on all counts I think. I'll try and do a track plan, though I'm thinking now that I'll just put power feeds into all sections of track that don't have power when I've converted to EF.

[Graham108]

1 hour ago, JC said:

You're right on all counts I think. I'll try and do a track plan, though I'm thinking now that I'll just put power feeds into all sections of track that don't have power when I've converted to EF.

You're still going to need an isolating break in your loop somewhere

[JC]

1 hour ago, bartram108 said:

You're still going to need an isolating break in your loop somewhere

I shall give that a try thank you. It seems like it's the loop that's the issue as the EF point that does work fine is not on the loop.

[JC]

I've had a play with power input and IRJs and have progressed. Have now got all points and track working as per the plan below except for no power past the EF with the red circle around it. 

 

Notes:

 

The EF point in the siding on the left that is working has no IRJs fitted to the vee.

 

Can't get power past the EF point with the red circle. Should I have to feed more power in here?

 

The one EF point on the main loop only lets power to its siding if there is no IRJ on that turnout vee. There is an IRJ on the same point on the mainline part of the EF vee. I'm not sure that having only one IRJ on the EF point is by the book but it works currently?

 

All other points are currently IF.

 

So questions....

 

1. Have I got the power feeds and IRJ placement correct? Obviously not with regards to the EF with the red circle, but everything else functions.

2. If not, what would be optimal power feed and IRJ placement with the current 3 EF points as per plan attached?

3. What would be the optimal power feed and IRJ placement with all points converted to EF?

 

Really appreciate your help folks.

 

Cheers

 

JC

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by JC

[Graham108]

2 hours ago, JC said:

Notes:

 

The EF point in the siding on the left that is working has no IRJs fitted to the vee. - Correct but this will only work if all the relevant I/F are switched correctly

 

Can't get power past the EF point with the red circle. Should I have to feed more power in here? Looks like it should work OK - if power is there between the 2 E/F's then it could be a faulty point

 

The one EF point on the main loop only lets power to its siding if there is no IRJ on that turnout vee. And the main loop point needs to be switched accordingly or you won't get any power at all as both rails will be the same polarity

 

There is an IRJ on the same point on the mainline part of the EF vee. I'm not sure that having only one IRJ on the EF point is by the book but it works currently? At last!! Don't think you need the IRJ's on the right.

 

All other points are currently IF.

 

So questions....

 

1. Have I got the power feeds and IRJ placement correct? Obviously not with regards to the EF with the red circle, but everything else functions. I'd move the power feed at the top of the picture to somewhere between the 2 points anti-clockwise

2. If not, what would be optimal power feed and IRJ placement with the current 3 EF points as per plan attached? 

3. What would be the optimal power feed and IRJ placement with all points converted to EF? That's a much bigger answer but now knowing what you know you should be able to work it out 

 

 

[Grovenor]

Quote

3. What would be the optimal power feed and IRJ placement with all points converted to EF?

You just need two feeds, so there is a feed into all points from the toe, (switch end) and isolation to stop anf feeds from the frog (crossing) end. So move the top power left so it is between the two toes. And isolate on the right where you have it and on the left between the two loop turnouts, ie the centre two red crosses in the earlier diagrams.

[JC]

22 hours ago, bartram108 said:

Can't get power past the EF point with the red circle. Should I have to feed more power in here? Looks like it should work OK - if power is there between the 2 E/F's then it could be a faulty point

 

Right well all is good now except for this flipping point. I swapped in another new EF point and it still doesn't work so I don't think it's a faulty point issue. Beginning to lose the will with it a bit now 

[Gilbert]

Can you isolate the power from the "mainline" upper frog  powered rail and feed power separately to it? Just try it with a jump lead before you fix it all in place

[JC]

21 hours ago, Grovenor said:

You just need two feeds, so there is a feed into all points from the toe, (switch end) and isolation to stop anf feeds from the frog (crossing) end. So move the top power left so it is between the two toes. And isolate on the right where you have it and on the left between the two loop turnouts, ie the centre two red crosses in the earlier diagrams.

Cheers mate.  That's what it now looks like, except I've now swapped the IF point for an EF point as per blue circle below. And no matter where I put IRJs on that point I can't get power into the siding off that EF point either?

Edited September 15, 2020 by JC