Do we think that we will in the future see more “separate frame” detail on rtr locos in OO?

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Hi all,

 

Something that has always moderately bugged me with rtr offerings is the often total lack of any attempt to model the separate frames of the engine, it is invariably just a solid mass with nice spring detail etc. I could see why manufactures would do this on something like Bachmann’s ex Midland 3f, where the rewards would not be terribly great. However on something like the Bachmann Midland Compound, where the front half of the frame doesn’t (appear) to serve much structural purpose, one thinks that they could have molded in some sort of separate frame detail*, the same goes for other modern 4-4-0s. A good example of this would be the Hornby Duchesses/Coronations, which do have separate frames over the front bogie. The new Rails of Sheffield D class seems like it will be a bit more of a step up in frame detail too, as it has non working inside motion.

 

*perhaps they did, I don’t own one so feel free to correct me.

 

Douglas

[The Johnster]

It comes down to how much the RTR company’s marketing people think we will pay for a model, bearing in mind that enough of us need to be persuaded to part with our beer vouchers for it to be reasonably profitable.  The trend is for more realism and accuracy; compare the 1938 Hornby Dublo A4 with it’s 1970s counterpart and then with a current model!  Then compare the prices in real terms adjusted for inflation; the current model is much better value IMHO. 
 

Current RTR is very good, not far off as good as is reasonable to expect from volume production, and only the very best scratch builders can better it, but it is compromised by the need to provide models that will run on setrack curvature, as well as the necessity to adapt to the 00 track gauge.  Separate frames could not be modelled the correct distance apart in 00.  This does not mean that they couldn’t be modelled at all, and it may be that we will see this at least partially  in the future in connection with providing working inside motion on high end RTR steam locos. 
 

This has already been done back in the 70s, incidentally, with Japanese hand built brass RTR models, but these were very expensive indeed! 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

14 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Separate frames could not be modelled the correct distance apart in 00

That explains why I’ve only seen it done above the front bogie on the Hornby Duchesses, it’s a wider gap so fools the eye. 

[kevinlms]

On 04/06/2021 at 18:37, The Johnster said:

  The trend is for more realism and accuracy; compare the 1938 Hornby Dublo A4 with it’s 1970s counterpart and then with a current model!  Then compare the prices in real terms adjusted for inflation; the current model is much better value IMHO. 
 

 

This has already been done back in the 70s, incidentally, with Japanese hand built brass RTR models, but these were very expensive indeed! 

It comes down to a couple of things. Modern models are far more automated in the design & manufacture process, which makes them cheaper, once you've set up the process.

 

Labour charges in China are still much less (but their government wants to raise this). Do people in western countries want to work the hours they do in China - almost certainly not and lets be honest, why should they? We aren't in the 1870s any more.

 

Pre-Covid at least, there was a fair bit of discussion about how the model railway factories in China, lose a significant portion of their workforce, who simply doesn't come back after Chinese New Year holiday. The missing people, presumably find employment that pays better elsewhere.

Given that, it's a wonder the models are as good as they are.

[The Johnster]

Labour costs are rising in China, and this is understandable; the China that European manufacturers outsourced to 30 years ago, with waiting lists for Flying Pigeon bicycles, has ceased to exist and it is now a modern, tech driven, society where people want cars, HD tvs, smartphones, and 2 holidays a year, much like us, and why shouldn't they?  They work hard for it and I do not resent them for wanting nice things, but it means we have to pay more for our RTR. 

 

In addition, raw material costs are rising and factory production and assembly slots are competed for, so the laws of supply and demand dictate that those costs rise as well.  The Chinese are still turning out very high quality models in volume production, and this is more wondrous when you take into account their system of sub and sub sub contracting to very small facilities, almost cottage industries, while maintaing pretty decent QC.

 

The big UK players outsourced 30 years ago for low costs and high quality, and might not do so now that Chinese costs have risen, especially since recent events have highlighted the lack of inbuilt resilience in the maritime container trade.  It is a moot point whether current European component manufacture and assembly with modern production engineering methods might equal the Chinese quality standards; we do not have much confidence in our abilities and tend to fall back on the somewhat racist viewpoint that the Chinese have nimble little fingers and a high degree of work ethic because of poverty and culture.  But the current situation is that our big players are very firmly embedded in the Chinese manufacturing and assembly system, and relocation back to Margate or Barwell is unlikely for the foreseeable future.  That said, the Covid pandemic and Ever Given have illustrated how short the foreseeable future can be!

