Hornby Sir Dinadan

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, GoingUnderground said:

Looking through the Triang/Hornby Railways catalogues from 1957 to 1980, it is clear that there was a shift of emphasis around the end of the 1960s. The early catalogues show very few pictures of children, it's all about showing the range to its best advantage

 

Then around the time of the Dunbee-Combex-Marx acquisition of Rovex the emphasis changed more towards the models as "toys". Not too surprising as my memories of Marx toys are of cheap and nasty looking tinplate marked "Empire Made" (meaning Hong Kong). There are far more pictures of kids in the 1970s catalogues and the models are more garish and highly coloured, lots of use of primary colours. Whether that was the DCM influence or just a coincidence is open to speculation, but it is obvious that Rovex and its new masters still saw children as their main target market, a market where price mattered more than realism. So, to my way of thinking "Sir Dinadan" in 1976, fitted in with that thinking. As has already been said in this thread, the team at Rovex probably were trying to tread a delicate path between recruiting kids into the hobby and keeping their original customer base who were now adults, with potentially deeper pockets than schookids, who had moved on to want more realistic models happy, and meeting whatever targets DCM had set for them. Unfortunately "Sir Dinadan" just wasn't good enough for the adults, but from the comments on here it kept the kids happy.

 

Would Rovex have spotted the trend away from toys and towards scale models for adults sooner if Lines Bros hadn't gone bust and DCM acquired Rovex? Possibly, or possibly not, as it was at heart a toy company and toys are intended for kids, and it can be hard to leave what you know. But I think they might have, and the indications are Richard Lines's comments about the origins of "Evening Star" where he said that he wanted a more realistic model.

Yes, the DCM era was about shifting the range towards toy shops - gloss lacquer, bright red plastic buildings, shiny nickel plated wheels, colourful pre-nationalisation liveries were all about getting Gran or Auntie to pick something out on the shelves. According to the various histories of the company it was very successful in the early to mid 70s, with the range having to be reduced in 1974/75 to ensure that the most popular items could be kept supplied (no doubt also related to the three-day-week and industrial strife at the time). It was the almost simultaneous launch by Airfix and by Mainline (Palitoy) of their own ranges in 1976 which began to shift things. They wanted a slice of this market but calculated that by making the models more accurate (and sourcing production from Hong Kong) they could match on price whilst simultaneously satisfying other markets better such as scale modellers. 
The toy market is very capricious, like fashion, and when pretty much the entire world of traditional toys (kits, slot cars, trains, board games) was eclipsed almost overnight by computer games, Star Wars, Transformers etc) that scale model market became the new centre of gravity - much lower volumes but much higher prices if you got it right. Hornby pretty much struggled through the 1980s and early 1990s and their inflection point was the move of production to China, acquisition of the non-Kader Airfix tools (via Dapol) and then the launch of Clan Line and beyond.

Edited May 26, 2021 by andyman7

[cypherman]

1 hour ago, andyman7 said:

Yes, the DCM era was about shifting the range towards toy shops - gloss lacquer, bright red plastic buildings, shiny nickel plated wheels, colourful pre-nationalisation liveries were all about getting Gran or Auntie to pick something out on the shelves. According to the various histories of the company it was very successful in the early to mid 70s, with the range having to be reduced in 1974/75 to ensure that the most popular items could be kept supplied (no doubt also related to the three-day-week and industrial strife at the time). It was the almost simultaneous launch by Airfix and by Mainline (Palitoy) of their own ranges in 1976 which began to shift things. They wanted a slice of this market but calculated that by making the models more accurate (and sourcing production from Hong Kong) they could match on price whilst simultaneously satisfying other markets better such as scale modellers. 
The toy market is very capricious, like fashion, and when pretty much the entire world of traditional toys (kits, slot cars, trains, board games) was eclipsed almost overnight by computer games, Star Wars, Transformers etc) that scale model market became the new centre of gravity - much lower volumes but much higher prices if you got it right. Hornby pretty much struggled through the 1980s and early 1990s and their inflection point was the move of production to China, acquisition of the non-Kader Airfix tools (via Dapol) and then the launch of Clan Line and beyond.

