Rapido dangles 3mm rolling stock carrot.

[whart57]

42 minutes ago, NCB said:

Think you're wrong about the Mk. 1 coach. At the moment the only RTR coaches are old Triang, which are of variable quality and very crude by modern standards. A top quality Mk.1 would enable modellers to upgrade their stock in a moment and I think would sell in droves; people would buy rakes of them.

 

You might think so. However how many existing 3mm scale modellers would be interested in such an upgrade? We are talking of people who are happy to have a small girder hanging on the ends of their rolling stock. Are they so offended by the shortcomings of Triang that they will spend a lot of money on replacing them? Modellers like yourself would but are you sure you do not represent a minority?

 

The other way of looking at it might be that if a good RTR item that was clearly different to what went before became available that more would find an excuse to buy one and run one.

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, NCB said:

There have been successful crowd-funded projects within the 3mm Society. One example was the fine scale chairs, and fine scale track bases in 14.2mm and 13.5mm gauges.

 

Thank you for confirming that what I said was correct, while at the same time reminding me to be extremely clear with my statement given how people will misinterpret things.

 

So no, there have been no successful crowd-funded RTR rolling stock in 3mm (which is after all what this thread is about - not kits) - while your examples are nice they are nowhere near the same thing as coming up with $100k+ for RTR rolling stock.

[Robert Shrives]

This evening I painted the roof on my 3D print 158 on 3mm scale and in my "slightly started pile are around a dozen Mk1s, emus, dmus  and a Blue Pullman kit - all the work of Worsely Works. All aids to modelling and with excellent castings from the Bruce Hoyle hand available in the Shop it is more than easy to make a good stab at stock and now diesels on mass from Lincoln works - chassis can be based around Triang bits as Silver fox has done but 20 years ago the society introduced a range of chassis kits - centre motored  and they make up well. 

 

Despite some comments the scale is alive and well. But you do need a modelling bent and that is what has made it attractive to roundly a 1000 souls in the UK. Jason is kindly working with the society towards an enhancement, much in the way EGMS and Peco found common ground for its members.  

 

After early shift my pleasure was adding Railtec 3mm scale transfers to airbraked VAA VAB wagons - kits from the society and Steve at Railtec has helped with transfers and has around 60 items in the range.   I really enjoy working on models and my failing eyesight does mean I can do more in 3 than I can in 2mm, much in the way converts from 4 to 7 have found !    

 

I think if folk have enjoyed an exposure to the scale to check out the society and its website along with the 3mm build pages and the excellent tread on TT3 - the next big thing.- a thread on going for several years under the radar of many !  Life is far from perfect but I like my little world, at least my little trains run on time !   

[NCB]

2 hours ago, Grovenor said:

I don't see "A Mk1 coach" being of much use, they run in trains, and not trains of 6 identical coaches. A state of the art coach will show up any others its coupled to, so a range of at least 3 varieties is needed from the outset with more promised if you are going to get buy in from everyone. Do all 3 mm Society members model the BR period anyway?

 

An advantage of the Mk. 1 coach is the standardisation. If you're going to produce 1 type then you might as well allow for producing others. Producing more types would be only a moderate increase in costs and you're likely to sell more of them. A brake-third and a composite would be an excellent start.

Edited April 3, 2021 by NCB

[NCB]

2 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

You might think so. However how many existing 3mm scale modellers would be interested in such an upgrade? We are talking of people who are happy to have a small girder hanging on the ends of their rolling stock. Are they so offended by the shortcomings of Triang that they will spend a lot of money on replacing them? Modellers like yourself would but are you sure you do not represent a minority?

 

The other way of looking at it might be that if a good RTR item that was clearly different to what went before became available that more would find an excuse to buy one and run one.

 

The people Rapido sell models to in 00 seem to be happy enough with a small girder hanging off the ends of their stock. What's the difference?

[NCB]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

 

Thank you for confirming that what I said was correct, while at the same time reminding me to be extremely clear with my statement given how people will misinterpret things.