[kevinlms]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Labour costs are rising in China, and this is understandable; the China that European manufacturers outsourced to 30 years ago, with waiting lists for Flying Pigeon bicycles, has ceased to exist and it is now a modern, tech driven, society where people want cars, HD tvs, smartphones, and 2 holidays a year, much like us, and why shouldn't they?  They work hard for it and I do not resent them for wanting nice things, but it means we have to pay more for our RTR. 

 

In addition, raw material costs are rising and factory production and assembly slots are competed for, so the laws of supply and demand dictate that those costs rise as well.  The Chinese are still turning out very high quality models in volume production, and this is more wondrous when you take into account their system of sub and sub sub contracting to very small facilities, almost cottage industries, while maintaing pretty decent QC.

 

The big UK players outsourced 30 years ago for low costs and high quality, and might not do so now that Chinese costs have risen, especially since recent events have highlighted the lack of inbuilt resilience in the maritime container trade.  It is a moot point whether current European component manufacture and assembly with modern production engineering methods might equal the Chinese quality standards; we do not have much confidence in our abilities and tend to fall back on the somewhat racist viewpoint that the Chinese have nimble little fingers and a high degree of work ethic because of poverty and culture.  But the current situation is that our big players are very firmly embedded in the Chinese manufacturing and assembly system, and relocation back to Margate or Barwell is unlikely for the foreseeable future.  That said, the Covid pandemic and Ever Given have illustrated how short the foreseeable future can be!

Regarding relocation back to Margate or wherever.

It's not that simple, given the huge expense to set up QUALITY factories, you need to be able to justify it with large production capabilities.

Not saying you need to make 1000s on a production run, but you need multiple products on the go at once, to keep the factory ticking over. Stop/Start never works, you need to be continuously producing and improving. Look at smart phone production as an example.

[The Johnster]

Quite; even if production ever does return here, it will be a recreation of the Chinese model with small factories on industrial estates taking on subcontracts to manufacture, well, whatever is wanted at the time, really, so a factory making, say, 00 loco bodies, might switch to producing bulb housings for car headlamps when the loco order is completed.  There will never be a return to Hornby making stuff at Margate or Bachmann at Barwell. 

[Wheatley]

Quite apart from the manufacturing or aesthetic practicalities of modelling open frames which should be as far apart as the rails, it would also remove a lot of solid cast weight. You would need to factor in some way of putting that somewhere else. On a small loco that impacts the space available for decoders, speakers etc. Either that or fit tr****** ty**s. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Wheatley

[Steamport Southport]

What? Like this?

 

Watch the valve gear and then consider that it's 2mm scale......

 

 

 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65499-whats-on-your-2mm-work-bench/page/98/

[kevinlms]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Quite; even if production ever does return here, it will be a recreation of the Chinese model with small factories on industrial estates taking on subcontracts to manufacture, well, whatever is wanted at the time, really, so a factory making, say, 00 loco bodies, might switch to producing bulb housings for car headlamps when the loco order is completed.  There will never be a return to Hornby making stuff at Margate or Bachmann at Barwell. 

Did Bachmann ever make anything at Barwell? I thought they were 100% imported?

[Steamport Southport]

I don't know whether Bachmann ever used it but the Palitoy factory was in Coalville about 10 miles away.

 

 

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

Palitoy Mainline and Bachmann have always been made in China; Kader owned all the tooling. Airfix GMR had models made in China;  Airfix owned the tooling. They had plans to move production to the UK but I'm not sure they were ever implemented.

 

Even in the "old days", the big UK manufacturers didn't manufacture everything themselves — ISTR that Hornby-Dublo contracted out the plastic moulding of the "SD6” wagons, for instance.

 

I often wonder whether 3-d printing will ever advance to the point where all models could be produced that way — possible as far as the body is concerned, but not, I think, the chassis…

[JimC]

15 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

I often wonder whether 3-d printing will ever advance to the point where all models could be produced that way — possible as far as the body is concerned, but not, I think, the chassis…

Too slow. 3d printed moulds for injection moulding on the other hand...