The Spare Bedroom Layout

[Lacathedrale]

Very cute @Nearholmer - any more pictures? a plan?

 

Overall SG vs NG is an Interesting question - I've almost always considered standard gauge in whatever scale, my only real interaction with narrow-gauge is with Rev. Awdry's series from when I was a nipper. I've cheekily asked the missus for a driving experience on one of the Welsh narrow-gauge lines so that might change!  I do quite enjoy watching videos from GE Rik: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ0dpEHVU7JnSX5vvFX79-w - who does the whole 'light narrow gauge railway in the garden' thing and that does match up with my 'system-layout' premise from earlier...

 

For the sake of argument, how does one even go about planning a layout of that size, even if the track plan itself is quite simple? It feels like something you'd read in one of Greenly's books more than MRJ or BRM!

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Do you mean SG G1, or 45mm as a narrow gauge? Steam is common in both, of course, but the design considerations are very different - my small line is all 4ft radius curves, which looks and works perfectly fine with the smallish narrow gauge stock I have.

(Note football and dog proof construction)

 

In your space you could build a NG railway, all of one, without things becoming busy or cramped, certainly in 45mm, and I’ve seen it done in 5” in a much smaller space, but if that sort of thing doesn’t float your boat ....

You're really not helping him choose an indoor room here @Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Well, if you want a book on the subject by Greenly, I have one to hand, but it is possibly the least useful of his books - he appears not to have been one tenth as good as designing layouts as he was at everything else!

 

Mine is a simple circuit, one passing loop with two sidings, kidney-shaped in plan, about 30m around. It was meant to be part of a grander scheme, based on experience from lines in our previous two gardens, but I was seriously busy with work and family, and found that having an outdoor line only didn't fit with that, because whenever I had free time it was pitch dark, raining, and cold. Hence migrating to an indoor line, and restarting my interest in old-style 0.

 

Narrow gauge is very different, especially the "field railway" type that I've long been into, so will require a bit of study if you've only ever been into SG. Its almost a case of forgetting everything you know, and starting again.

 

Best way to start learning about the model side of things is to cadge a few visits to other people's lines (start by contacting the 16mm NGA), but beware that a lot of people build models of SG railways in Missmarpleshire, with the rails too close together - very twee, and bearing little resemblance to real NG, the basic premise of which was almost always cheapness, and hence simplicity. Even most of the preserved NG lines mostly aren't much like the real thing any more, having been over-developed. And, to add to the challenge, every one of the few NG common carrier line in these isles was unique, so "typical" is quite hard to achieve!

 

But, in your space you could represent an entire simple line, from traffic-source to wherever it handed-over to SG or boats. Worth swotting-up on the Ravenglass & Eskdale in its 3ft gauge days, for instance - famously closed down by Winston Churchill for being too dangerous!

 

 

[Lacathedrale]

So my thoughts after a short break are - that it's probably worthwhile designing a layout that's initially no larger than two wings of an L-shape, with one less than 7' and one less than 9' - that way it can fit into any room, and also live in the insulated garden workshop. As I said, I don't think I can sustain a model engineering hobby with a garden layout AND a smaller model railway, so the garden workshop can play host to one of the two mutually exclusive options.

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[Nearholmer]

Good choice - there'll be time for The Grand Scheme once you retire.

[Lacathedrale]

Well it's not to say I won't pursue 1 Gauge or or 5" Gauge,  which I think are significantly grand - but rather that I can only do one of the three, and the small scale layout can only exist in that L-shape format at first. Either way, it's great food for thought and I'm very appreciative of the help and advise, as always.

 

 

[Donw]

SOme interesting comments gents.   

 

My train room here was 11'8"x13'   but is now mainly 11'8"x9ft after some was nicked for an ensuite. It has meant the door is on a bit off to one side so you come in via the corner.  The room is quite small considering I want it to house an 0 gauge layout and I want a continuous run.