 

So no, there have been no successful crowd-funded RTR rolling stock in 3mm (which is after all what this thread is about - not kits) - while your examples are nice they are nowhere near the same thing as coming up with $100k+ for RTR rolling stock.

 

But they are examples of people getting together to finance things. Rapido have come up with a proposal for the 3mm Society to investigate. I think it's worthwhile seeing what the Society and its members make of it. I think the proposal itself is excellent; let's see how the sums add up.

[Ravenser]

41 minutes ago, NCB said:

 

An advantage of the Mk. 1 coach is the standardisation. If you're going to produce 1 type then you might as well allow for producing others. Producing more types would be only a moderate increase in costs and you're likely to sell more of them. A brake-third and a composite would be an excellent start.

 

Those were done by Triang and Kitmaster. A BCK wasn't, and offers a one coach train or through portion, and the SK/TSO (same body shell, different roof vents + interior) were by far the commonest type of Mk1. Kitmaster did the SK, a very long time ago, without interiors, but the stocks of Kitmaster vehicles left must be very limited now, and any BR modeller can use more SKs and TSOs

 

Hence my suggestion of BCK and SK/TSO as an initial range

Edited April 3, 2021 by Ravenser

[NCB]

3 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

Those were done by Triang and Kitmaster. A BCK wasn't, and offers a one coach train, and the SK/TSO (same body shell, different roof vents + interior) were by far the commonest type of Mk1. Kitmaster did the SK, a very long time ago, without interiors, but the stocks of Kitmaster vehicles left must be very limited now, and any BR modeller can use more SKs and TSOs

 

Hence my suggestion of BCK and SK/TSO as an initial range

 

You may well be right. I'm only just getting into Mk.1 coaches   (After my usual period, but I have some Kitmasters and was wondering about 3D printing interiors for them).  But essentially, something which offers a brake bit plus the two classes, whatever the precise arrangement.

[Ravenser]

2 minutes ago, NCB said:

 

You may well be right. I'm only just getting into Mk.1 coaches   (After my usual period, but I have some Kitmasters and was wondering about 3D printing interiors for them).  But essentially, something which offers a brake bit plus the two classes, whatever the precise arrangement.

 

BSK was done by Triang and Kitmaster, so something different would be good. BFKs were only introduced late (1959 I think) . The other option is BSO but they weren't common - most of them were ER and the WR kept theirs in excursion sets. I don't really think other regions had them, and they went rather earlier than the other brakes, even the ones converted to BSO(T)

 

Hence a 5 compartment BCK could be a good bet. 

 

I notice there are no Grouping or BR vehicles in the Society list, 3SMR have a few LMS coach kits, and otherwise you're talking Worsley scratch aids . Though using etched sides on a donor vehicle is a recognised technique in  4mm. To be honest I would regard Worsley's offerings as above my level though I might manage the 3SMR LMS kits, and that would currently leave me scrabbling around trying to source some vintage Kitmasters if I was building a layout and needed coaches. And I would probably be tied to maroon , as I stand a good chance of doing that to a decent standard.

 

Panelled Gresley coaches seem to be a notable absentee from the ranges, and might be a possible target for Rapido, though they would be less saleable than Mk1s

 

Coaches do seem to be a relative weak point in 3mm support, so they look a good place for Rapido to target

[NCB]

14 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

BSK was done by Triang and Kitmaster, so something different would be good. BFKs were only introduced late (1959 I think) . The other option is BSO but they weren't common - most of them were ER and the WR kept theirs in excursion sets. I don't really think other regions had them, and they went rather earlier than the other brakes, even the ones converted to BSO(T)

 

Hence a 5 compartment BCK could be a good bet. 

 

I notice there are no Grouping or BR vehicles in the Society list, 3SMR have a few LMS coach kits, and otherwise you're talking Worsley scratch aids . Though using etched sides on a donor vehicle is a recognised technique in  4mm. To be honest I would regard Worsley's offerings as above my level though I might manage the 3SMR LMS kits, and that would currently leave me scrabbling around trying to source some vintage Kitmasters if I was building a layout and needed coaches. And I would probably be tied to maroon , as I stand a good chance of doing that to a decent standard.

