Painting Black Inside Coaches - Remove Glazing?

[Sir TophamHatt]

I'm painting up some of the inside of some MK1 coaches (to stop light bleed).

 

The first two, I didn't remove the glazing from inside and went carefully. But I wasn't careful enough and got some on the glazing. Then when removing it with some tweezers and tissue, I made a small scratch 

 

The next two (and subsequent 16), I'm looking at removing the glazing.

 

I'm a bit afraid of snapping it though. Loosened one bit on the end but it seems inside it's all joined by some sort of zig zag effect.

 

The only way I can think of doing it is purposefully cutting the glazing into parts instead of trying to get the whole lot out in one go.

 

Doesn't help that there's little lugs near the top of the coach roof that stops me pressing it out of the window frames.

 

Any advice? 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Sir TophamHatt

[33C]

Try neat petrol,( it eats glue that's old), BUT sparingly. Start with lighter petrol (Ronsonol or similar), this does the trick 90% of the time for me. Keep a close eye on the job in hand and tease the glazing as you apply. It's great for getting old price labels/sellotape off boxes etc and drys clean and clear.

[cctransuk]

23 minutes ago, 33C said:

Try neat petrol .....

 

..... but only outdoors, and only well away from sources of ignition!

 

I find that a scalpel blade, twisted between coach side and glazing, nearly always breaks the bond, not the glazing.

[33C]

2 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

..... but only outdoors, and only well away from sources of ignition!

 

I find that a scalpel blade, twisted between coach side and glazing, nearly always breaks the bond, not the glazing.

First attempt...........!

[ikcdab]

i depends which coaches and how the glazing is fixed. 

Cant you just mask it with tape?

Tammy tape is great for that sort of thing.

Ian

[johndon]

As above, I'd just mask the windows on the inside.  As for getting excess paint off them, a cocktail stick should be able to remove the paint without scratching the plastic.

[Sir TophamHatt]

Hard to see but here is a photo.

 

I'm not sure masking off the inside would work as it's a huge amount of work as I'd have to mask each window.

 

The glazing is glued from the bottom.

 

The small long grooves are fairly fragile. 

[ikcdab]

To be honest, I'm not sure id bother painting. You really can't see the insides anyway (at least I can't on my layout).

Might be easier just to leave it.

And coaches weren't black on the inside anyway. A lot of mk 1s were varnished wood or a light colour.

Ian

Edited November 5, 2020 by ikcdab

[Skinnylinny]

I suspect the black might be as it's the most opaque paint, and to stop light leaking through the bodyshell when interior lighting is fitted. The carriage body looks to be made of self-coloured plastic (probably with a thin coat of paint over the outside) which is translucent enough that this is a problem; the whole carriage body glows if not painted on the inside. You can, of course, paint the appropriate colour over the black; it's just a barrier layer.

[jonny777]

I think you are right, ikcdab. Although I would probably inspect a random model open carriage from maybe 6 inches away just to discover what can and cannot be seen through the windows. 

 

I know that on a few of my old Bachmann non vestibule coaches, I went to great trouble painting the seats and the wooden partitions, added a few seated passengers; then re-assembled the vehicle only to discover that I could see about 5mm into the interior at normal viewing distance and most of my effort was now invisible. 

 

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 05/11/2020 at 09:07, Skinnylinny said:

I suspect the black might be as it's the most opaque paint, and to stop light leaking through the bodyshell when interior lighting is fitted. The carriage body looks to be made of self-coloured plastic (probably with a thin coat of paint over the outside) which is translucent enough that this is a problem; the whole carriage body glows if not painted on the inside. You can, of course, paint the appropriate colour over the black; it's just a barrier layer.

Correct!

I've added lights to two coaches and the light bleed is more noticeable since someone pointed it out.
The last two I've now painted as a barrier to help stop the light bleed. The photo looks a lot worse than it actually is as photos seek the light but you get the idea.

 

I have 16 MK3s to light up so guess I may have to employ the same painting of the insides.  Haven't opened one so don't know about the glazing as yet.

This is a photograph.  The lights look twice if not nearly three times as bright here as the camera I used was searching out for any light possible in a pretty much black room.
This is how photography works, especially with a relatively simple camera.
 