We have been here for 5 years and very little modeling has been done due to major work on th house and garden (large)  . The train room has been commandered for storage then everything was shoved to one side while the en suite was done. All the modelling stuff was piled over 6ft in height and covered with a tarpaulin for long time. 

However I do have a large pile of bricks from demolished outbuildings (removd to great a decent space at the rear of the house and terracing to stop in feeling closed in. Some of these bricks are now being converted into a large shed up the garden. Which will store some of the 16mm NG trains. I have an area of about 80ft x35 ft for the garden layout and may also put an 0 gauge layout in there. 

I need to keep the one in the house as with the shed being about 200ft and 20ft up from the house it not where you want to go for a quick half hour particularly on a wet night. I also have the modelling desk in the train room o the indoor layout will be needed for testing.

 

Don

 

[Zomboid]

So what do you want your L shaped layout to do? It's probably a different remit entirely to the take over the spare room that week were starting from.

 

In OO (or HO) A city terminus - corner - traverser arrangement would probably be viable, or a standard BLT... Or you could do something more specialised without passenger trains etc...

[Lacathedrale]

Well, @Zomboid - I think that the L-shaped layout probably needs to be initially self contained, but in theory forms an elbow of a larger future layout. In such a limited space the 2mmFS standards naturally reassert themselves as the obvious choice. Overall however, my sojourn into coarse 0 via @Nearholmer has really got me thinking about continuous running live steam in the garden in G1, G3 or 5" Gauge.

 

That said, the purchase of the property while still going ahead is not yet a done deal and as such I'm reluctant to count too many eggs before they're laid. I have found a picture eof the house (leftmost of the trio) in 1949 which shows the proximity to the brighton mainline. Sadly, no Pullmans - just a pickup goods held outside HH station:

 

 

 

 

[Kris]

Bet the same very today is very very different. 

[Lacathedrale]

Funnily enough, the Benevolent Institute remains (albeit without the strange dogbone shaped driveway) and while the intermediate area in the photograph is now houses, the  fields in the distance are still there, thankfullly, as are those out of shot to the left.

 

Some light afternoon reading:

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[Satan's Goldfish]

On 19/01/2021 at 19:37, Lacathedrale said:

Very cute @Nearholmer - any more pictures? a plan?

 

 

 

For the sake of argument, how does one even go about planning a layout of that size, even if the track plan itself is quite simple? It feels like something you'd read in one of Greenly's books more than MRJ or BRM!

 

 

I've had a read over the thread and can draw some parallels in situation. I'm a similar age to you, and when Mrs SG and I were house hunting a couple of years ago we ended up with a similar sized garden to your lawned area purposefully so i could build my own workshop/railway room as i have a mixture of indoor and garden railways. I was happy with this arrangement as it meant i could design the building around the railways rather than trying to design a railway to fit into a compromised room in the house. The house came with a pair of 8ft x 6ft sheds anyway which we used for storage initially, one of them was temporarily moved to clear the space for the new 32.5ft x 12.5ft 'shed', and once that was built one of the smaller sheds was sold on and the other used for gardening equipment. You've got a brilliant blank canvass there to negotiate a garden railway, especially if you can earn some domestic brownie points by not having to negotiate which room of the house will have trains in!

 

My garden equipment is LGB G scale Swiss meter gauge, this works nicely with 16ft+ long mainline style trains in a narrow gauge environment at ground level and is very child friendly. It's robust enough to put down and take up again at short notice when ever visitors are due before being permanently installed in the garden. I've found planning an outdoor layout that size is very different to designing anything with fixed baseboard sizes, you need to look at the garden and work out where it can run without being too intrusive (unless the domestic authorities are happy to give up the entire garden!) and then work out how best to cross any gaps or issues in the plan.

[Donw]

I was looking at someones plans today to build Paddington in a 40ft x20ft space now that would be a big layout. Not escpecially the space but there is a lot of trackwork in Paddington.

I put a roof on the brick shed yesterday using an EDPM . The roof size is 20ft x 12ft (only one sheet of OSB needed to be cut) when stood on the roof it did look a big space.