 

Panelled Gresley coaches seem to be a notable absentee from the ranges, and might be a possible target for Rapido, though they would be less saleable than Mk1s

 

Coaches do seem to be a relative weak point in 3mm support, so they look a good place for Rapido to target

 

You're right, coaches are a weak point. Even for kits. The Society used to do a plastic B set kit which was OK if not great, and very useful. It was good for providing a 57' shell onto which to stick Worsley etched coach sides; here's my GWR toplight so built:

 

I've built the odd Worsley kit but they do take quite a lot of time. Thought of etching my own but haven't got around to it yet.

 

I think in 3mm it's possible to get some accurate highly detailed rolling stock, and I'd really like to see what Rapido could do.

Edited April 4, 2021 by NCB

[Robert Shrives]

Worsley coach kits - scratch aids are not that difficult.  Built in the Comet style with ends inside the sides at the end and a nut holding plate across inside ends, Aluminium roof section to trim/ file to fit - evostic or two part epoxy to fit.  Chassis folds up and has two strips to solder on along with bufferbeams, The Truss is a bit more involved but not to bad with a strip that locates in a notch and folds down to the solebar.  then up to you for details as many I have seen await handles and commodes grabs - Try a 4 vep 90 odd handles required! 

 

At an N show (TINGS) I watched Allen fold  solder up a freightliner chassis while talking to the crowd - just dabs of solder no seam soldering  and in under 15 minutes produced a chassis ready for sorting bogie mounts. Allen was speechless when somebody who had watched then said that was to hard for him.  You never know everybody`s issues and we are all different but worth a go and I am sure you could well be pleased you did.  

I am certain Allen would sell you the bits you want but you could use an etch side upon or instead of a Kitmaster side. File off roof vent bumps on the Kitmaster roof and add new however, currently due to Covid 19 the Society casting elves have not been able fire up the kit so castings are low or out of stock so a little wait to finish off current models but as it is a hobby no rush.   I have built several cut and shunts with kitmaster sides so have bits to hand, and at times the Society shop has part or poor build bargains, Ebay also offers examples.

 

While I have upwards of 36 bodies built I take about an hour from opening pack to having got to the point of washing off flux and allowing it to dry, and still have finger prints !

 

I look forward to coaches from Rapido  as well  Brake and two corridor as a three pack has been my suggestion- a train in a  box.  Maroon, blue grey and for my friends Choc and cream!  I have to admit I had to look at the Parkin coach book to look at build sizes and agree the BCK offers the best branch train option but I was after a BSO to do the  BSOT conversion.        

 

http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/      3mm coach range offers eaxmples ftom - cut and pasted from Allen`s site.

The Mk1 coach range as 15 vehicle types available. 

Furness Railway
Great Eastern Railway
Great Central Railway 
Great North of Scotland Railway
Great Western Railway
Irish Railways
Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway
London Midland and Scottish 
London North Eastern Railway 
London North Western Railway
London Tilbury and Southend Railway 
Midland Railway
Metropolitan Railway
North Staffs Railway 
The Pullman Company 
Southern Railway 
Southern Railway/Southern Region
Electrical Multiple Units 
Diesel/Electric Multiple Units 
Gatwick Express 
British Railways
Mark 1 Coaches
Mark 2 Coaches
Mark 3 Coaches / Inter-City 125
First Generation (Heritage) Diesel Multiple Units
Second Generation Diesel Multiple Units 

[whart57]

I'm afraid I have to say that the idea of a RTR mineral wagon leaves me cold, and I struggle to get excited by the thought of some RTR Mk1 coaches. Looking at Rapido's eye-catching "Titfield Thunderbolt" pitch - which I trust was not a exasperating April 1st gag - the company does have an eye for the splash. But inside the pitch are three things that have a high potential for sales, namely the Toad, the Wisbech and Upwell coach and, of course, the Titfield Thunderbolt itself - aka Lion. If the latter appears I will have a tussle between my fondness for 19th century steam and my lukewarm sentiments towards OO gauge to resolve.