This would explain the bloody awful Hall class Lord Westwood in bright red.

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, cypherman said:

This would explain the bloody awful Hall class Lord Westwood in bright red.

Don't forget it's little brother, the bright red 0-4-0 with a plated dome. The running numbers for each were the two Margate telephone numbers used by the company.

[GoingUnderground]

3 hours ago, andyman7 said:

Don't forget it's little brother, the bright red 0-4-0 with a plated dome. The running numbers for each were the two Margate telephone numbers used by the company.

The telephone number 25550 running number "little brother", R.455 came in two versions, (ignoring the original red "Polly" R.355R), one with the silver version of the "Lord of the Isles" dome and one without. There is said to be a third version with the brass dome from the "Lord of the Isles" fitted in error, but these are rare to put it mildly, and probably easy to fake if you have a silver-domed one and the brass dome off a donor "Lord".

 

As an industrial loco the red colour scheme was less bizarre than "Lord Westwood", no one seems to have objected too much to "Polly" over the years, but the silver dome??? It's cute and gives the loco even more of a personality, but was a bit out of place on such a small loco.

 

But the 0-4-0T shares a lot with "Sir Dinadan", arguably being a Drummond/Urie C14, without the outside cylinders and valve gear, stretched to fit on the R.252/254 0-4-0 steeplecab chassis. There's yet another potential project, doing a "cut'n'shut" on an R.255/355/455 body and chassis to bring it closer to the C14 original, like the trial loco "Katy" that Hornby produced. (I must resist - I must resist, I must resist..............)

Edited May 26, 2021 by GoingUnderground

[Ruffnut Thorston]

9 hours ago, David_Belcher said:

It must be one of the few from that mid-70s era of Margate, along with the Ivatt 2MT, not to get a revamp/second chance. The J83 made a comeback on a better chassis, whilst the L1-derived Fowler 2P was the basis for Edward in the 'Thomas' range, I believe (just as James was a stretched-out 3F).

 

I guess the vastly superior Schools must have rendered it utterly obsolete as Hornby's "Southern passenger loco for layouts too small for a Light Pacific" option.

 

David

The L1 tools, modified to make the 2P, were not used for Edward.

 

Edward was made from the LNER Shire 4-4-0 tools, which had been modified to represent the Lentz valve gear version of the Shire, the Hunt Class.

(Though the chassis remained a Shire, with Walschearts valve gear.)

 

Like most Hornby Thomas locos, Edward has the tender drive Schools derived tender...

 

Edward neatly avoids the valve gear problem....

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston
Typo...added photos

[David_Belcher]

13 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

The L1 tools, modified to make the 2P, were not used for Edward.

 

Edward was made from the LNER Shire 4-4-0 tools, which had been modified to represent the Lentz valve gear version of the Shire, the Hunt Class.

(Though the chassis remained a Shire, with Walschearts valve gear.)

 

Like most Hornby Thomas locos, Edward has the tender drive Schools derived tender...

 

Edward neatly avoids the valve gear problem....

 

Thanks for the clarification. Must have confused it with the James/3F example.

 

David

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Yes, James was made from the old R.251 Deeley M.R. 0-6-0 tender loco.
 

The smokebox and front footplate were extended, and a different chassis was used, with a front pony truck, to make a 2-6-0 tender drive loco, using the ex Schools tender drive unit.

 

[Il Grifone]

As  a child I always wondered why James had inside cylinders, but I gather he is based on an obscure prototype from the mainland.

 

Even Trix managed to get the valvegear on their 'Hunt' right. Well sort of....