 

Don

[Lacathedrale]

So, i've been mulling over the thread for a while and it's a really tough path to negotiate conceptually.  Do I want to build a system, a layout or a locomotive? Should I build something I want the most, or that has the most chance of success? Should I be focusing on the journey, or the destination?

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

So, i've been mulling over the thread for a while and it's a really tough path to negotiate conceptually.  Do I want to build a system, a layout or a locomotive? Should I build something I want the most, or that has the most chance of success? Should I be focusing on the journey, or the destination?

I think you need to buy the house first, move in, get settled and then what you feel like doing.  A destination though is a good idea as you can then plan/project manage your way to the destination, if you just begin diddling with unconnected bits you'll end up going nowhere.

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

Should I build something I want the most, or that has the most chance of success

Normally those would be the same thing since you'll be more motivated, at least once you've ruled out fantastical nonsense.

 

So what do you want the most, and why would you choose to do something different?

[Keith Addenbrooke]

2 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

So, i've been mulling over the thread for a while and it's a really tough path to negotiate conceptually.  Do I want to build a system, a layout or a locomotive? Should I build something I want the most, or that has the most chance of success? Should I be focusing on the journey, or the destination?

Or perhaps, which should I build first?  Which is the most achievable in the midst of settling in to a new home?  And what will help you get started on the journey towards your eventual destination (as @woodenhead suggests).   Just a thought, Keith.

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Should I be focusing on the journey, or the destination?

One thing experience teaches me is that the intended destination changes over time.

 

There are people who pursue one hobby-objective for years on end, and create a masterpiece in the process, Rev Denny perhaps being the archetype. But, many people, myself included, are a tad ‘butterfly-brained’, and change interests fairly often. I’ve been through about half a dozen “phases” in almost fifty years.

 

Have you worked out yet what your ‘hobby personality’ dictates? If you are a ‘butterfly’, you might be better with smaller, shorter-term projects. Paul RhB on here is a good case, because he seems to work in several themes, rather than towards a single major theme.

[Metropolitan H]

What a fascinating thread. I am left wondering whether your main problem is almost being "Spoilt for choice" and having too much space and too many options.

 

Mrs. H and I have been resident in this house for 42 years, but I have always known that my layout options were constrained / limited. Despite that I have:

 

- A small 45mm "G" scale garden line with continuous run, in a space about 20 feet x 14 feet, which has a minimum curve radius of 4 feet and a maximum of about 7 feet - so I rely on LGB (and other makes) of 1:22.5 scale models of Swiss metre gauge stock, "OR" 1:19 scale models of Welshpool & Llanfair or similar sized UK n.g. prototype stock. This line has been present for about 35 years - despite having been lifted and relaid a couple of times - to basically the same design.

 

AND,

- A purpose built indoor railway-room in a lined roof space with a Velux window in one end. This is 11ft 6inch x 7ft 6inch with the door in one corner. Initially this had son's OO gauge line in it along with my small O-16.5 n.g. terminus to fiddle yard line, but now that I have the whole space to myself it contains a coarse scale "Deliberately Old-fashioned" "O" gauge double-track layout set 52 inches above floor - as shown here;

 

 

 

 

 

All a little bit tight as the ruling curve radius is 27 inches - but it gives me enjoyment - although an extra 1.5 feet in each direction would be very welcome. I wouldn't change the arragement of the layout much - but it would allow for slightly longer trains.

 

Just remember to make sure you don't take on too much - it then has the danger of becoming a chore. I must admit that the thought of a Gauge 1 line in that garden does attract - but I'm glad I have an indoor space and layout when the weather is cold and wet.

 

Regards

Chris H

Edited February 8, 2021 by Metropolitan H

[Donw]

On 08/02/2021 at 17:59, Metropolitan H said:

What a fascinating thread. I am left wondering whether your main problem is almost being "Spoilt for choice" and having too much space and too many options.