 

I can't think of anything that would create as much "splash" in 3mm scale, or even as much as the Hunslet industrial Rapido are releasing in 4mm scale.

[NCB]

I too am unexcited about a mineral wagon. There are plenty of kits available, they're easy to build and not that exciting.

 

I'd go for something more distinctive and less easy to build well, but fairly common, namely a tank wagon. Say a petrol wagon from around 1938/39. Looks good, plenty of livery options, ran in multiples, and one of the more challenging things to do well from a kit. Or a 6-wheel milk tanker. There is a recent Society kit, but having had a look at it I am unenthusiastic about trying it.

[MartinWales]

On 01/04/2021 at 19:05, adb968008 said:

 

given TT is still active in Europe, choosing a prototype that works in Europe as well as the UK might widen the door commercially.

Something like a class 66 would seem the obvious bet for TT gauge.

it appeals to several European countries, they are active on many routes and countries.

 

moving the needle, class 58 worked in several western countries, Class 92 also has toured about Eastern European countries a bit, and Chunnel.

 

i’m sure UK modellers may like a TT class 37.. they didnt really go into service in Europe outside of HS construction.

 

But a TT 66 would fit European stock & European market immediately, and obviously provide that feed into establishing if there is a modern UK TT market, whilst reducing the financial risk.

 

if it were steam.. a WD or an S160 comes to mind, or a humble J94... again it appeals to an established European market, as well as testing a new UK potential market... S160 may even appeal to US TT modellers.

 

 

UK 3mm =1:100, continental = 1:120

[Taigatrommel]

Just a quick note to add a clarification:  the 1:120 class 66 never got produced and was dropped without any comment by Lemke.

[Taigatrommel]

Some further comments which are honesty the realms of fantasy, but I'll say them anyway as I follow the European 1:120 TT market...

 

Rapido's product suggestion is related to a tie-in with the 3mm Scale Society - as such, it's pretty well unrelated to 1:120 products, I recognise this and what follows is purely my own daydreaming.  I have huge admiration for the skills and creativity that I've seen from 3mm scale modellers, so I'd also like to make clear that my view of 1:120 as the way forward is not a case of me having anything against them!

 

If I were to be launching British TT now, it would be 1:120 scale following a particular path to take advantage of existing markets and gain income before the risky step of UK only items.  The class 66 is the obvious opener to me, having a noticable presence in Germany (the largest market) and Poland (also a TT market- see MTBs range for example).  I would accompany it with suitable wagons that run in Britain and on the continent, eg a car carrier or container wagon.  That gives you your initial train packs.  The follow on would be a class 86, as Hungary has 86s and some TT market (see Deak Modellsport for example), though not as much as Germany or Czechia/Slovakia.  There's quite a range of ferrywagons that could be added to this imaginary range before UK specific types get added.  A class 56 is a final loco type that offers genuine scope for transnational sales before UK specific models are considered.  As an income gaining add-on, 1990s onwards road vehicles are seriously lacking in 1:120 scale.  I'd probably start with a Skoda Octavia, but the choices are wide open.

 

Corgi produced 1:120 scale static models of various steam locos.  A mk1 could make a nice accompaniment for any of the ones that appeared in BR liveries.  They could also sit well with an 86, and as railtour stock behind a 66 or 56.  Now one has an income stream and a UK specific item of rolling stock, it's time to try a UK only loco.  Well, it's the 47.  I'm not sure this choice needs expanding upon!  With the 66, 86, 56, wagons and mk1 coaches supporting, if the 47 flops (other than from making a hash of it!), well, it's probably not worth pursuing the scale further.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Taigatrommel

[Ravenser]

12 hours ago, Taigatrommel said:

Just a quick note to add a clarification:  the 1:120 class 66 never got produced and was dropped without any comment by Lemke.

 

 

Open goal for Hornby -Arnold, then...

 

If I was modellin g the Continent , I'd definitely be tempted to go TT for the hell of it - easier to make things than in N. But such overseas interests as I have are French and New South Wales, so there's no TT support.