I've added a slight note to the opening post that makes this more clear

Edited November 8, 2020 by Sir TophamHatt

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Correct!

I've added lights to two coaches and the light bleed is more noticeable since someone pointed it out.
The last two I've now painted as a barrier to help stop the light bleed. The photo looks a lot worse than it actually is as photos seek the light but you get the idea.

 

I have 16 MK3s to light up so guess I may have to employ the same painting of the insides.  Haven't opened one so don't know about the glazing as yet.

 

I've added a slight note to the opening post that makes this more clear

 

I know that is 'each to his own', but I just can't get my head around this fad for putting bright lighting in everything - especially for models of the steam / early diesel era.

 

If you saw a train after dark from the outside, the internal lighting was either invisible or, if close enough, barely discernable.

 

We are so used nowadays to the full glare of bright lighting that it is forgotten that it was necessary to turn on individual reading lights in a carriage in order to read - and very few travellers did that.

 

John Isherwood.

[KeithMacdonald]

This topic has stirred a memory...

 

A lot of folk here know that Sir Rod Stewart is a great model railway enthusiast.

 

Not a lot of folk know that the Rolling Stones were as well (in their youth).

 

Some say, it was mostly of BR Freight Locos (painted black, post-nationalisation, as per the 1948 Temporary Painting Schedules). Perhaps inspired by the volume of coal freight through their local station, Dartford in Kent. The coal wagons were nicknamed "rickshaws", after Richard Shaw, a local coal merchant.

 

They even wrote a song about it. Have you guessed what it is yet?

 

[doctor quinn]

Could you apply liquid masking (Humbrol Maskol ) over the glazing before painting?

Edited November 6, 2020 by doctor quinn
Autocorrect

[Merfyn Jones]

I'm with John Isherwood on this. Even worse with semaphore signals where the oil lamp lights the whole room up.

[Huw Griffiths]

On 05/11/2020 at 09:00, ikcdab said:

... And coaches weren't black on the inside anyway. A lot of mk 1s were varnished wood or a light colour.

 

On 05/11/2020 at 19:13, Sir TophamHatt said:

I've added lights to two coaches and the light bleed is more noticeable since someone pointed it out.

The last two I've now painted as a barrier to help stop the light bleed. The photo looks a lot worse than it actually is as photos seek the light but you get the idea.

 

I have 16 MK3s to light up so guess I may have to employ the same painting of the insides.  Haven't opened one so don't know about the glazing as yet.

 

Hmmm ... I wonder ... .

 

Please don't take this the wrong way - but, when I saw the lit coach bodyshell photo, I thought it could have been great last Saturday. It reminds me of an experiment I did a few years back using a YMRV Mk1 - stick a lightbar inside and it starts to resemble a jack-o'-lantern.

 

At the time, I intended to do a series of experiments with different lighting arrangements (lightbars with different resistors and filters over the LEDs - standard LEDs on their sides, with straws or clear plastic rods between them - perhaps using bits of black PVC insulating tape every so often to mimic the spaces between striplights - that sort of stuff).

 

To allow for ease of swapping the boards in and out, I was thinking of using velcro, magnets, bolts with captive nuts, or something vaguely similar - I never got chance to work this bit out. (On reflection, I might have "over thought" this one - the YMRV coaches have removable roofs and sides!)

 

As for stopping light bleed, I got as far as painting the inside of some bodyshell offcuts black - and adding some foil tape (Screwfix, Toolstation, sometimes Aldi or Lidl) inside others - then shining a torch through - both methods worked.

 

As for which method to use, I reckon there's an element of which Mk1 coach models you've got.

 

The YMRV coaches can be split apart and clipped back together - which would make it easy to add some foil tape inside, lightly press to find the edges of the window frames and trim the tape using a scalpel. Another layer of tape - this time insulating tape in brown (or perhaps white) - and the job's done.

 

Otherwise, I'd reckon on painting the inside black - then getting a cheap kid's paintbrush and adding a streaky layer of tan coloured paint - for that "tasteful" 60s / 70s fake woodgrain look.

 

This approach would also work with the YMRV coaches - but, if you've got Replica coaches (or another make with one piece bodyshells), I suspect it might be the only game in town.

 

 

Incidentally, when I did my experiments, I intended to take them a bit further - different roofs and sides, with and without measures to block light bleed - a series of photos - and an old shoebox to block out background light and allow for the possibility of taking the (light) show on the road.