 

Mrs. H and I have been resident in this house for 42 years, but I have always known that my layout options were constrained / limited. Despite that I have:

 

- A small 45mm "G" scale garden line with continuous run, in a space about 20 feet x 14 feet, which has a minimum curve radius of 4 feet and a maximum of about 7 feet - so I rely on LGB (and other makes) of 1:22.5 scale models of Swiss metre gauge stock, "OR" 1:19 scale models of Welshpool & Llanfair or similar sized UK n.g. prototype stock. This line has been present for about 35 years - despite having been lifted and relaid a couple of times - to basically the same design.

 

AND,

- A purpose built indoor railway-room in a lined roof space with a Velux window in one end. This is 11ft 6inch x 7ft 6inch with the door in one corner. Initially this had son's OO gauge line in it along with my small O-16.5 n.g. terminus to fiddle yard line, but now that I have the whole space to myself it contains a coarse scale "Deliberately Old-fashioned" "O" gauge double-track layout set 52 inches above floor - as shown here;

 

 

 

 

 

All a little bit tight as the ruling curve radius is 27 inches - but it gives me enjoyment - although an extra 1.5 feet in each direction would be very welcome. I wouldn't change the arragement of the layout much - but it would allow for slightly longer trains.

 

Just remember to make sure you don't take on too much - it then has the danger of becoming a chore. I must admit that the thought of a Gauge 1 line in that garden does attract - but I'm glad I have an indoor space and layout when the weather is cold and wet.

 

Regards

Chris H

 

That looks delightful Chris and scenics could be added if you wish. As for the extra 1.5ft  just remember any layout that couldn't use a bit of extra space is almost certainly just too big!.  

[Metropolitan H]

Don,

 

Many thanks. "Deliberately retro-modelling" style scenics will follow the completion of wiring and screwing down of the last area of track (the lifting flap). However, the scenery will be very much of the "Urban" or "Built environment variety" with very little in the way of vegetation!

 

Regards

Chris H

[Lacathedrale]

I can't really say for sure, but I do think I've gone off the whole 'scenic modelling' thing in favour of representational or stylised impressionism. My eyes just glaze over when there are acres of static grass or rock castings, as finely done as they are. Maybe that is why I'm attracted to Unitrack (and to tinplate 0 gauge sectional track) - it's half system diagram, half railway. One thing that's an absolute must on a model railway for me is going to be working signals and interlocking, I reckon!

[Nearholmer]

Are you an engineer or software person at all?

 

I'm sure some people look at a railway and see a "picture", as in looking at a painting hung on a wall, and others look at a railway and instantly see "system", even if the current field of view is only a view of a tiny part of the system through a letterbox.

 

of course, most railway enthusiasts can see it both ways, but I'm pretty certain that each of us has a bias to see it one way or the other, and then fall into broadly "Rice" or "CJF" camps.

[Lacathedrale]

I definitely leaned hard into Ricean ideals, but have come to think that with such a focus on aesthetic realism, there was a huge deficit created in operational and mechanical realism. There's a huge part of model railway heritage which has been completely been cut away - Paddington-Seagood (?) being a great example where the creator says (something like) "I would have no problem modelling a train of three carriages if that train could operate prototypically on my railway, than eight and not be able to operate at all", and where designs were meant to facilitate railways rather than just glorified dioramas. I look at those early layouts and see the common heritage with our American colleagues and it's plain there was a common ground and two strongly divergent evolutions.

 

Maybe this is another surfacing of the desire for a 'system layout' as discussed earlier?

[Zomboid]

3 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

"I would have no problem modelling a train of three carriages if that train could operate prototypically on my railway, than eight and not be able to operate at all",

That's very much my view on life - I can look at pictures or go to an actual railway for photorealism, but on a model it's (almost) all about operation. Both would be nice, but beyond about 4 (passenger) carriages, trains wouldn't get any more interesting to operate for me, and 2 or 3 would be fine.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean a system layout, though that is something that would tick that box. A well designed BLT could enable meaningful operation, as could a Minories type layout. It's just a design criteria.