 

There's no reason why Hornby couldn't pursue the line you suggest for your imaginary 1:120 range - if it is really commercially viable. Our container wagons are homegrown , but intermodal wagons (ie swap bodies) and some ferrywagons would be a credible offer. Have the big bogie hopper types been used by Freightliner in Eastern Europe? All of that could strengthen their current very small TT range . (I note they actually do a 1930s-60s refridgerated ferrywagon)

 

I don't see any of this having an impact on British outline though

 

And I'd have thought an 08 or J94 would b e a more useful loco than a 47. Your list omits anything small, and N is reckoned to be less than ideal when it comes to shunting wagons.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Ravenser

[luke_stevens]

15 hours ago, Taigatrommel said:

Just a quick note to add a clarification:  the 1:120 class 66 never got produced and was dropped without any comment by Lemke.

No wonder I couldn't find any photos! I wonder how far the tooling got (or didn't)...

Luke

[NCB]

British HO has never been a goer and I suspect the same is true of British 1:120. TT3 has the advantage that there's an existing ecosystem, quite a large one really if you're prepared to build stuff yourself.

 

Don't get me wrong. I have a couple of the Corgi 1:120 static models and think they're superb. British 120 could work but only if a manufacturer was prepared to invest a lot to create that ecosystem. The revival of O Gauge RTR happened because the manufacturers in question were selling into an existing ecosystem. With TT3, if a manufacturer was prepared to invest into producing even a few coaches/locos it could give things a big kick-start. But I think they need to aim for attracting new users and not just 3mm Society members.

[Taigatrommel]

As it's over 55 years since Tri-ang ceased TT production, I'd say any ecosystem is entirely based around kit and scratch building!  This is what makes me admire the 3mm modellers so much.

 

My suggestions were entirely based around taking advantage of an existing ecosystem including such important features as track, even if not British, to offer a probable lower risk entry than having to invest in a small range of 3mm scale models to kick start interest.  Of course, Rapido securing pre-orders for a single tooling via membership of a society is not risky, but may only stimulate a small number of new entrants to the scale.

 

Personally, I'm not convinced either 3mm scale or 1:120 would be a great money spinner given how few sales even N has relative to 00, hence hypothetically seeking revenue from beyond our isles to start!

Edited April 5, 2021 by Taigatrommel
speling mistooks

[NCB]

There is still a healthy Triang TT based contingent in that TT-3 ecosystem. RTR may be second-hand but it still exists and quite  a proportion of the 3mm Society members, plus quite a few non-members, are into it. Triang stuff lasts!

[bradfordbuffer]

Who rattled the 3mm cage?

For clarity

1. I am a member of 3mm society 

2. I model to a scale of 1:101ish

3. I prefer the track gauge of 14.2mm ish!

4.my interests are 1980s to present day (but do like a bit of late steam early dirty diesels)

So my cards are on the table and clearly visible. 

 

With the healthy? Discussion so far I'm not surprised the maple leaf boys aren't looking on S gauge web sight! For smother waters

 

3mm web sight clearly states 'helping 3mm scale' so that's 1:101and a bit not 1:120! rapido says 3mm scale! So the debate for scale of new coach is over what?

 

I would personally buy a few short rakes 4 to 6 long if full range....but will the triang tt boys? ...bearing in mind rapido dont do looks like a mk1...thay are fine fidelity it will be spot on but it wont be 5quid a coach! (I will pay for quality )

 

I do hope range comes off but time will tell...

 

For a coach first produced in 1951 and still in use I would of thought this should of been a priorty society project! How about a 3d one piece coach and separate underframe to glue a etched side to (sides available already)  even if society has to pay for a commission to create drawing (ask Simon mr blue on this forum...his works is stunning) and farm printing out to larger scale printers so sales team members aren't lumbered batch printing ? This will speed construction from purely etched bits...so speed up the purchase of next kit..

 

To convince modelers to the dark side....3mm! got to have quality bits to make it achievable....not things if you squint looks like a 'xx' who would have a jinty with 4 wheels and a tender.