 

It would have been an easy demo to do at any show - how many people would have been interested is anyone's guess. Of course, I never got chance to get it to that stage - mainly due to caring responsibilities for my mother and (now late) father.

 

 

Anyway, returning to the original subject, I'll be interested to see how you get on with this stuff.

 

 

Regards,

 

Huw

Edited November 8, 2020 by Huw Griffiths

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 05/11/2020 at 21:02, cctransuk said:

I know that is 'each to his own', but I just can't get my head around this fad for putting bright lighting in everything - especially for models of the steam / early diesel era.

 

If you saw a train after dark from the outside, the internal lighting was either invisible or, if close enough, barely discernable.

To be fair, it's a photography distortion that makes the lights seem that bright.
Try it yourself - very (almost pitch) black room, turn on a small light and point it at the camera.  Take the photo.  The light will look a lot brighter as the camera tries to balance the light it sees with the surroundings.  The shutter needs to be open longer so it can gather as much detail from the near on black surroundings but it also needs to be open only a short time as the light it sees is pretty bright (in comparison to the surroundings).
 

I don't particularly plan on using these in the dark, but will take a photo in the light they would usually run in.  It'll be completely different.

 

But (and I don't mean to come across as rude here) I'm asking how to do it not whether I should .

 

 

I'll try some of the methods discussed above and report back if I manage it.
It'll be especially interesting to see what the MK3s are like - two sets, one MML (old livery) the other the latest Swallow livery - both from a window glazing point of view and a bodyshell point of view.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Sir TophamHatt

[ColinK]

Hi, I’ve just finished installing lighting in 13 Bachmann Mk2s plus the Hebridean observation (ex dmu) car. I agree that the lights look far brighter than they actually are when photographed.  I’ve not painted the inside of my coaches black, but I have painted the interiors and added people.

 

I’m wondering what you are using for the lights? Home made or kits?  

[Sir TophamHatt]

21 hours ago, ColinK said:

I’m wondering what you are using for the lights? Home made or kits?  

Home made.

I'd been waiting since about February for a kit from from a retailer that primarily started selling magnetic couplings but despite "ready to send next week" and "packs together next week" and "you'll be the first one we send" - 8 months later, I gave up and got some components together to make my own.

 

Lights: Ali Express - These aren't the exact ones I used but they're the same product (my account doesn't seem to show me the seller I ordered from).  I ordered a spool of warm white and a spool of cool white.  Estimated 30cm or so per coach, got 6m worth of each for less than £10.  The brand I bought was "Elenker" E0008125, but I suspect they're all very similar.

Resistors (220R): ebay - check as many sellers will sell for 99p free postage for 20.

Resistors (3k): ebay (no link, account doesn't show it )

Bronze Strips: ebay - by far the most 'expensive for what it is' component.  I didn't have any to hand or any knowhow of where to buy some cheaper ones from.

Bridge Rectifiers: RapidOnline
 

Capacitors: RapidOnline - make sure you get more than 16v.  25V is great and the 1000µF is enough.  I was going to go for higher but after a little play, the lower value is fine.  They fade slightly when taking them off the track, then about 10 seconds later begin a very slow (20-30 second) fade.

 

Leant heavily on this thread:

 

But it's actually pretty easy to do - @Art Dent explains things very simply and because they show simple diagrams of components and screenshots instead of just a proper electronic diagram, it means I can follow easily.  The more crude the drawing, the easier it is for me.

Self-built means it's also more flexible than a kit as I can put them together how I want rather than having something pre-built and squeezing that in.

I did think of a little piece of board to attach all the components to but decided not to bother (despite it being cheap) and turns out I didn't need it after all.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Sir TophamHatt

[ColinK]

Thanks, I’m waiting for some bits from that same retailer.

 

I’ve used kits from Layouts4U who have been great.

 

 

[Sir TophamHatt]

Just an an update to this, painting black definitely helps.

 

Big light off:

 

And to allay the fears of those who think they're too bright, a big light on view:

 

It may make you think that with the light in, you can't see the light shining through anyway but if there's partial light in the room or I did some night running, it's worth painting black I think.

 

I'll update when I move on to the MK3s.