[Il Grifone]

James originally was one of these:

https://www.google.com/search?q=g%26swr+class+403&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk01x5xtwhNzqRDaSkNfFycmYKq3DQQ:1622301220719&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiC2Or_lu_wAhUIPewKHa-TAEEQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1296&bih=666

 

Later changed to a (ficticious) rebuild of a L&Y 0-6-0. Apparently these were nose heavy and a pony truck was added in an attempt to cure. The LMS unloaded it as soon as possible!

Sodor seems to be full of surplus failures. Henry was sent To Crewe to be rebuilt into a facsimile of a Black 5 for example.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Well if all goes to plan by this time tomorrow I will have another Sir Dinadan to play with. i was thinking early BR green, Not sure if it will be with or without lining.

[Hroth]

On 26/05/2021 at 21:04, Ruffnut Thorston said:

 

Edward was made from the LNER Shire 4-4-0 tools, which had been modified to represent the Lentz valve gear version of the Shire, the Hunt Class.

(Though the chassis remained a Shire, with Walschearts valve gear.)

 

 

 

Edward would be ok(ish) if he didn't have a drainpipe substituted for his chimney.  He would also look a bit better if Hornby had had the wit to substitute a simple plastic moulding for the missing cylinder block!

 

As for Sir DinnerDinner, I've been toying with the idea of getting one to make into a faux S15, it would go nicely with my own original Sir DD!

 

[kernowtim]

The Ace trains O gauge King Arthur was available as Sir Dinaden, did briefly consider getting one, however it didn't look much like the Hornby one I bought new over 30 years ago!

[Il Grifone]

Perhaps because the Ace Trains model does actually look like a 'King Arthur'?

 

Hornby's has only a passing resemblance. It's more like an S15 (if fitted with smaller wheels), but still only approximate. I was going to convert mine, but decided it wasn't worth the trouble.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Well I got the Sir Dinadan. Just waiting for it to arrive. Looks in good physical shape. Just needs a service and a repaint. Plus the usual bits and pieces. Still not sure what colour scheme to paint it in. I already had a tender for this engine so I was not bothered that it did not have one. Especially at the price I paid. More to come on this project. It is about 4th inline to be done......

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Well here is number 6 very nearly finished.

1 Full service.

2 Full re repaint including the tender I supplied. The original repaint was not very well done as can be seen for my earlier pictures above with large areas of the original green body still being visible. especially under the engine.

3 fitted all the usual addons:

coupling hooks,

Vacuum pipes 

Lamp Brackets

4 Got rid of the awful tender drawbar that Hornby fitted and made a closer coupling one from brass. reduced the size of the footplate to fit.

5 Added lamps and set up as a fast freight engine.

6 Fitted some crew in the cabin( Must admit the driver appears to be about 6ft 6ins tall).

7 Made the whistle and 2 what I think are pressure relief valves on the front of the boiler as the engine did not come with them.

I have taken some liberties with the tender. It is now nearer the correct length rather than the short one that comes with the original engine. The chassis is from a West Country class engine and the body is from a Schools class.

Hand rails have all been chromed using a chrome pen. Makes them all nice and shiny. just is this engine has just been out shopped after a major service. Which is the look I wanted. I have enough heavily weathered N15's in my stable.

There are still 2 things that need doing, But I need answers about them.

1 In the later BR days did these engines still carry their name plates. In this case for the Green King.

2 did they ever run in lined black.

If the answer is yes to these questions then I will have to get these things done. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by cypherman

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Quick update. Some things do need correcting. After getting some more info that these engines never ran in lined black (Was considering lining the engine) but lined green Which is a pity. And that they were all eventually painted BR green I will have to back date this engine to just post war while it was still in it's wartime livery and early BR ownership and put the early and change to the BR cycling lion logo's on. Rather than the later ones it has on.  Time to get the cheque book out and buy some more logos.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

How about “BRITISH RAILWAYS” in SR Sunshine style?

 

Just for something a bit different? 
 

https://www.fox-transfers.co.uk/transfers/sr-british-railways-bullied-sunshine-lettering-61749

 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston
More added...