I dont want rattle the box and play..that wouldn't be 3mm.. ..but I would like all the bits available to finish the model with the right number of windows at the right length and correct number of wheels...and a reasonable chance of finishing with moderate skill!

3mm must keep up with the other scales and a high level of fidelity or it will fizzle out, not the most popular comments but my opinion...ps I love to see a triang tt layout at shows...high speeds and warm oil...bliss.

After rant....

1:101 scale Mk1 please...I'll change my own wheels..

 

 

Edit...if you a modeler that is happy to squint at your models and are sort of the odd window or too many wheels...that's fine I can squint with you! It's a hobby with a broad church!

 

 

Just dont count the windows!

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by bradfordbuffer
Addition to squinters

[NCB]

On 11/04/2021 at 21:45, bradfordbuffer said:

Who rattled the 3mm cage?

For clarity

1. I am a member of 3mm society 

2. I model to a scale of 1:101ish

3. I prefer the track gauge of 14.2mm ish!

4.my interests are 1980s to present day (but do like a bit of late steam early dirty diesels)

So my cards are on the table and clearly visible. 

 

With the healthy? Discussion so far I'm not surprised the maple leaf boys aren't looking on S gauge web sight! For smother waters

 

3mm web sight clearly states 'helping 3mm scale' so that's 1:101and a bit not 1:120! rapido says 3mm scale! So the debate for scale of new coach is over what?

 

I would personally buy a few short rakes 4 to 6 long if full range....but will the triang tt boys? ...bearing in mind rapido dont do looks like a mk1...thay are fine fidelity it will be spot on but it wont be 5quid a coach! (I will pay for quality )

 

I do hope range comes off but time will tell...

 

For a coach first produced in 1951 and still in use I would of thought this should of been a priorty society project! How about a 3d one piece coach and separate underframe to glue a etched side to (sides available already)  even if society has to pay for a commission to create drawing (ask Simon mr blue on this forum...his works is stunning) and farm printing out to larger scale printers so sales team members aren't lumbered batch printing ? This will speed construction from purely etched bits...so speed up the purchase of next kit..

 

To convince modelers to the dark side....3mm! got to have quality bits to make it achievable....not things if you squint looks like a 'xx' who would have a jinty with 4 wheels and a tender.

I dont want rattle the box and play..that wouldn't be 3mm.. ..but I would like all the bits available to finish the model with the right number of windows at the right length and correct number of wheels...and a reasonable chance of finishing with moderate skill!

3mm must keep up with the other scales and a high level of fidelity or it will fizzle out, not the most popular comments but my opinion...ps I love to see a triang tt layout at shows...high speeds and warm oil...bliss.

After rant....

1:101 scale Mk1 please...I'll change my own wheels..

 

 

Edit...if you a modeler that is happy to squint at your models and are sort of the odd window or too many wheels...that's fine I can squint with you! It's a hobby with a broad church!

 

 

Just dont count the windows!

 

 

I'm with you on this one. Any new 3mm RTR needs to be to modern standards. And  it's a great scale for that; to me fine scale 3mm looks so much better than N fine scale.  Obviously it will have a price to match.

 

Nigel

[mdvle]

On 01/04/2021 at 19:00, luke_stevens said:

The problem is: TT 1/120 or TT3 1/101?

 

I'm sure there is  market for a Cl66 in 1/120, as I am sure there is a market for a 16t mineral or Mk1 in 1/101.

 

I know that in the past Simon Kohler spoke about having previously wanted to (re)introduce British TT at 1/120.

 

If Rapido do make the move then which way do the go?

 

And we now have an answer if Rapido is still interested - it is TT 1/120 with track from Peco and a RTR Class 31 from Heljan and assorted other items coming.

[woodenhead]

@mdvle What have you done, you've opened another TT 1:120 front - we already have two threads that are mainly arguing discussing the merits of various scales, prospective models and who would do what.

 

Whilst there are some models / track in there, it is mainly speculative commentary.

 

How many speculative threads on this subject do we need going, they just end up repeating themselves.