[cypherman]

50 minutes ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

How about “BRITISH RAILWAYS” in SR Sunshine style?

 

Just for something a bit different? 
 

https://www.fox-transfers.co.uk/transfers/sr-british-railways-bullied-sunshine-lettering-61749

 

 

 

 

Hi, Nice idea.

[AdamsRadial]

On 05/06/2021 at 12:14, cypherman said:

7 Made the whistle and 2 what I think are pressure relief valves on the front of the boiler as the engine did not come with them.

I think these are the snifting valves?

 

 

[PatB]

3 hours ago, AdamsRadial said:

I think these are the snifting valves?

 

 

A prominent feature on Maunsell era engines. For those who do not know what a snifting valve is, when the regulator of a steam locomotive is closed, a partial vacuum can be created in the cylinders which, in the absence of any other openings, can suck ash and other abrasive residue from the smokebox down the blastpipe. This does the cylinder bores, piston rings and valve faces no good at all. To alleviate the problem, one-way valves (snifting valves) are incorporated, which remain tightly closed under pressure, but open under vacuum, admitting fresh air to the cylinders, rather than the grinding compound that's been through the firebox, tubes and smokebox.

[Hroth]

Ok, I've now got two Sir Dinadans, my original one in gloss green and a "new" one with the matt green finish.  Before I turn one into a faux S15, which one should go to the paintshop?  Is the matt green one more "desirable", aesthetically speaking?

 

[cypherman]

Hi Hroth.

I think you need to get a 3rd one and keep the 2 original ones.....lol. I found the the matt one takes the paint better than the gloss one. The gloss seemed for me to make the paint runny if you know what I mean. But IMHO the matt one looks better. Any way I now after a final count I have found I have 7 of them.......

Edited June 22, 2021 by cypherman

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi Hroth.

I think you need to get a 3rd one and keep the 2 original ones.....lol. I found the the matt one takes the paint better than the gloss one. The gloss seemed for me to make the paint runny if you know what I mean. But IMHO the matt one looks better. Any way I now after a final count I have found I have 7 of them.......

 

 

Well, I think I'll sacrifice the glossy one.  I've got a a more recent Hornby N15 and while the matt Sir Dinadan looks as if it has been in a boil wash, dimensionally speaking, it doesn't look as incongruous as the gloss one.  A soak in a suitable paint stripper should remove the gloss, etc ready for primer and a coat of satin black.   At least with a black S15, I don't have to worry about lining it, though it'll never look like one of these...

 

Hattons image

 

Quote

Any way I now after a final count I have found I have 7 of them.......

 

Yours seem to be breeding like rabbits, hadn't you better separate them?

 

[JohnR]

When I was young, I so wanted a Sir Dinadan - I never understood why they didnt give it a more popular name?

[cypherman]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

Well, I think I'll sacrifice the glossy one.  I've got a a more recent Hornby N15 and while the matt Sir Dinadan looks as if it has been in a boil wash, dimensionally speaking, it doesn't look as incongruous as the gloss one.  A soak in a suitable paint stripper should remove the gloss, etc ready for primer and a coat of satin black.   At least with a black S15, I don't have to worry about lining it, though it'll never look like one of these...

 

Hattons image

 

 

Yours seem to be breeding like rabbits, hadn't you better separate them?

 

Hi Hroth,

I did keep one of the tenders from the Sir Dinadan. But it is really too small. I bought an 8 wheeled tender for a the Bachmann Sir Francis Drake for one i repainted and the second one here has a tender from  Schools class engine. The Schools class tender is about 1 cm longer than the one that comes with the Sir Dinadan. Well worth the extra cost. See what I mean from the pictures. Plus get rid of the awful connector for the tender and replace it with one from the Triang/Hornby Hall. I trimmed quite a bit off the footplate of the BR S15 and got it to couple up closer. Looks better. I will probably do the same at some point with 746 Pendragon.

Edited June 22, 2021 by cypherman